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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On September 04 2011 10:57 Toadvine wrote:
Ok, this is absolutely retarded. You may as well complain that the game is unfair because you have to wait 28 seconds for a Roach to spawn after paying for it, while a Protoss gets a Stalker instantly. Except Warpgates have these things called cooldowns, so they only get an advantage with the first warp-in, and function just like Barracks afterwards, as far as production speed goes.
Actually, I am arguing that the game is fine, you are upset that it's 'unfair'.
The main advantage of warpgates is instant reinforcement, especially to a maxed army.
The main problem with HT's used to be that they could be warped in anywhere, and instantly cast storm.
That was overpowered, and was fixed in a patch.
Right now it takes the same amount of time from deciding to build a HT or an infestor or a ghost, until they can cast EMP Fungal Storm.
That's obviously intentional, and meant to bring them in line with each other.
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The issue has been around for a while, so I don't understand why this is so complicated?
1.) Someone finds a counter to the 111, that's fine. To someone that is on a basic level great. But how about the builds that the "counter" now leave you susceptible to? You can't scout after wall off, and obs gets there too late.
2.) The effect on the ladder. PvT on Xel'Naga has become a joke. The game is supposed to be fun, the 111 is a thorn in the side of ladder play and good sportsmanship. The Terran is berated verbally for using a strat. that works, and the Toss needs PERFECT control which most lower league players don't have. Either way it doesn't foster good games or good relations.
I understand the game should be balanced for the top 1% (the Pros) and I agree with this, but if Kiwikaki, MC, Puzzle, and the likes can't win against a build order, what makes Blizzard think a NA mid league player can?
Perception is king. Sometimes whether something is true or isn't doesn't matter based on perception. When the perception is the 111 isn't balanced and the fact may be the 111 isn't balanced then I expect Blizzard intends to remedy that.
At the end of the day better communication from Blizzard would help with the balance debates immensely. If they would just put all the cards on the table so to speak and communicate better then I can assure you less rage would ensue. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't anyhow I guess.
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now. NASL season 1, IEM, MLGS, most recent code A and of the 4 final players in Code S three are Terran. While I don't put a ton of stock into tournament results for balance it's getting a bit hard to ignore. The question is how much of those victories were derived from 111 along the way? I don't want to take away from any of the brilliant play of the Terrans either! There is a point however where you must start to question.
I have heard many Terrans agree this build may be too strong. And it has been that way for a while. So if the perception from pros to Joe's is IMBA then I'm certain blizzard has a fix incoming.
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On September 04 2011 20:45 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now.
While I agree that Terran is really strong atm - and have been since release to be honest - I think it is a natural consequence of the race having the most options, and being the least scoutable.
Even if you scout something, some buildings lift off, and ... well, now you are going up against something completely different.
I mean ... if you scout a factory making a tech lab does that mean:
- blue flame hellions?
- tanks?
- banshees because the starport is hidden?
- mass marine medivac play where the factory is making addons for the barracks?
... and so on.
I think that terrans have the easiest way to hide what they are doing, and change it into something unexpected.
Which is coincidentally why TvT is the longest, most versatile matchup, with the most different workable builds and cheese ... because there are so many variations that can go up against each other.
So imho, 1-1-1 isn't the big problem.
The big problem is the versatility of 1 base terrans ability to all in through a multiple of builds, while you can never be sure that they didn't just expand behind it.
I think that making command centers unable to lift off would solve so many things ... because then you would know for a fact whether or not the terran is expanding ... much like you do with P and Z.
And that's the only thing that is making the all ins so powerful to be honest ... you can't know whether or not terran is expanding or not.
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Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1
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On September 04 2011 19:58 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 10:57 Toadvine wrote:
Ok, this is absolutely retarded. You may as well complain that the game is unfair because you have to wait 28 seconds for a Roach to spawn after paying for it, while a Protoss gets a Stalker instantly. Except Warpgates have these things called cooldowns, so they only get an advantage with the first warp-in, and function just like Barracks afterwards, as far as production speed goes. Actually, I am arguing that the game is fine, you are upset that it's 'unfair'. The main advantage of warpgates is instant reinforcement, especially to a maxed army. The main problem with HT's used to be that they could be warped in anywhere, and instantly cast storm. That was overpowered, and was fixed in a patch. Right now it takes the same amount of time from deciding to build a HT or an infestor or a ghost, until they can cast EMP Fungal Storm. That's obviously intentional, and meant to bring them in line with each other.
And they would be even more in line with each other if HTs were faster, easier to tech to, and EMP and Fungal had to be researched.
Furthermore, considering how PvT is nowadays, one can make a very strong argument that KA removal was a terrible change, and titled the matchup significantly in favor of the Terran.
The argument that KA made it too easy to defend harassment and small attacks is actually really good in my opinion. However, that could have been fixed in a less extreme way. I suppose it's just another entry in Blizzard's terrible patching history. It's not the worst change they've ever made to SC2, but it's close.
In any case, I'm done with this discussion, this isn't the place for it. I'm not going to reply to any forthcoming posts regarding this. You can PM me if you care.
On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1
It works if they mess up or do something weird/greedy. I don't even think Genius faced a normal 1/1/1 with his VR all-in - closest he got was a game against Top, where Top did a Hellion drop into a delayed 1/1/1.
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The part that is so difficult to defend has always been the very large amount of marines that come up with the blue flame hellions, or tanks, or banshees, or ravens. In PvP's which I understand is a different matchup with different mechanics the protoss that goes immortals has a fairly noticable drop in gateway units, they're expensive and require attention or else the other protoss player will immediately win outright if the immortal is dropped quickly.
Whenever I see the 1/1/1, I find the marine numbers insane considering how many tanks or banshees are also in the army.
The large flexibility of the build combined with the heavy marine count in basically every case creates this build that requires either perfect micro from the protoss or a mistake from the terran. Granted i've crushed this build at times with my unit comp, but since i can only get so much information from just one bunker a different unit comp with 1/1/1 would have outright destroyed me.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1
I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here?
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Void ray all in always gets a boost if you can pick away at the wall in.
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On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here?
Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong.
I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim.
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This build is fine. I'm mid-high EU masters P and I just played a ladder game where I accidentally picked Terran just before the game started. Now, I have maybe played 10 games as T in my life and those were joke games against friends etc (In comparison I have played ~4000 ladder games as P). So, my opponent was P and I made 1-1-1 and you probably guess the result.
I have never tried 1-1-1 but I pretty much know the buildorder and even though I executed it horribly I still won. He played pretty bad too but let's say I had accidentally picked zerg instead... I'm pretty sure I couldn't win a ZvP, as a zerg, in a million years against my level of opponents (mid-high masters).
Sad but true story 
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The protoss buff will make 111 push obsolete.
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Canada13389 Posts
On September 05 2011 01:10 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here? Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong. I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim.
Also, there will be a wall in and you can charge the void ray on the wall in supply depot which will supply block terran and with a full charge void and a few stalkers bunkers fall really quick. Then the next supply depot dies quickly as well and the tanks they are making are useless. The marine count isnt too too high when the all in timing hits so that between the 6 range stalkers and full charge void (sometimes 2) the marines melt as do the single vikings that pop out of the starport at a time.
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On September 04 2011 18:29 LookIntoTheSun wrote:
The solution to being able to tech faster is pretty simple actually. Decrease cybernetics core build time but in response, increase warp gate research time. The two build times can be balanced so that warp gate isn't any faster, but the cyber core will come out faster (this will allow for faster tech).
This will allow toss to scout faster with an observer or tech to any other route faster. The downside is that it makes things like 3 gate voidray come out even faster (but stargate time could be nerfed in response).
Void ray buff doesn't sound bad either, I can deal with it.
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This build is fine. I'm mid-high EU masters P and I just played a ladder game where I accidentally picked Terran just before the game started. Now, I have maybe played 10 games as T in my life and those were joke games against friends etc (In comparison I have played ~4000 ladder games as P). So, my opponent was P and I made 1-1-1 and you probably guess the result.
I have never tried 1-1-1 but I pretty much know the buildorder and even though I executed it horribly I still won. He played pretty bad too but let's say I had accidentally picked zerg instead... I'm pretty sure I couldn't win a ZvP, as a zerg, in a million years against my level of opponents (mid-high masters).
Sad but true story
i had the same thing ( i'm a terran but picked random by mistake) so i did 3 gate void ray and won.
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On September 05 2011 04:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 01:10 hzflank wrote:On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here? Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong. I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim. Also, there will be a wall in and you can charge the void ray on the wall in supply depot which will supply block terran and with a full charge void and a few stalkers bunkers fall really quick. Then the next supply depot dies quickly as well and the tanks they are making are useless. The marine count isnt too too high when the all in timing hits so that between the 6 range stalkers and full charge void (sometimes 2) the marines melt as do the single vikings that pop out of the starport at a time.
I find that if he sacs the depots, repairs his bunker and tank, and just stalls till the Viking comes out, he wins pretty handily. Tanks are actually really good against Stalkers, and their range makes them difficult to zone. Most Terrans lose to this by being impatient and trying to save whatever's at their front, when they can simply wait and let their build develop. Charging up a ramp with 3 Gate VR against Marines, Tanks, Vikings and SCVs usually ends really badly, and if you try to wait and contain the Terran, you lose to the push after he gets Siege Mode.
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Just went 16 Nexus for fun since Ive lost all hope vs Terran anyway. I couldnt stop the 111 with even a 16 nexus. The player that I was facing mained toss though and said he had 90% win rate since he started abusing T and was kind enough to give me the win. The End.
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On September 04 2011 22:45 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:45 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now. I think that terrans have the easiest way to hide what they are doing, and change it into something unexpected. Which is coincidentally why TvT is the longest, most versatile matchup, with the most different workable builds and cheese ... because there are so many variations that can go up against each other.
That is complete nonsense and doesn't even make sense, I'm pretty sure you don't play terran otherwise you wouldn't say that the reason for long games is the variety of builds, that actually is very wrong.
The reason TvT is the mirror matchup with the longest games is because it's really hard to attack in TvT, bunkers and siege tanks make it next to impossible to really engage in a straight up fight. In TvT you mainly want to be the defender and not the attacker simply because siege tanks are so much stronger than unsieged tanks. (of course when you have more than 3 or 4 of them, but even then it can be a very bad trade for the attacker).
Mech in general is a unit composition that kind of forces longer games, and Mech is extremely popular and arguably much stronger than Bio-Mech in TvT.
Your argument that tvt is the longest matchup because of the variety of build and cheeses is completely wrong, because that would actually result in shorter games and not longer games.
If you really want to win a TvT you need to be extremely methodical, you need to drop, harrass and kind of wear out your opponent, which takes time, if you just 1a in tvt chances are that you'll get destroyed by siege tanks.
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does anyone else reverting the warp-gate timing after the next patch will make everything better? isn't the reason that this build is so strong is that it can't really be punished early game even if scouted. If toss still had 4 gate wouldn't that solve the problem? and with the recent patch coming in ''solving pvp'' would it make it any better?
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On September 05 2011 06:18 Abusion wrote:
does anyone else reverting the warp-gate timing after the next patch will make everything better? isn't the reason that this build is so strong is that it can't really be punished early game even if scouted. If toss still had 4 gate wouldn't that solve the problem? and with the recent patch coming in ''solving pvp'' would it make it any better?
There is no warp gate time change for patch 1.4. They are adding 30 seconds to blink research time, but warp gate still takes 160 seconds.
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On September 05 2011 04:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 04:23 ZeromuS wrote:On September 05 2011 01:10 hzflank wrote:On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here? Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong. I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim. Also, there will be a wall in and you can charge the void ray on the wall in supply depot which will supply block terran and with a full charge void and a few stalkers bunkers fall really quick. Then the next supply depot dies quickly as well and the tanks they are making are useless. The marine count isnt too too high when the all in timing hits so that between the 6 range stalkers and full charge void (sometimes 2) the marines melt as do the single vikings that pop out of the starport at a time. I find that if he sacs the depots, repairs his bunker and tank, and just stalls till the Viking comes out, he wins pretty handily. Tanks are actually really good against Stalkers, and their range makes them difficult to zone. Most Terrans lose to this by being impatient and trying to save whatever's at their front, when they can simply wait and let their build develop. Charging up a ramp with 3 Gate VR against Marines, Tanks, Vikings and SCVs usually ends really badly, and if you try to wait and contain the Terran, you lose to the push after he gets Siege Mode.
this is true I think, most of the Terran doing 1-1-1 when I get Protoss(Random) will try to snipe the voidrays with their marines as quick as possible even when there are stalkers and zealot just below the voids on hold command :-/
but if they wait too long, they can easily lost their rax and then the only anti air they have are vikings which do nothing against stalkers and zealots
although if you do voids all in and they go mass marines-medivac with stim then you'll die pretty quick
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EPT
