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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On September 04 2011 06:18 cekkmt wrote:
How about increasing the amount of energy a templar has? which is what the BW upgrade did, instead of giving it more energy to start
It did give it more energy to start as well, just not as much more. Having KA become what it was in BW would probably work quite well. Not sure if they'd just put it back in at this point though.
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On September 04 2011 06:24 MrSalamandra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:18 cekkmt wrote:
How about increasing the amount of energy a templar has? which is what the BW upgrade did, instead of giving it more energy to start It did give it more energy to start as well, just not as much more. Having KA become what it was in BW would probably work quite well. Not sure if they'd just put it back in at this point though.
Problem is that HTs are so easy to snipe these days with Ghosts around. A 250/250 energy HT would be a liability more than anything.
I'd be interested in a KA that increased energy restoration rate. That would be cool. Although that would have no effect on the 1-1-1. HTs could be a reasonable response, if they weren't so gas-heavy and didn't take so long to get to. However, any buff that would make that easier to do would also break the lategame, so I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon.
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On September 04 2011 06:24 MrSalamandra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:18 cekkmt wrote:
How about increasing the amount of energy a templar has? which is what the BW upgrade did, instead of giving it more energy to start It did give it more energy to start as well, just not as much more. Having KA become what it was in BW would probably work quite well. Not sure if they'd just put it back in at this point though.
A standard HT starts with 50 energy. A HT with KA starts with 75, with 50 required for Feedback and 75 for Storm.
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are.
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There's actually a templar change that would help versus the 1/1/1 metagame quite a bit: Let feedback hit cloaked units. Make it so that you only have to click near a target in a somewhat similar way to what you can do with the minimap on small maps.
It wouldn't really affect the 1/1/1 push that much, but you could rush twilight tech and still be a little safer versus cloaked banshees, which would let the protoss player put out more units.
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United States7483 Posts
Hey terran, I'll make you guys a deal. We get flux vanes back, you guys don't get any more nerfs. Deal?
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Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible.
Edit: the problem though. is that you lack the detection so you have to be really careful to watch out for the tech lab in the staport upgrating something and to not get tricked.
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On September 04 2011 06:36 SeriouR wrote:
Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible.
How do you know he's not getting a raven, though.
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On September 04 2011 06:36 SeriouR wrote:
Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible.
Edit: the problem though. is that you lack the detection so you have to be really careful to watch out for the tech lab in the staport upgrating something and to not get tricked.
It woudln't affect the reinforcements almost whatsover :o.
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On September 04 2011 06:37 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:36 SeriouR wrote:
Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible. How do you know he's not getting a raven, though.
Well, you see it when looking at his army in the moment of the engagement.
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I'm still pretty sure the best way to stop the 10 min push iteration of the 1-1-1 is with chargelots. Scouting it early enough is an issue unless you go 1 gate expand into robo + then extra gates.
So basically 1gate expand into gate/robo + gates. Scout and throw down council (or do it as just part of the build) chrono charge like a madman and spam zealots while adding 1 or 2 more gates. You can even take guys off gas at some point and I'd leave that to a better/active player to figure out.
Probes have to be cut at some point but it doesn't matter if it allows you to keep your nexus alive. And the improved mineral efficiency from being on 2 bases makes up for mules.
I've tried it vs the computer just for timings and getting 15-18 zealots + 3 sentries + 3-4 stalkers and an obs.
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I'm not saying you can stop the earlier push timings with this but I know for certain you can easily hold the 10 min push we saw on puma vs MC on iem with that build. You even keep your nexus alive.
The most important thing is to make sure the zealots are under GS the whole time. Its very common for sentries to start attacking and leaving the zealots just out of range of the guardian shield.
Once you survive you get a robo bay and just get a couple colossus to stop the next push cold.
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On September 04 2011 06:39 SeriouR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:37 Resistentialism wrote:On September 04 2011 06:36 SeriouR wrote:
Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible. How do you know he's not getting a raven, though. Well, you see it when looking at his army in the moment of the engagement.
Unfortunately, if he does get a Raven then your entire build is no better than just a mass Gateway build after fast expo... which dies horribly to any kind of 1-1-1.
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Ahaha, actually that's about the only way to beat it. It's just it loses to a bunch of other stuff that the terran can often do reactively. That's kind of the point to the OP of this thread.
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if you do 15 nexus you're dead to a bunker rush <3
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On September 04 2011 06:42 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:39 SeriouR wrote:On September 04 2011 06:37 Resistentialism wrote:On September 04 2011 06:36 SeriouR wrote:
Has anybody tryed 1gate FE into hallucionation into 6-7 gatE? even using hallcuonated immortals or VR in the battle could pay off if he is not getting a raven (and if he uses scans he doesnt have mules so his reinforcement is much slower) just an idea, i'm going to try it out as soon as possible. How do you know he's not getting a raven, though. Well, you see it when looking at his army in the moment of the engagement. Unfortunately, if he does get a Raven then your entire build is no better than just a mass Gateway build after fast expo... which dies horribly to any kind of 1-1-1.
Actually, fast expo into mass gateway can defend 1/1/1. It's the tech builds that are suffering.
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On September 04 2011 06:49 Kiarip wrote:
Actually, fast expo into mass gateway can defend 1/1/1. It's the tech builds that are suffering.
Are there any replays for this or are you just making baseless assertions?
If you opponent goes banshee, sees your mass Gateways and researches cloak (like, ever), you just straight up die to him. Even with the delayed cloak. If your opponent has already gone for the cloak version of 1-1-1, then you die EVEN FASTER.
Even if your opponent doesn't go cloak, I'm still sceptical that you can take on the Terran army with just Gateway units, let alone the second or third waves.
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So, if we would have a way to get detection without getting an obs this push wouldn't be a problem right? We could go straight for twilight and/or storm... If we could hallucinate observers with detection for example... just a thought..
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If there were a particularly good way to deal with this build, like even when you're just straight up metagaming and guess they are doing it, this thread wouldn't be this long.
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On September 04 2011 06:52 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:49 Kiarip wrote:
Actually, fast expo into mass gateway can defend 1/1/1. It's the tech builds that are suffering. Are there any replays for this or are you just making baseless assertions? If you opponent goes banshee, sees your mass Gateways and researches cloak (like, ever), you just straight up die to him. Even with the delayed cloak. If your opponent has already gone for the cloak version of 1-1-1, then you die EVEN FASTER. Even if your opponent doesn't go cloak, I'm still sceptical that you can take on the Terran army with just Gateway units, let alone the second or third waves.
That's the whole point of this thread... did you read it?
1/1/1 can be defended by a fast expand. But fast expands are demolished by early aggression. The problem with the 1/1/1 is that it is a coin flip... You NEED to FE vs a 1/1/1, but if you do that, you are basically forfeiting the game against early aggression.
If you do a safe build, you lose to 1/1/1...
If you do a risky build, you lose to early aggression...
You need to flip the coin at the beginning of the game and choose which build you want to lose to. Or hope you get lucky...
THAT is the problem.
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Giving banshee cloak the same treatment stim got would help.
A huge problem is terran versatility. They can get a very versatile army out of one base. And if you fail to account for banshees then you're in trouble. Worse, if you fail to account for cloak, then you're dead.
Because of this, most protoss make at least 2 observers upon seeing a banshee. That huge investment in robotics hinders investing in starport+twilight. You can maximally choose one more and it will still hurt your army size.
Removing banshee cloak would be ideal but then that unit would lose a lot of it's appeal. A longer research time and perhaps more cost might be seen as a compromise. At least then you could work out timings where you delay the robotics.
There's a problem in general with invicible flying units that early in the game that do so much damage. In brood war the wraith could cloak but it didn't do much damage against ground and so you could basically ignore it. In sc2 it's impossible to ignore the banshee. Having to go robotics every game that early really messes up the flexibility of the matchup.
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On September 04 2011 07:04 Majk wrote:
So, if we would have a way to get detection without getting an obs this push wouldn't be a problem right? We could go straight for twilight and/or storm... If we could hallucinate observers with detection for example... just a thought..
Hallucinate will never be the answer. Warpgate research time has been nerfed so hard that hallucinate takes AGES to get to and the ability to hallucinate units for combat is a shot in the dark because 1/1/1 often uses a raven. I love hallucinate (mostly cuz I love templar builds over robo builds) but it would need a major buff to be combat applicable or provide early scouting (something ridic like costing more but not being a research which would prolly be op).
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EPT
