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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Thanks for this. I'd like to highlight what I view as the most important part of this post, which is the relationship of protoss scouting to time. Of course, if the protoss knows 100% that the terran will 1/1/1, then they will nexus first and tech, before adding mass gateways. However, the time at which the 1/1/1 differentiates from other terran builds is much later than the time at which the probe is driven from the base by marines, and is well before observers or hallucination would spot it. That makes it extremely difficult for protoss to react perfectly to 1/1/1 at that specific timing, despite what their pre-game suspicions might be.
This is a different critique than the common zerg complaint, which is that zerg has few scouting options. Instead, protoss has many scouting options, but because the 1/1/1 materializes in the part of the game where no race has acceptable scouting options, and because it is so powerful in an extremely specific way, it is simply impossible for protoss to react perfectly to a 1/1/1 without taking an insane risk. 1/1/1's thrive on small maps where playing nexus first could be insanity; if the terran is not going 1/1/1, then a common marauder/marine poke will put the protoss almost game-endingly behind. In the case of zerg, a zerg playing "safe" might lose to some all-ins but delay others, and might fall behind to some economic play, but may come back and win in other matches. For protoss against the 1/1/1, it's basically a scenario of "counter perfectly, or stand absolutely no chance". The fact is that no vZ strategy comes close to this description.
It's also crucial to mention that even if anticipated and prepared for, a 1/1/1 is almost impossible to stop anyway. If executed at the level achieved by mid-range professional Korean terrans, than there is simply no recourse. Even with a perfect counter in theory, protoss still relies on terran to make a mistake in attacking.
This is at the heart of the 1/1/1 problem.
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On August 22 2011 05:57 vOdToasT wrote:
So it's basically a coinflip. Prepare for 1 / 1 / 1, or prepare for other builds. Guess wrong and you lose.
I'm starting to get used to this.
Hi, welcome to our world, sincerely zerg
User was warned for this post
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On August 22 2011 05:59 Noocta wrote:
The 1/1/1 against protoss remember me of the 5rax reaper against Z thing.
Noone knew if it was really imbalanced, but still.
Protoss will have to roll with that problem until HotS anyway...
What makes you think that there will be no patch out until HotS anyways? Source please
@OP I agree completely. At least on ladder protoss might have a hard time but the tournaments shouldn't really be suffering from this kind of imbalance. I mean just use mostly macro maps, Iccup maps, GSL maps and to some level certain Blizzard maps(maybe 10% of the blizz maps). However we still see cups or tournaments use Metalopolis etc.
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As as Protoss player, I'm going to say that sure, it sucks right now to have to deal with the power of this build. Yet, it's just another strategy that is new and strong that hasn't been countered properly yet. I wouldn't worry too much about it, just keep playing and tweaking your builds and conserving your units better and eventually a solid counter will be found.
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On August 22 2011 05:52 Archs wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pLEzA.jpg) User was warned for this postUser was banned for this post.
Nice first post eh.
And thanks for the post... I've been trying to explain to a lot of people that call Protoss dumb for expanding against a one base all in 
However he didn't say 1 gate - robo - expand. It lets you scout it much earlier which could pay for the lost mining time
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This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Allin is possibly too strong in general.
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In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so.
I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution.
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On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
Thanks for your input. Now all Protoss need to do is wait for a massive buff from Blizzard. Shouldn't take long. We all owe you a service of gratitude for solving this problem once and for all.
Perhaps, much like how Zerg handle a 2rax bunker rush, Protosses do need to take some risks in their build order. A 15 Nexus or a 1gate expand will be more vulnerable to other all-ins, early aggression, but surely pulling probes and microing against a 2rax expand or a marine+scv all-in are worth it if you manage to survive.
For a long time Protoss have had a number of incredibly safe expansion builds. Perhaps they need to incorporate risk into their openings in order to hold this off.
Although I do agree, the 1-1-1 all-in does seem somewhat imbalanced. Although I do take issue with anyone who says it requires zero skill to execute.
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On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
with Terran's 24 workers - they get 840/240 per a minute while Protoss gets 680/240
No, terran mines with 24 worker as much minerals and gas as protoss.
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Can we wait another month or two before patching? See if protoss can develop a counter on their own. If it's still imba by then, then sure, go ahead and patch.
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On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
Q : You can engage in Terran army before they contain you and hold it off
A : Very true, but then the second wave is impossible to hold off.
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I dont like this attitude. When Z did the roach + ling thing vs 3G expo everyone was complaining about how strong it was. Protoss players slowly figured out how to hold it and now it can work but most likely not.
I would not say that it's impossible to hold untill I see the protoss players try some other things.
I am a zerg player so I can't tell you what you should do / not do but I think it's too early to swing the nerfbat and pray that blizzard solves it!
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Basically, this is why Killer went Nexus first every game vs Terran, because he sees no way of holding off 1/1/1 either way. For Protoss, if it is true that 1 base colossus cannot beat the build, then Protoss have to early expand, which means they cannot scout the 1/1/1 and be safe vs every other build. What's worse is even if they did a 1gate expand into robo into observers, they still have an extremely hard time to hold it off. Game 1 of MC Puma did not surprise me. They traded armies and T removed a base, therefore T was ahead because he could rebuild his army twice way faster than Protoss.
Also note that Protoss did a 1 gate expand into fast robo which is one of 2 ways to hold it off. Why does a 1 base all in require such supreme play and no mistakes? Its a 1 base all in! These should be the easiest thing to hold off in the world if scouted at all, not virtually impossible. Imagine the feeling of going 3 gate expand, setting up the contain, and taking a siege shot. You now know that you winning this game is entirely dependant on the Terran screwing up (Terrans like to forget siege mode, the raven, and sometimes get supply blocked or only build 2 barracks).
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On August 22 2011 06:08 Lordwar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
with Terran's 24 workers - they get 840/240 per a minute while Protoss gets 680/240 No, terran mines with 24 worker as much minerals and gas as protoss.
Mules
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Even if you know its coming early on you can still die to it, there are many different variations and timings to the 1-1-1 all in build as well, its not impossible to stop if u know exactly what he is doing and engage in the perfect position but you can't always have those things even if you are a good player.
I'd also like to add that this build has been around since the beta and even a year into the game I think most protosses can agree that it is a low risk high reward build for the terran.
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On August 22 2011 06:09 Mungosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:08 Lordwar wrote:On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
with Terran's 24 workers - they get 840/240 per a minute while Protoss gets 680/240 No, terran mines with 24 worker as much minerals and gas as protoss. Mules
Then he should have said that with mules!
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I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE?
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Anyone think that besides the marine dps, the auto repairing SCVs soaking up zealot hits coupled with mule mining allowing for continued marine production is the kicker for 1-1-1 all ins?
Without the scv wall, PDD isn't too bad because you can focus on zealots and clean up the ground forces with a warp in of stalkers to take out the banshees later.
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On August 22 2011 06:04 WarrickHunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:57 vOdToasT wrote:
So it's basically a coinflip. Prepare for 1 / 1 / 1, or prepare for other builds. Guess wrong and you lose.
I'm starting to get used to this. Hi, welcome to our world, sincerely zerg
Admittedly I'd say zerg is the strongest race now.
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I think the counter to 1-1-1 is time. How many games have your Protoss players played against bio builds? How long did it take people to kind of quiet down about Marauders realizing they weren't the end all most imba unit in the world? Look at the drop in Terran win % when archons got changed. I think Terrans have been great at adapting to every patch change or meta game change, and this 1-1-1 stuff just came out and people seem so unwilling to continue trying for more than a month.
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Why all this fuzz about this build now? this build has been around like forever?
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good write up, i hate watching gsl and seeing a 1/1/1 all in, so strong.
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EPT
