EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 5
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
|
mazqo
Finland368 Posts
| ||
|
Huntz
164 Posts
I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. 2 gate robo is one-basing (look at the OP for why that doesn't work) because the expo doesn't pay for itself. 1 gate robo and 1 gate star are INCREDIBLY weak to standard 2 rax FE pressure. In fact 1 gate star might straight up die to it if you go phoenix first. | ||
|
Jayrod
1820 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. If Blizzard chooses to nerf the 1-1-1 allins, they are truly balancing with the metagame. Balancing with the metagame is the completely WRONG way to balance the game. Theyre are BOTH wrong. This isn't broodwar. Just because a build is safe from "not dying" doesnt mean its safe for winning the game. These "safe" builds put you astronomically behind, hence why both of those players are unable to compete with their peers consistently. | ||
|
HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. hey tyler, i like this insight alot. Ive stopped going for the fast 15 nex/1 gate expand builds to do safer builds. Ive been favoring 1gate star build to defend vs 1-1-1, and its worked quite well as i can snipe a banshee easily, etc. I lose when i go 1gate star when the T actually did some sort of rax build, most likely 2rax. JW if you go phoenix and scout 2rax, what do you follow up with? this is my main reason ive started to go 1gate robo or 3gate robo instead, but i was really liking the use of phoenix in my play. | ||
|
EL33T_COL
Canada68 Posts
| ||
|
hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
| ||
|
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). | ||
|
FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On August 22 2011 05:57 vOdToasT wrote: So it's basically a coinflip. Prepare for 1 / 1 / 1, or prepare for other builds. Guess wrong and you lose. I'm starting to get used to this. Hehe sounds just like what Zergs were saying a while back.. "Coin flip.. Don't know if I'm gonna prepare for 2rax.. 4rax... expo..." Hmm. I think it's better to let several months pass before deciding anything too drastic about Terran being imbalanced and whatnot | ||
|
Rkie
United States1278 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote: This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout. Allin is possibly too strong in general. -- In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so. I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. Okay, and what happens when the banshees gain the cloak ability? No robo for observer means you just lost the game. I have seen this build a decent amount on ladder, and the only way I have been able to beat it is by going 1 gate robo expand. The fast observer tells me what terran is doing, and if i see 1/1/1, I rush to charge and high templar tech. Feedback and storm is essential imo because marines die to storm so quickly. I usually try to get as much gas from my expansion before I give it up, simply because it is so gas heavy. It works every now and then, but this is the only way i have beaten it so far. | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens? Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly. Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. | ||
|
MiningSchuhu
Germany53 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers. Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). Marauders? There are no marauders in a normal 1-1-1 all in :< | ||
|
sOda~
United Kingdom441 Posts
| ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:16 Whiplash wrote: It wouldn't place you in a good position, and they have the potential to break you by simply having too many units. They could prob cancel your nexus 99% of the time too. My experience is much different. 1gate star either breaks even or gives a huge advantage (if they put any units on your ramp) against 2rax FE. 1gate robo sometimes has to cancel against a very aggressive 2rax FE, but most of the time does not. Keep in mind that the standard follow-up to these openings is not to build a nexus but rather to build more gates. 1gate star is followed by another gate and 1gate robo is usually followed by 2 more gates, though sometimes one additional gate is enough. | ||
|
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 MiningSchuhu wrote: Marauders? There are no marauders in a normal 1-1-1 all in :< They always tend to build 1 or so. But if no maruaders it seems much easier, marines are really bad vs stalkers. | ||
|
samd
United States77 Posts
Add in the fact that 1/1/1 can hold every currently discovered allin by protoss. EVERY SINGLE ALLIN. I'll let that sink in for a moment while you continue to cry about 4gate, which can be stopped with SCV's, marines, and a bunker easily. I still have a lot of trouble vs 4gate with sentries to FF bunker repair. As soon as the front breaks, I'm screwed (But I don't do the 1/1/1) | ||
|
Billd
Canada210 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 illsick wrote: With like 4gate, 6gate, or dts builds... scouted or not, people know how to beat it and know the timings for it. With this build, even if you know it is coming, it is difficult to counter or beat it. Well people know how to beat those builds and know the timings for them because they've been in existence and widely used for some time now. This 1/1/1 variant is fairly young and has really taken off in popularity recently in tournament play. With time, hopefully, this build will fall into the same category as the builds you mentioned when people's experience with combating the build matures. That being said, it is really strong! :D | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 Rkie wrote: Okay, and what happens when the banshees gain the cloak ability? No robo for observer means you just lost the game. I have seen this build a decent amount on ladder, and the only way I have been able to beat it is by going 1 gate robo expand. The fast observer tells me what terran is doing, and if i see 1/1/1, I rush to charge and high templar tech. Feedback and storm is essential imo because marines die to storm so quickly. I usually try to get as much gas from my expansion before I give it up, simply because it is so gas heavy. It works every now and then, but this is the only way i have beaten it so far. I wanna see replays of you getting storm by 9:40, or earlier if its the earlier 111 | ||
|
Fission
Canada1184 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers. Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). It just depends on which variation of the 1/1/1 they do. If they opted for cloak banshee, you'd be in a world of hurt. That the real root of the problem - it's that protoss cannot reliably scout what the terran is doing until it's already too late. Note: if you mean to say that you actually "kill" the terran player with gate pressure, then yes, they are really terrible. 1/1/1 holds a full-on 4 gate without breaking a sweat when executed right. | ||
|
kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote: 1-gate robo and 1-gate star allows you to get information on whether or not to add gates (for defense of the 1-1-1) or expand. It's a great cross-roads kinda build. And the article is saying that if you do go 1-gate robo into 3-gate robo, Protoss will still lose as they will just bunker up and contain. When the bunker is up, it's basically over. The article is saying that an expand is a necessity to counter it. Playing 1-base and being more defensive does not help. It's like telling Zerg the only way to counter 2-rax is to build their second hatch in base. | ||
|
Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. If Blizzard chooses to nerf the 1-1-1 allins, they are truly balancing with the metagame. Balancing with the metagame is the completely WRONG way to balance the game. Did you not read the OP? You need to expand to have enough production to hold off this push. If you 2 gate robo you are going to have less units by the time this all-in hits so how would it be better at holding it off? | ||
| ||
