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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one.
They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ?
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On August 22 2011 06:27 hmunkey wrote:
Basically protosses are now complaining about defending builds the same way zergs have been for the last year. Why not just do what you told the zergs to do and stop whining?
A Zerg with maphacks at the diamond level can hold off any 1 base all in from Terran even if controled by IMMvp (maybe...)
A Protoss with maphacks at the diamond level cannot defend 1/1/1 from IMMvp any day of the week.
Basically, Protoss can't deal with it, even if they scout it, which is something Zerg doesn't have to worry about most of the time. (sometimes Zerg scout too late, but whatever)
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On August 22 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:22 Jayrod wrote:On August 22 2011 06:11 Huntz wrote:
I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE? It is, and that's exactly why Tyler was plain wrong. I root for the guy when he plays, but watching him put himself behind every game by playing overly safe is discouraging as a fan 1-gate robo and 1-gate star allows you to get information on whether or not to add gates (for defense of the 1-1-1) or expand. It's a great cross-roads kinda build.
Thats the problem though... you get that information but if that information reveals that they already have a command center you're already way behind. If CC's couldnt lift off you would eliminate the coinflip about whether theyre "allin"ing you or whether theyve put 400+ minerals into an expansion. 1 gate robo and 1 gate star put you behind the second your phoenix or observer sees their command center.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:24 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:20 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. Exactly. Wait what? The op just said that amongst the Pro players, they all agree that an early expand is the ONLY way of defeating the 1/1/1. If you open up 1 base, you are gonna get rolled by the 1/1/1 even if you scout it. Of course op may be wrong, but for the sake of argument, lets assume he is right. What does a 2 gate robo achieve now? It basically allows you to see that he is going 1/1/1 and that you are going to lose the game because your nexus is too late. This is correct. The advantage to going one base options is that you can gg faster because you'll spot the 1/1/1 with certainty before it moves out. You might even lose your observer to the raven.
Expanding is optimal for the same reason that 14 nexus in BW put protoss equal or ahead, even if the terran killed off the nexus. It gives protoss an econ advantage because of the expansion but also because of the additional probes produced. The nexus will be up in enough time with a 1 gate expand to repay it's cost. It also delays the terran push, and allows the protoss to get real-estate in a more open part of the map. The problem is that it still loses to 1/1/1.
If you went 2 gate robo, you might have an extra immortal or two, but you wouldn't have enough stalkers or sentries to kill off the terran air, or enough zealots to tank the marines. You might even have a colossus, but with much less gateway units because of it, and no thermal lance. Or if you rushed to thermal lance, you'd have a colossus, but nothing to prevent banshee/raven from killing it.
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On August 22 2011 06:24 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote:
This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Allin is possibly too strong in general.
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In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so.
I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. Against cloaked banshees and tanks ?
Do you even play Protoss? You NEED a robotics to scout - that is P's only form of scouting apart from probes. Without confirming its a 1-1-1 you're just playing a guessing game which could potentially put you far behind. And btw most good 1-1-1's as far as I know should come a while before you can finish charge, unless you get it super fast which means you would probably lose anyway due to lack of units.
Forge as well? Can't get grades in time and cannons won't do crap
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On August 22 2011 06:28 MiningSchuhu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers.
Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). Marauders? There are no marauders in a normal 1-1-1 all in :<
They can meta game you with one or maybe 2. It hurts the build, but the look on your face as a 1-1-1 comes down the pike is worth the mineral value.
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On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one.
And for a while Korean pros couldn't stop marine/SCV all-ins, 6 gates, blueflame/marine, etc. etc.
Just because it hasn't been figured out yet doesn't mean it's OP.
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On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
with Terran's 24 workers - they get 840/240 per a minute while Protoss gets 680/240 (could be a slight variation) - considering Protoss army is about composition, with that much of incomes you can't get a good composition that can fight 1/1/1 army. .
I do believe the terran still has an advantage, however, I do believe in getting everything right conceptually in order to make a argument.
1. Terran is using SCVs to make buildings. Subtract those from the count. It's one at a time for supply depots. One or two more for the other buildings.
2. Protoss can chronoboost out workers. I'm assuming they will have, until they suspect this build is coming. I'd give protoss another 1-2 workers on terran.
3. In order to build the orbital and have those mules, the terran has to sacrifice some of his SCV production. It takes 2 SCV build times to build an orbital command, but it also costs 150 minerals.
So I'd say the Protoss is roughly 5-7 probes ahead in terms of mining rate BEFORE mules.
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On August 22 2011 06:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:16 Whiplash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:11 Huntz wrote:
I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE? It wouldn't place you in a good position, and they have the potential to break you by simply having too many units. They could prob cancel your nexus 99% of the time too. My experience is much different. 1gate star either breaks even or gives a huge advantage (if they put any units on your ramp) against 2rax FE. 1gate robo sometimes has to cancel against a very aggressive 2rax FE, but most of the time does not. Keep in mind that the standard follow-up to these openings is not to build a nexus but rather to build more gates. 1gate star is followed by another gate and 1gate robo is usually followed by 2 more gates, though sometimes one additional gate is enough.
Can anyone provide replays of 1 gate star openings against reasonably skilled players(pro if possible)? I have never seen this build work and would love to see how its done.
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just go 3 gate+ stargate and u win beat 1/1/1 :D
it works masters here/
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MC basically beat the build on Zel'Naga but threw away a lead.
Then Puma didn't do it in the other games?!
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Terran is strong vs Protoss at the moment yes; but their strength is way more complicated than just one build.
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Why is that Tyler thinks there is some forms of scouting this out? The problem with most Protoss players having problems with this is they decide their builds long before they actually react to any information or tells they have. Even your first probe can see if a fast 2nd gas is coming, or you can just gas steal which really hurts very specific timings.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers.
Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer).
well, I think this topic is about the 1-1-1 build. Marauders are usually not in that mix; that build consists of tanks, banshees, raven and marines mostly. So you probably played against a different build?
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On August 22 2011 06:32 RusHXceL wrote:
just go 3 gate+ stargate and u win beat 1/1/1 :D
it works masters here/
I have many replays of defending 3gate sg against masters and gm level players. It's a fairly easy build to scout.
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On August 22 2011 05:55 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me. Link to 90% stat?
100% win rate in gsl
im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous
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On August 22 2011 06:29 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:28 MiningSchuhu wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers.
Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). Marauders? There are no marauders in a normal 1-1-1 all in :< They always tend to build 1 or so. But if no maruaders it seems much easier, marines are really bad vs stalkers.
Thats why there are banshees or tanks to support them, they do well against Stalkers, if u go to heavy on the stalkers you will get crushed eventually by a well placed pdd or just the amout of banshee / tank (considering that sniping would result in way to much dmg recieved by the marines)
On August 22 2011 06:29 sOda~ wrote:
to say a 1base collosi build fares badly vs 1/1/1 seems kinda dumb. You can easily have 2 collosi out b4 the terran has an army large enough to make and threat of a contain and ur collosi just destroys their marines.
2 Colossi without range, each one down in one volley of the full terran force (as you stand right in range)
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On August 22 2011 06:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:24 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote:
This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Allin is possibly too strong in general.
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In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so.
I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. Against cloaked banshees and tanks ? Do you even play Protoss? You NEED a robotics to scout - that is P's only form of scouting apart from probes. Without confirming its a 1-1-1 you're just playing a guessing game which could potentially put you far behind. And btw most good 1-1-1's as far as I know should come a while before you can finish charge, unless you get it super fast which means you would probably lose anyway due to lack of units. Forge as well? Can't get grades in time and cannons won't do crap
Really??
What about hallucination? Or a timing attack? Or just using the tells? (Marine count in particular)
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On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ?
That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:16 Whiplash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:11 Huntz wrote:
I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE? It wouldn't place you in a good position, and they have the potential to break you by simply having too many units. They could prob cancel your nexus 99% of the time too. My experience is much different. 1gate star either breaks even or gives a huge advantage (if they put any units on your ramp) against 2rax FE. 1gate robo sometimes has to cancel against a very aggressive 2rax FE, but most of the time does not. Keep in mind that the standard follow-up to these openings is not to build a nexus but rather to build more gates. 1gate star is followed by another gate and 1gate robo is usually followed by 2 more gates, though sometimes one additional gate is enough. I don't think 1 gate stargate can effectively hold off a 1/1/1 though. Phoenix against that many marines? 3 gate void ray all-in is an acceptable answer to a 1/1/1, but the only counter to all-in shouldn't be an earlier all-in.
As for 1 gate robo, I'm skeptical that can handle a 1/1/1 either. I can't believe you'll have enough gas to deal with the terran air.
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On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ?
Lots of things changed. Steppes of War became Taldarim altar. Terrans realised adding bunkers was better than pulling every scv so it was no longer all in (but Zergs still die to bunker rushes to this day), and also, Zerg did not die to this for 1 month straight, they won quite a lot of games Terran went all in. They lost a fair share of coin flipping games due to steppes, blistering, delta, jungle basin, close position metal and LT but nothing more.
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EPT
