• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:52
CEST 02:52
KST 09:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3
StarCraft 2
General
The New Patch Killed Mech! Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy herO joins T1 Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BW caster Sayle BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [ASL20] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
[I] TvP Strategies and Build Roaring Currents ASL final [I] TvZ Strategies and Builds Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1484 users

Stormgate initial thoughts

Blogs > Agh
Post a Reply
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1002 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-16 10:21:37
March 16 2024 09:55 GMT
#1
Apparently a kind little birdy sent me alpha/beta access a looong time ago to an archaic email. Although originally ignorant to that I've had access for quite awhile but just didn't have time to play. After finally getting to play a decent handful of games, and given that the game is on hiatus for a bit might as well give my thoughts.



So after the initial a custom game with each race to build everything and see the all of the units and their functionality and upgrades I jumped into ranked with the Human/Vanguard/Terran race.


Initial thought: Pretty underwhelming, but potential is there.


Whenever I approach a game I avoid any type out outside influence and like to figure things out on my own.

The only thing I have peeked at were the patch notes, and I think it's clear by the drastic number changes every build that there isn't really any point in commenting on balance since it's quite a mess, with 30-50% number adjustments being thrown around loosely.
(Memories of WoL beta, hell even post launch where Zerg actually had nothing to respond to the range of early reapers or hellions come to mind.)

So instead I'll just focus on overall design and feel.



The positives:

Units actually feel micro-able.
They successfully dodged sc2's meat grinder archetype. You can still lose a lot in mere seconds to something like Atlas(aka Siege Tanks) but it takes a lot of negligence to do so.


Early skirmishes and gambits can be enjoyable. Non mirror is a little too volatile.
The fact that it is interesting to ponder and consider the economic state of a strategy that will net you near full map control and/or force defense versus a more pure economy/"turtle-y" approach is neat, upon first glance.
I commend them trying to minimalize polarizing forfeitures of map control with certain early units and tech choices, but it's going to take quite some time to hit the balance correctly, and different maps will impact it drastically.


I've seen a lot of complaints from people that are frustrated that units feel 'clunky' or get stuck. I cannot stress enough that this an overwhelming positive for the game.
This allows players to showcase skill in both attacking and defending. The units all behave logically and attempt do do what you tell them to. I thoroughly disagree when people suggest that workers should have advanced 'smart-pathing' when trying to build or repair something.


Building grid feels intuitive. Command Posts have the similar false corner that CC's in StarCraft have always had but it's easy to make completely tight walls, despite people claiming otherwise (lol).
If they were to touch anything the edges and bottom of some ramps getting an extra hex of collision to avoid some unnatural looking clipping and pathing


As I touched on the creep system adds a refreshing element. The way it incentivizes early units but not in a mandatory fashion is really well done. (At least for now, but there is plenty of room for napkin math and number crunching for a given map.)

Applying pressure vs someone playing a defensive tech or economic opening until they stabilize then transferring your map control to take "their" creep camps is something I enjoy, and akin to how some war3 games play out.

All of this leads playstyle expression. It's a good indicator that even in the games infancy there seems to be multiple approaches that all seem to be viable. A meta is bound to form but as it stands now there doesn't seem to be many instances you can be grossly 'wrong' in the developing stages.



The negatives:

The UI layout. I would expect a lot more out of a game in [[current year]] "beta". Side thought: We really need more defining terms to describe whatever gets thrown into this umbrella.

Having worked on some games and projects I know that it's very difficult to justify and push for refined gui and interface elements when they are often scrapped and remade resulting in the dreaded pure time waste.
However, while you can ignore things like the fischer-price tier command card you can't do the same for things that actually convey information. Idle worker visibility and the limitations for hotkeys jump out at you immediately.
The latter being very perplexing as I know that it alone has turned off quite a lot of people from testing the game more than they would have. Not to mention key-binds failing to save, and a lot of tooltips being static (lol).


Single map for matchmaking. This just makes it more difficult to accurately assess the power of units and their interactions.


Unit progress and visibility. The global hotkey production keys idea is amazing and incredible in terms of a general Quality of Life step. However the information that is lost is significant compared to just traditionally hot-keying the structures. The latter gives you clear and concise information about how many structures and their production queue, where as the "QoL" version gives you a garbled mess of only units being produced with no other indicators.

Potential multiplayer/pvp pitfall. Traditional RTS gameplay will always be niche and unappealing to the majority. There is currently almost no indication and communication of how they are going about balancing accessibility, game modes, customs, and ways to encourage cross pollination.
If I get a chance for developer interviews and questions I know the one that I'm most curious about. What amount of consideration and testing is not only given, but considered adequate for unit interactions? For example, low level players that would just build units and send them idly attacking with little concern for micro. How deep are we diving into the math and numbers in relation to balance.



~~~
Could go quite a bit more in depth but those are my quick knee jerk takes. The last one gets me thinking about the sc2 marine and the ways they could have gone about balancing it. Ignoring things like game speed/dps&ttk(time to kill), how do you approach the fact that there exists a point in which the unit alone cannot be contested without some form of area of effect? Is it good design? Functional? Fun? Frustrating? So many issues without a clear objective response or solution.
How would you go about addressing or rationalizing this point?

Something I suggested in the original beta was to just simply increase the size of the unit. This increases the surface area which buffs and nerfs the unit. It decereases the DPS of the ball due to a reduced number of units that can attack at once, but provides a survivability buff against all aoe, since less units will be able to be hit by an attack or spell. Simultaneously there is more area to be attacked so melee and other single target units at least would be able to trade somewhat. I put it in the feedback survey as well as the forums. The amount of praise and support the idea had combined with no negativity made it hard to believe that it was simply never seen or at least commented on.

Stormgate fortunately doesn't have anything like this that stands out other than infest creeping, which I'm sure will get addressed either by making them duration based vs creeps or making it so most don't spawn them on death.



Overall I don't think the game is deserving of a lot of the excessive flack it seems to be getting, but it's definitely not worth some of the blind support and faith that some are giving it. Somewhere in between.

Hopefully April gives us a better picture.

*****
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16859 Posts
March 16 2024 13:15 GMT
#2
On March 16 2024 18:55 Agh wrote:
Overall I don't think the game is deserving of a lot of the excessive flack it seems to be getting, but it's definitely not worth some of the blind support and faith that some are giving it. Somewhere in between.

Frost Giant self proclaimed "The Future of RTS" as the tag line for Stormgate lead to high expectations. The developers position themselves as "your friend". Western Studios do the "we are your friend" schtick a lot. A few gullble people seem to think these employees of a corporation who repeat talking points into a camera are "their friend". Those people shower them with appreciation when things are good and crush them when things go bad.

I am positive that at 50+ years old and decades of industry experience world wide Tim Morten knew these things were possible. He did the whole "we are your friend" routine with C&C2 at Victory Games 10 years ago. He knows whats up. He is not some innocent victim. It is very likely he got a massive payday when the $25 million showed up from Kakao Games.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Antithesis
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1213 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-16 20:27:01
March 16 2024 19:53 GMT
#3
Yeah, from what I've seen these initial reactions seem reasonable. However, the bottom line of the game being very middling in its current state is a disastrous verdict if we keep in mind this:

On March 16 2024 22:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2024 18:55 Agh wrote:
Overall I don't think the game is deserving of a lot of the excessive flack it seems to be getting, but it's definitely not worth some of the blind support and faith that some are giving it. Somewhere in between.

Frost Giant self proclaimed "The Future of RTS" as the tag line for Stormgate lead to high expectations.

Frost Giant still literally present this slogan on the very front page of the game: "THE FUTURE OF RTS IS COMING IN 2024".

I have suspected it from the beginning but it seems that Frost Giant have set themselves up for failure. So far what we have seen of StormGate is a fair but humble and almost totally derivative mixture of W3 and SC2 with lackluster graphics. Nothing about it is particularly innovative or next-generation. Which, in and of itself, is perfectly fine but Frost Giant have promised far more than that.
Mutation complete.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25894 Posts
March 18 2024 11:39 GMT
#4
Pretty darn reasonable blog!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1002 Posts
March 20 2024 10:10 GMT
#5
On March 17 2024 04:53 Antithesis wrote:
Yeah, from what I've seen these initial reactions seem reasonable. However, the bottom line of the game being very middling in its current state is a disastrous verdict if we keep in mind this:

Show nested quote +
On March 16 2024 22:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On March 16 2024 18:55 Agh wrote:
Overall I don't think the game is deserving of a lot of the excessive flack it seems to be getting, but it's definitely not worth some of the blind support and faith that some are giving it. Somewhere in between.

Frost Giant self proclaimed "The Future of RTS" as the tag line for Stormgate lead to high expectations.

Frost Giant still literally present this slogan on the very front page of the game: "THE FUTURE OF RTS IS COMING IN 2024".

I have suspected it from the beginning but it seems that Frost Giant have set themselves up for failure. So far what we have seen of StormGate is a fair but humble and almost totally derivative mixture of W3 and SC2 with lackluster graphics. Nothing about it is particularly innovative or next-generation. Which, in and of itself, is perfectly fine but Frost Giant have promised far more than that.


I don't think there is any shot the game comes out this year, and if it does it will be a big mistake.

I think what they've shown so far is good, but still definitely needs a tremendous amount of work. If the next update doesn't go very deep into addressing QoL and hotkey improvements I'll be extremely put off.

It's fine to take ideas directly from other games, for example things like AoE2's Ctrl+Hotkey building selection should be thrown in, because why not? Then again something like this would be a non issue if they improved their already existing global production feature making it so it showed you how many given structures you had and a visible production queue for each.

Refinement for their "automatic control groups" via customization options and toggles or.... perhaps even allowing players to create their own custom code and logic and share/import it.
For example:
Control Group 1 will add unit B to it until Control Group 3 contains N of unit B or C.
Ignoring X Control Groups when using the All Army hotkey. (general option that I think this game and SC2 should implement)




I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20318 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-27 22:29:43
March 27 2024 22:03 GMT
#6
If the next update doesn't go very deep into addressing QoL and hotkey improvements I'll be extremely put off.


+

In the second beta test phase (Feb-March) which had no NDA, there were a range of problems with the basic user interface which made any kind of playtesting very difficult. Stuff that had nothing to do with the gameplay itself, but just the ability to use normal input devices to talk to the game engine as expected.

The most prominent example of that is drag scrolling. It had a sensitivity which was 5x lower than what i would consider usable, the sensitivity was not configurable, the "invert drag scroll" option flipped itself on and off by itself every 10 minutes and the sensitivity was inversely proportional to framerate - for example when you had a framerate drop due to a fight happening, your sensitivity would often increase inconsistently by 2-8x.

IMO It should be a priority for all RTS games to sort out the basic camera controls (among a few other things) before beginning playtesting in earnest; it's the bottom layer of the pyramid that you're building the game on.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
LiuLi Cup #46 - Day 2
CranKy Ducklings224
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft157
Nathanias 111
SpeCial 108
CosmosSc2 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 660
Soulkey 200
NaDa 42
Dota 2
monkeys_forever390
PGG 113
League of Legends
ScreaM840
Cuddl3bear3
Counter-Strike
fl0m1234
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox413
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor158
Other Games
summit1g9577
shahzam705
C9.Mang0288
Maynarde165
Skadoodle155
Trikslyr61
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick777
Counter-Strike
PGL353
Other Games
BasetradeTV44
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 67
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki26
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5211
Other Games
• imaqtpie1502
• Scarra1096
• Shiphtur211
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
10h 9m
Wardi Open
13h 39m
PiGosaur Monday
23h 9m
Replay Cast
1d 9h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 22h
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Online Event
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.