EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 4
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. Exactly. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 Morfildur wrote: There is a new variation that seems to be extremely strong. The classical 1/1/1 is unrelated to that. The 1/1/1 all-in includes sending SCVs, banshees and possibly a raven, so it is a lot different to the marine/tank/medivac of the older 1/1/1. plus alot has changed since then. (primarily the warpgate research timings) | ||
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MiningSchuhu
Germany53 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. You wont hold any good 1-1-1 with a 2 gate robo opening, not so safe as it seems | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:04 WarrickHunt wrote: Hi, welcome to our world, sincerely zerg Welcome to Starcraft 2. | ||
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ObliviousNA
United States535 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? The difference is that the terran could get superior tech (medivacs) and gain an advantage just by SURVIVING the 1base v 1base situation. In this case, terran already HAS the superior tech. There is no advantage to just 'surviving', no situation where 1base v 1base will favor the protoss. Yet. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:11 Huntz wrote: I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE? It is, and that's exactly why Tyler was plain wrong. I root for the guy when he plays, but watching him put himself behind every game by playing overly safe is discouraging as a fan | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
How about you propose a build that allows Protoss to be able to scout and expand quickly against this build as well as being safe to other builds? IF such a build actually existed then I'm sure EVERY single Protoss would be doing it | ||
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CP-Jun
Australia278 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. I will be suggesting GomTV to have an Artosis on Star2 Ready Action Program. Korean SC2 caster who claimed that 1/1/1 is dependable against Protoss with the exact build that Artosis claimed got BEATEN 5 times in a row by ST_SuperStar (also known as Random King) | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:22 MiningSchuhu wrote: You wont hold any good 1-1-1 with a 2 gate robo opening, not so safe as it seems The scouting allows you to determine which variation of 1-1-1. It still is hard to hold, but not impossible by any means. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote: This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout. Allin is possibly too strong in general. -- In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so. I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. Against cloaked banshees and tanks ? | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
Did you even read the write-up? It clearly explained why an early expansion is required. They do that not to be greedy but because an early expansion is the optimal counter. 1-base vs 1-base, considering that Terran can just float their command center to expand, Protoss will lose. , | ||
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allan871
China21 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:04 tree.hugger wrote: Thanks for this. I'd like to highlight what I view as the most important part of this post, which is the relationship of protoss scouting to time. Of course, if the protoss knows 100% that the terran will 1/1/1, then they will nexus first and tech, before adding mass gateways. However, the time at which the 1/1/1 differentiates from other terran builds is much later than the time at which the probe is driven from the base by marines, and is well before observers or hallucination would spot it. That makes it extremely difficult for protoss to react perfectly to 1/1/1 at that specific timing, despite what their pre-game suspicions might be. This is a different critique than the common zerg complaint, which is that zerg has few scouting options. Instead, protoss has many scouting options, but because the 1/1/1 materializes in the part of the game where no race has acceptable scouting options, and because it is so powerful in an extremely specific way, it is simply impossible for protoss to react perfectly to a 1/1/1 without taking an insane risk. 1/1/1's thrive on small maps where playing nexus first could be insanity; if the terran is not going 1/1/1, then a common marauder/marine poke will put the protoss almost game-endingly behind. In the case of zerg, a zerg playing "safe" might lose to some all-ins but delay others, and might fall behind to some economic play, but may come back and win in other matches. For protoss against the 1/1/1, it's basically a scenario of "counter perfectly, or stand absolutely no chance". The fact is that no vZ strategy comes close to this description. It's also crucial to mention that even if anticipated and prepared for, a 1/1/1 is almost impossible to stop anyway. If executed at the level achieved by mid-range professional Korean terrans, than there is simply no recourse. Even with a perfect counter in theory, protoss still relies on terran to make a mistake in attacking. This is at the heart of the 1/1/1 problem. This statement is also shared by a lot of Chinese Protoss pro-gamers as they realize that getting an early expansion seems to be the only viable way to stop this kind of aggression unless you are going to do an 1-base voidray all-in. But here comes another problem if the Protoss is going to expand blindly - they will be rushed by 1-base Terran deadly before they can even scout that. Lack the ability to scout in the early-mid game transition is one of the major problem the Protoss players have now. Those Chinese pro-gamers also talked about the late game imbalance in PvT but since it is kinda an off-topic thing so I am gonna skip that. (It's majorly focused on Ghost vs Templar). | ||
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The Iron Duke
United Kingdom41 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Wait what? The op just said that amongst the Pro players, they all agree that an early expand is the ONLY way of defeating the 1/1/1. If you open up 1 base, you are gonna get rolled by the 1/1/1 even if you scout it. Of course op may be wrong, but for the sake of argument, lets assume he is right. What does a 2 gate robo achieve now? It basically allows you to see that he is going 1/1/1 and that you are going to lose the game because your nexus is too late. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? 4gate was NEVER hard to hold except possibly in PvP if you scouted it coming. This build if the terran tells you it's coming before the game starts, and you don't nexus first, it's 50/50 at best whether you can hold it. Add in the fact that 1/1/1 can hold every currently discovered allin by protoss. EVERY SINGLE ALLIN. I'll let that sink in for a moment while you continue to cry about 4gate, which can be stopped with SCV's, marines, and a bunker easily. | ||
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Shinobi1982
1605 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:08 Lordwar wrote: No, terran mines with 24 worker as much minerals and gas as protoss. Mule ? | ||
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MiningSchuhu
Germany53 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:23 Razuik wrote: The scouting allows you to determine which variation of 1-1-1. It still is hard to hold, but not impossible by any means. Problem is that you dont have enough units if you're gonna stay on 1 base, so you need to expand. An expand that late wont pay off early enough to give you the economy -> the units to kill the force of the terran | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:22 Jayrod wrote: It is, and that's exactly why Tyler was plain wrong. I root for the guy when he plays, but watching him put himself behind every game by playing overly safe is discouraging as a fan 1-gate robo and 1-gate star allows you to get information on whether or not to add gates (for defense of the 1-1-1) or expand. It's a great cross-roads kinda build. | ||
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