EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 3
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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DEF.Sins
Ireland22 Posts
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:12 RoieTRS wrote: Admittedly I'd say zerg is the strongest race now. You could say that, although I would prefer to think that off the back off months of being the underdogs in every matchup, Zerg players are simply the most resilient. | ||
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Mungosh
365 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:12 DooMDash wrote: I think the counter to 1-1-1 is time. How many games have your Protoss players played against bio builds? How long did it take people to kind of quiet down about Marauders realizing they weren't the end all most imba unit in the world? Look at the drop in Terran win % when archons got changed. I think Terrans have been great at adapting to every patch change or meta game change, and this 1-1-1 stuff just came out and people seem so unwilling to continue trying for more than a month. It has been out since beta though. People still haven't found a solution. | ||
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Caloooomi
Scotland188 Posts
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Lordwar
Finland243 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:14 Mungosh wrote: It has been out since beta though. People still haven't found a solution. Why it is just now being complained about? | ||
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coupons
United States23 Posts
We've experienced the 1-1-1 since the beginning of Beta and when HuskyStarcraft coined it the "Destiny Cloud Fist" build, and a good majority of people still call it by that name, giving us a look into how long the 1-1-1 build has been around on the NA servers. Given how long it's been exposed, it's easy for us to say "Oh, 1-1-1 isn't OP, you can easily stop it with X or Y", but only because we've been so exposed to it and have practiced against it so many times. The reverse is true for, say the Blue Flame Hellion -> Mech build that many Terrans are falling in love with. Hellions have been around since Beta, but in NA, they weren't used that frequently against Zerg. If you take into consideration how recent it's been since BF Hellions have become commonplace units, it's understandable to see that many Zerg players in NA are having difficulty dealing with a very Mech heavy play, not because it's overpowered, but because we're learning how to fight against it. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:12 Lordwar wrote: Why all this fuzz about this build now? this build has been around like forever? Something to do with 4 gate being nerfed, voidrays unable to go super saiyan with 40 dps made 1 1 1 a good build to go almost all the time. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
or you should think before posting?! its obvious that its only a difference in minerals... actually there was a time earlier in sc2 were terrans played 1/1/1 right? what happened at that time to the build and why did it take a few months until it returned? | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think this is the case because of how complex and flexible the 1/1/1 is as an all-in. In a relatively short period of time, terran can get a very wide variety of units, while protoss' options are much more limited. If protoss gets robo tech, then they cannot get charge/blink. If they get stargate tech, they can't get mass gateways, ect. ect. But the terran composition is so flexible and requires such specific responses. (i.e. possible observers for banshees, sentries for FF and PDD defense, stalkers for banshees, immortals for tanks, zealots for soaking up damage, ect. ect.)Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think the best protoss response is what MC showed in the first game of the IEM finals against PuMa. He sacked his first expo to buy time to defend. However, against PuMa's second push, he was too hasty. Having chosen charge tech, he needed to wait for it to finish, even if he had to sack his expo again. That is acceptable to him because he is way ahead on probes. I'm also not convinced that charge was a good response, I assume he intended his zealots to bring friendly fire on the marines, but that doesn't seem to address the marine ball particularly well. Colossi or perhaps more gateways, immortals, and a forge for +1 armor might've been more effective. | ||
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Whiplash
United States2928 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:11 Huntz wrote: I'm probably wrong and hesitant to post this but wouldn't a 1 gate star or 1 gate robo be pretty weak to a standard 2 rax FE? It wouldn't place you in a good position, and they have the potential to break you by simply having too many units. They could prob cancel your nexus 99% of the time too. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. Tyler, The issue is that 1-1-1 is so flexible. The terran player can get cloak, or not. Get a raven, or not. Go heavy s-tanks or heavy banshees. I am no pro player, but I don't know how you get enough information to counter whatever mix of units your opponent has decides to get. This build seems to be designed to deny scouting. I have never held this push off against people of my skill level who didn't totally mess up. I would love to know how to respond, because I've been banging head against this wall for a while now. | ||
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CP-Jun
Australia278 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote: This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout. Allin is possibly too strong in general. -- In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so. I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. The problem with 1/1/1 is that Terran does not sacrifice a future output of units. Opportunity cost of doing an all-in is future unit outputs. Looking at 4 gate, you can't get that early 6 stalkers + 1 zealot if they all die - you can never reach that output level in a given time. Terrans have a constant output throughout the game when they do 1/1/1. That is the big problem. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:12 Lordwar wrote: Why all this fuzz about this build now? this build has been around like forever? There is a new variation that seems to be extremely strong. The classical 1/1/1 is unrelated to that. The 1/1/1 all-in includes sending SCVs, banshees and possibly a raven, so it is a lot different to the marine/tank/medivac of the older 1/1/1. | ||
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samd
United States77 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
The build is not even refined yet, and Terran is still winning. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:02 Numy wrote: This concept of a "counter that doesn't require you to outplay the other guy" is rather silly. What's so silly about it? If I tell a Terran I'm going to 4gate him, and he makes 3 bunkers on top of his ramp, then I'm way behind, and 100% dead if I try to force it. If a Terran wants to 2 rax marine/scv all-in you, and you make 3 spines and some lings, you will either crush his attack or end up way ahead without having to do much else. Do you really think a particular all-in build essentially requiring the defending player to be way better in order to hold is a good thing? | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote: This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout. Allin is possibly too strong in general. -- In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so. I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. With like 4gate, 6gate, or dts builds... scouted or not, people know how to beat it and know the timings for it. With this build, even if you know it is coming, it is difficult to counter or beat it. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
I think the counter to 1-1-1 is time. How many games have your Protoss players played against bio builds? How long did it take people to kind of quiet down about Marauders realizing they weren't the end all most imba unit in the world? Look at the drop in Terran win % when archons got changed. I think Terrans have been great at adapting to every patch change or meta game change, and this 1-1-1 stuff just came out and people seem so unwilling to continue trying for more than a month. Well I think part of that is just Terran is more versatile in terms of openings, tech, and composition. And the build isn't astoundingly new, its been around for a while and similar builds have been around since beta. I mean just look at 4 gate and PvP. 4 gate had been around FOREVER, and suddenly it just popped up and literally destroyed every other build. I dont see why this couldn't be the same thing. I agree you shouldn't have the mindset of "Oh, that's strong, nerf it," but you also shouldn't have the mindset of "There's a solution, keep looking," because sometimes there isn't. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. If Blizzard chooses to nerf the 1-1-1 allins, they are truly balancing with the metagame. Balancing with the metagame is the completely WRONG way to balance the game. | ||
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