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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Either way, something has to happen.
But it does look very bleak when someone as good as IMMVP even recognizes this build is too strong
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On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell.
The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told.
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what happened to hallucination? was it removed in a balance patch?
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im not going to act like i know everything about the 111 build but mana doesnt seem to ever lose PVT when it gets to the late game. and its not like he econ cheeses either. he gets all inned a lot and defends it.
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On August 22 2011 06:36 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +That's actually wrong. Thorzain lost to Genius in the GSTL.
I know you'll probably back up and say you meant the GSL and not the GSTL but I see no reason for making that distinction. GSTL or no, if your response to 100% (or 90%) winrate is "That's not true, this 1 guy beat it" and not "lol troll QQer gfto" I think we have a problem.
Lol. I'm not defending the whole of the terran race. I don't even use this build. I just hate when people make stupid exaggerated arguments like "NOBODY HAS EVER BEATEN THIS BUILD... EVER"
LOL what if we did have a problem???
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On August 22 2011 06:22 MiningSchuhu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote:On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. You wont hold any good 1-1-1 with a 2 gate robo opening, not so safe as it seems
This. While i think Tyler's post for general Protoss play is correct, at least at the moment it dosen't apply to 1-1-1. Nexus first and 1gate expand are two of the "better" builds against 1-1-1. 1Gate Robo can get u the information, but expanding tht late is not an option at all against the 1-1-1. So u are forced to go for a one base Colossi all-in which is okay against it. But 1base Colossus vs 1-1-1 every game would not be enjoyable or beneficial to the game.
It says something when SangHo goes Nexus first against Terran every game, just hoping Terran gets a blind gas and can't go for a 4rax marine scv all-in. Atm, Nexus first is one of the only "safe" builds against the 1-1-1, and it obviously has other glaring weaknesses.
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The problem with this is, that its incredibly hard to acknowledge this push is actually coming.
Protosses for now, should just passively go every game against terran with one gate robo and make immortals and zealots and stalkers just the right amount you need to deal with banshees. There is no other way.
You dont need faster expansion against 1-1-1, i dont even understand how some of you guys even got that idea.
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On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told.
Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
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On August 22 2011 06:40 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:36 Huntz wrote:That's actually wrong. Thorzain lost to Genius in the GSTL.
I know you'll probably back up and say you meant the GSL and not the GSTL but I see no reason for making that distinction. GSTL or no, if your response to 100% (or 90%) winrate is "That's not true, this 1 guy beat it" and not "lol troll QQer gfto" I think we have a problem. Lol. I'm not defending the whole of the terran race. I don't even use this build. I just hate when people make stupid exaggerated arguments like "NOBODY HAS EVER BEATEN THIS BUILD... EVER" LOL what if we did have a problem???
No offense dude, but did you watch the game? Thorzain didn't even siege his tanks and got caught, if all Terrans did this build without siege mode then I think Protoss wouldn't be complaining
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And how is hallucination useful? I'm pretty sure 1 gate robo FE would get obs as fast or non significantly slower. the problem is more you can't stop it when you scout it. but yes scouting it is a problem too
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On August 22 2011 06:40 Sprouter wrote:
what happened to hallucination? was it removed in a balance patch?
You have to get warp gate first. By the time the hallucination is done and in the terran base, you need to have already committed to a defense against the 1-1-1.
Basically Hallucination is worthless against 1-1-1.
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On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ?
I can't believe Blizzard hasn't modified the bunker even once and now no single Zerg ever loses to a bunker rush. Zergs lose 0% of the time now, you can't even find a game in gsl recently where a Zerg loses because of a 2 rax, especially with the really good Zergs like Losira.
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Yea, the point Gisado is making isn't based off of random facts. The same goes for IMMVP.
The fact of the matter is, these 'other' builds that players have DEFINITELY tried against the 1/1/1 all-in simply can't hold it. 2gate Robo gets completely pooped on by shee/tank/marine/raven, 2 gate star can hold if the Terran seriously messes up, other than that you are dead.
The main unit mix I have seen hold this pressure is zealot/sentry/phoenix, but it immediately dies to the next wave.
Super fast 1base collosus builds can hold this, sorta, but again, you are fighting a baaaaad engagement. Banshees and a Raven can really own up on a collosus based army. And then the marines that are left clean up. Especially since you can't get Collosus range in time to hold this and have a big enough army.
To those saying, "deal with it protoss", we would if 4gate didn't get nerfed, but it did, so now its your turn.
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On August 22 2011 06:34 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:31 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On August 22 2011 06:24 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote:
This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Allin is possibly too strong in general.
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In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so.
I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. Against cloaked banshees and tanks ? Do you even play Protoss? You NEED a robotics to scout - that is P's only form of scouting apart from probes. Without confirming its a 1-1-1 you're just playing a guessing game which could potentially put you far behind. And btw most good 1-1-1's as far as I know should come a while before you can finish charge, unless you get it super fast which means you would probably lose anyway due to lack of units. Forge as well? Can't get grades in time and cannons won't do crap Really?? What about hallucination? Or a timing attack? Or just using the tells? (Marine count in particular)
What about cloak banshees? Timing attacks against an all in won't work. Marine count sure but you're still gambling as you're not scouting 100% (cloak/raven ect).
Plus I'm very doubtful you can break the siege line without immortals.
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This thread would benefit a lot from replays. We have several smart players disagreeing about whether certain builds can hold 1/1/1 or not. I'm prone to trust Tyler's assessment until I see some reps or vods of 1 gate robo and 1 gate stargate against 1/1/1.
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I have a question. Liquid'Tyler has stated his belief that the economic advantage of fast expanding is not incredibly necessary, and others have followed this statement up by basically saying the 111 is just Terran responding to Protoss FE metagame, and that maybe Protoss shouldn't FE.
Well. How does fast expanding hurt your chances of holding off a 111? It seems completely irrelevant to me to blame it on a Protoss FE. The 111 hits AFTER, long after, the FE has already kicked in and payed for itself. It seems like the FE can ONLY help. I don't understand what possible benefit you could reap by not FEing.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:40 Warrice wrote:
im not going to act like i know everything about the 111 build but mana doesnt seem to ever lose PVT when it gets to the late game. and its not like he econ cheeses either. he gets all inned a lot and defends it.
then he should go to GSL and do fine then :/
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On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
Did you miss out on beta?
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On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:39 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote:On August 22 2011 06:28 Medrea wrote:
Koreans and Korean pro's are also complaining of this, even the terrans, and I mean more than just IMMVP though I will differ to him for example. He even has a nickname for NOT 1-1-1 ing all of his protoss opponents.
Come on. When your terran buddy has 400 APM you can have infinite APM and you won't stop it. If a well executed 1-1-1 was stoppable we would be seeing it happen way more than we are. If top level Korean protosses haven't figured it out after playing 12 hours a day then what happens?
Even if there was a protoss build that stops 1-1-1, the mere THREAT of the 1-1-1 boxes you into a very very small corridor. And it just so happens that corridor is vulnerable to OTHER terran one base all-ins? That is a bit silly.
Im gonna stick with Korean pro-level opinion on this one. They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. The build has been owning MC and for a while now with no answers emerging. Time has told. Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
MC lost to Thorzain doing this build at MLG twice (the only games Thorzain won), and lost to Bomber in GSL group stages last GSL (the Nestea unbeaten run one).
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On August 22 2011 06:33 MeanMike wrote:
100% win rate in gsl
im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous
Watching GSL August and GSTL I've seen a few 1/1/1 builds defeated by Protoss in the past couple of weeks. Once the Protoss' worked out what was happening, they delayed the Terran advance with clever force fields and feints, to buy time to get enough units out before the push hit. MC even held off a 1/1/1 by Puma this morning, but lost his lead through incorrect decisions.
Also, to a couple of posts saying "Protoss can't beat a 1/1/1 unless they outplay their opponent"; does anyone deserve a win if they can't outplay their opponent?
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EPT
