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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:33 MeanMike wrote: 100% win rate in gsl im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous That's actually wrong. Thorzain lost to Genius in the GSTL. I know you'll probably back up and say you meant the GSL and not the GSTL but I see no reason for making that distinction. | ||
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RusHXceL
United States1004 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:33 Fission wrote: I have many replays of defending 3gate sg against masters and gm level players. It's a fairly easy build to scout. Well I delayed my 2nd gas a little or until scvs gets killed. No 1 has yet to beat my build 3 gate+sg :D | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:33 illsick wrote: well, I think this topic is about the 1-1-1 build. Marauders are usually not in that mix; that build consists of tanks, banshees, raven and marines mostly. So you probably played against a different build? 1-1-1 is not a thin build, it can stand being tweaked around for meta gaming, thus marauders to fake the NOT 1-1-1. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
I am hit by 111 fairly often on ladder, sometimes I hold, other times I dont. I do similar things every game. Vs a hellion/marine/banshee/raven 111 I held with immortal/stalker with some sentires and pulling probes. Next game, Thor banshee marine raven 111, super 1 sided. I think what makes it worse is that, with good use of raven terran can deny the quick observer and really leave protoss in a guessing game. One option I've been experimenting with is fast storm. This has almost worked a few times, but it really depends on how well terran executes the push. 15nexus could be viable, but since 1/1/1 involves pumping a ton of marines, if he scouts this nexus, what is really stopping terran from grabbing 3-5 scvs and rallying marine/bunker to your nexus while he 1/1/1's you. Even if you hold, 1) you will surely take losses 2) your tech is delayed from 15nexus. I think maybe protoss can figure out some strange way to punish the build, maybe zealot pressure of some sort. Or perhaps cannon contain to delay terran /cheese him out. But honestly I dont think it would work, I've seen one version of 1/1/1 where a siege tank pops before my first (chrono'd ) stalker gets to his ramp, making no pressure possible. I don't think it's "super op" as I have held it before, but as said by many, I think I only held because T screwed up, not because I did something good. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? Because if you know 4-gate is coming, it is easy to hold on 1 base and be safe and be ahead. 111 seems to require fast expo to defeat reasonably, but that fast expo dies to faster allins that are basically unscoutable by protoss. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:34 TERRANLOL wrote: That's actually wrong. Thorzain lost to Genius in the GSTL. I know you'll probably back up and say you meant the GSL and not the GSTL but I see no reason for making that distinction. We are not talking about retarded 1-1-1's where terran forgot siege mode or didnt siege his tanks or didnt fire them or anything like that. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: While I agree with your sentiments about FE builds, 1gate phoenix isn't safe. It was hugely popular on SEA for a while thanks to Nirvana and all the Terrans worked out that you can hit a timing off of a standard 2rax build which P can't hold. Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
That's actually wrong. Thorzain lost to Genius in the GSTL. I know you'll probably back up and say you meant the GSL and not the GSTL but I see no reason for making that distinction. GSTL or no, if your response to 100% (or 90%) winrate is "That's not true, this 1 guy beat it" and not "lol troll QQer gfto" I think we have a problem. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:34 Medrea wrote: That was with stim iirc. And thats why they nerfed stim. 2 rax is still strong, and it can kill your anti 1-1-1. That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. | ||
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CP-Jun
Australia278 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:31 TERRANLOL wrote: I do believe the terran still has an advantage, however, I do believe in getting everything right conceptually in order to make a argument. 1. Terran is using SCVs to make buildings. Subtract those from the count. It's one at a time for supply depots. One or two more for the other buildings. 2. Protoss can chronoboost out workers. I'm assuming they will have, until they suspect this build is coming. I'd give protoss another 1-2 workers on terran. 3. In order to build the orbital and have those mules, the terran has to sacrifice some of his SCV production. It takes 2 SCV build times to build an orbital command, but it also costs 150 minerals. So I'd say the Protoss is roughly 5-7 probes ahead in terms of mining rate BEFORE mules. Nope- the production of marine can commence even sacrificing your SCVs time and Banshee and tanks productions start when tech labs are made which then SCVs are already all made. The sacrifice that SCVs building time diminishes as the production begins once the facilities are made. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
It is much easier for Terran to crack a Protoss expansion early than a Zerg as Protoss have no early AOE option | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers. Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). Yeah pretty much, 1-1-1 is safe vs 4 gate, so naturally it survives 3 gate too. That's not to say the terran might play greedy and skip a bunker. Also if you do so many warps before you put your nexus down, you might want to consider dropping a robo before that expo, or cloak banshee would insta-gg you. Also make sure your 3 gate push is early enough to force him into defending | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:28 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I hit this all the time on China and I do a 3 gate pressure into expo and it rolls it a lot. I don't drop the nexus until after 2-3 full waves of warp ins. I tend to find that the Terran lack the proper marine/maruader count to deal with that many zealots/stalkers. Am I just playing bad players?` (Legit asking here, pretty curious of the answer). Do they have a Depot+Bunker wall at the top of their ramp, and do they pull SCVs to repair it? Do they mass-repair their first Tank? I sometimes 4gate when I suspect a tech opening from Terran, and it almost always comes down to them pulling enough scvs to repair in time. If they let me break their wall and snipe their first Tank, I win. However, if they pull enough scvs immediately, I can't break it. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:36 DooMDash wrote: That is not why they nerfed stim. They nerfed stim for TvP ramp run ups. And all those Z's having problems were dead before stim, most of the time the Terrans never even got gas. It happened for easily a month. Just saying this is not much different. Time will tell. Then it was steppes of war nonsense and all that. And what does it matter what stim is used for? 2 rax with way earlier stim timing was OP so they nerfed it. | ||
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Choboo
Sweden2088 Posts
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:30 DooMDash wrote: They also lost to 2 rax all ins like every game for 1 month straight, with nothing changed its no longer a problem. Crazy I know right ? Right that's why in that period Nestea won the GSL right? And there was no nerf to having to build a supply depot before barracks right? And no tweaks to bunker build times? And supply depots preventing ramps from being blocked. Try 2-raxing on close position 1st-gen Metapolis and see how well a Zerg has solved it. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:18 Razuik wrote: I completely agree with this. There is no need to take such a huge economic risk as protoss. Artosis constantly explains how great safe builds like 2gate-robo are. I have not seen a 2gate-robo in GSL for a very long time. The metagame in TvP is FE protoss atm.. Terran is simply abusing that fact. In my opinion, Protoss players just need to develop more safe builds in the matchup. If Blizzard chooses to nerf the 1-1-1 allins, they are truly balancing with the metagame. Balancing with the metagame is the completely WRONG way to balance the game. Did you read the OP. It explains that playing "safe" means you will lose to 111. That only risky FE is able to reasonably defeat it. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
I think the general confusion in trying to hold this build is that people think they have to expand before a certain gateway count. If you scout a 1-1-1 allin when you're going 1-gate robo, I'm quite certain you can just add 2 more gates and delay your expansion for a while. At least in my experience, 3-gate robo can destroy this allin. Try reading next time. EDIT: Ok that's harsh, but the whole 1-basing vs. 1-1-1 is clearly explain in the OP as losing. Like, 80% of the OP is about that. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:37 Medrea wrote: Then it was steppes of war nonsense and all that. And what does it matter what stim is used for? 2 rax with way earlier stim timing was OP so they nerfed it. Again that's not why stim was nerfed. Zergs weren't even complaining about it at that point because they actually were fine against 2 rax. I remember this period very well, the stim nerf came much later. Most builds need time. You can see plenty of builds that took months and months of practice to beat and change the meta game against in BW. People have been doing marine tank viking~ builds for a year before they realized mech is probably better. In 3 months mech could be out dated by sky terran. | ||
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