im a 1.5k diamond Terran and it doesnt take a pro skilled player to see the flaws in SC2 terran although i do admit, sometimes early game terran can be quite strong, but once late game, its all the way downhill for us, it doesnt cost much to play safer early game for protoss or zerg, a couple of well placed spines completely shuts down helion harass, couple of sentrys on ramp delays MM push till your immortal/collusus gets out
protoss late game multiple collusus, high templar storm, obliterates MMM, while chargelots/immortals easily breaks siege tanks, so it is impossible to play without MMM, warpgate ability to instantly teleport x units
zerg late game macro, is just too strong at the moment, its hard for a terran to push out, because once he does, he is fully committed, and if terran loses a battle, terran will be hugely down on supply, while zerg can instantly 200/200
On October 30 2010 18:53 Kyuki wrote: Tester says Terran is OP (when Toss had sick badass VRs) due to their versitality and how they could stop pretty much anything so easily - people jumped the wagon. BoxeR think terran is weak - everyone jumps the wagon. Fruiddealer/IdrA says Zerg is weak - everyone screams and agrees!
There is a difference between Boxer, Tester, Fruitdealer, and Idra. One of them was one of the greatest BW players ever, and the others were mere footnotes in BW.
The other 2 were footnotes, idra wasn't even known as being a top level player.
He loses everytime against koreans and is hated by koreans because of his bad manners, as we can see with the Zenio bitchslapping idra from his booth.
whats better than the op tho is how so many zergs come to this thread saying that hes wrong and that the match is balanced. this is the equivalent of someone in middle school who took an econ class telling ben bernanke that hes wrong. the facts are that top level terrans and pros are realizing that t is under powered and switching. just look at tlo and now boxer. not much more to say on the matter. kind of funny how we don't see top level players switching TO terran.
On October 30 2010 11:07 EleanorRIgby wrote: wow so much top terrans have switched or are thinking of switching
make hunter seeker missile not totally useless plz
Why do people keep talking about this. David Kim addressed it in a blizzcon q & a and it makes sense. They don't want to buff seeker missile. It doesn't need a buff, it shouldn't get a buff, the game would be worse with it buffed.
A lot fewer zergs switched when they were getting pounded in the ass in phase two and the first three months of release. Now, a week into the patch, Terrans feel like the game is unwinnable versus zerg. Everyone gets the short end of the stick at some point; ergo the ebs and flows of a good RTS. (Just to think, now, how many Terrans said to zergs "well (*fart*) use drops or something, gee i dno stop complaining" fart fart).
See how it feels for a little bit. It might inspire creative play; new builds, an alternate way of dealing with the problem. Anything can happen. The future is yours. Run, Forrest, run.
i hope you are actually kidding, zerg was never UP, it just took some early game micro and roach play to shut down harass
Terran is hard? Wait... it's not like marines went 2 supply. + Show Spoiler +
Trolling... yes I know TvP is problematic at the moment... I'm random so I feel it too. But, really... the way Terran works I'm pretty sure terran will never be "the UP race"
Going random is always interesting, but I have a feeling Terran won't be nerfed again unless it's inadvertently with Heart of the Swarm. Boxer is such a powerful voice I think him threatening to go random will register with Blizzard, even if it's just one facet of their considerations. What else can you say?
On October 30 2010 14:41 Insanious wrote: I think that the big problem was that Zerg was UP compared to the other races.
This meant that the Z players had to play harder in order to compete vs T and P. So, they explored more parts of their races, and Z learned to deflect early harass with relative success.
Then came the latest patch. What happens? Now Z who has been working so hard to learn to survive vs early game anything has a little less to worry about. They have to cover less based, but their "defend with as little resource loss" skills have carried over. Now Z has learned the best ways to defend vs early game pressure but now with slower early game pressure (zealot time nerf, supply before rax, etc...) Z can now has a more consistent macro + defense pattern than before (where they had to worry about stupidly fast 2 gates and reaper rushes).
Now T and P have to adapt to not being able to bust in so early. Z changed their tactics very little... went from prepare for cheese -> scouted no cheese plays. T and P have to change the way they play all together as parts of their games were removed.
Z has been practicing this style of play since the game came out... T and P are just evolving. Now that Z, T, and P are relatively equal (T needs a small late game buff) Z has their strat ironed out and T and P are still trying to figure stuff out.
In time, T and P will learn a more optimal way of play, just currently we haven't seen is as there's been too little time.
I think Z is just a little more refined and evolved play as Z had to play that way due to being UP, T and P are catching up but really wont take long for them to figure out the new way to play, the new timings, and everything will be A OK once again.
I'm not gonna say zerg is OP, since it's way to early imo to say these statements.
However your arguement that zerg players played more/explored more... These pros are playing like 10-16 hours a day...
Anyway the problem is, small changes effect the game so much. Zerg was never weak aslong as terran left them alone for the first minutes. They had it a lot easier late game, could tech switch like madman, had 3 gamebreaking units(blings,mutas,ultras[this one not as much since nerf/fix]), which basically work against every combo terran has(and throw in infestors and it's painful), except the raven/marine which is starting to show up now.
Now we have the early game harass totally out the window, these weaknesses are shown quite clearly, where terran is getting their asses handed to them. I personally think siege tanks going back to 50 for all would be a decent enough start(and perhaps enough), since the reason for the nerf is pretty much out the window. It's not a *big* buff in a sense(atleast not as big as it sounds), mainly just a buff to their splash, which might be enough to make mech more viable in TvZ(and added bonus TvP again).
The problem that annoys me a bit is that everyone thinks because terran are strong early game(vs toss), it's fair the other races are strong late game... It's really not, they should make all races equally strong early game and late game(while not making them all the same *cough* sd before rax).
Edit: Forgot to say, blizzard should still hold their hands for *at least* a month, pref patch the game just after xmas if nothing has changed from what we're seeing now. Rapid patching doesn't really allow for great testing being done.
On October 30 2010 14:41 Insanious wrote: I think that the big problem was that Zerg was UP compared to the other races.
This meant that the Z players had to play harder in order to compete vs T and P. So, they explored more parts of their races, and Z learned to deflect early harass with relative success.
Then came the latest patch. What happens? Now Z who has been working so hard to learn to survive vs early game anything has a little less to worry about. They have to cover less based, but their "defend with as little resource loss" skills have carried over. Now Z has learned the best ways to defend vs early game pressure but now with slower early game pressure (zealot time nerf, supply before rax, etc...) Z can now has a more consistent macro + defense pattern than before (where they had to worry about stupidly fast 2 gates and reaper rushes).
Now T and P have to adapt to not being able to bust in so early. Z changed their tactics very little... went from prepare for cheese -> scouted no cheese plays. T and P have to change the way they play all together as parts of their games were removed.
Z has been practicing this style of play since the game came out... T and P are just evolving. Now that Z, T, and P are relatively equal (T needs a small late game buff) Z has their strat ironed out and T and P are still trying to figure stuff out.
In time, T and P will learn a more optimal way of play, just currently we haven't seen is as there's been too little time.
I think Z is just a little more refined and evolved play as Z had to play that way due to being UP, T and P are catching up but really wont take long for them to figure out the new way to play, the new timings, and everything will be A OK once again.
I'm not gonna say zerg is OP, since it's way to early imo to say these statements.
However your arguement that zerg players played more/explored more... These pros are playing like 10-16 hours a day...
Anyway the problem is, small changes effect the game so much. Zerg was never weak aslong as terran left them alone for the first minutes. They had it a lot easier late game, could tech switch like madman, had 3 gamebreaking units(blings,mutas,ultras[this one not as much since nerf/fix]), which basically work against every combo terran has(and throw in infestors and it's painful), except the raven/marine which is starting to show up now.
Now we have the early game harass totally out the window, these weaknesses are shown quite clearly, where terran is getting their asses handed to them. I personally think siege tanks going back to 50 for all would be a decent enough start(and perhaps enough), since the reason for the nerf is pretty much out the window. It's not a *big* buff in a sense(atleast not as big as it sounds), mainly just a buff to their splash, which might be enough to make mech more viable in TvZ(and added bonus TvP again).
The problem that annoys me a bit is that everyone thinks because terran are strong early game(vs toss), it's fair the other races are strong late game... It's really not, they should make all races equally strong early game and late game(while not making them all the same *cough* sd before rax).
Edit: Forgot to say, blizzard should still hold their hands for *at least* a month, pref patch the game just after xmas if nothing has changed from what we're seeing now. Rapid patching doesn't really allow for great testing being done.
Interesting post, I agree terrans could use some lategame help, especially against protoss. But I don't see how this could be fixed without imbalancing terran early game again, since the way terran tech tree works they can have their lategame units in the early game and have the capability to hide whatever they are teching to.
I wouldn't say terran early game harass has gone out the window, bio is still extremely cost effective until the zerg has infestors out and banshee harass is still annoying as ever. Hellion drops and such are also still useful. Any terran that claims their early harass is "useless" is doing it wrong, or are up against superior players.
I am curious as to how blizzard will handle the terran lategame issue though.
Yes Terran vs. Protoss is almost a joke right now. Terran gets no advantage from being a little bit stronger early game since force fielding your ramp let you bypass early game. Mid and late game is hugely in Protoss favor.
Either you go MMM which auto-lose vs. Storm without perfect micro. Or you go Mech which is better vs. Storm but can’t be used on larger maps due to lack of mobility.
I am actually thinking of switching races or maybe take a break from the game until the next patch is out.
Haha I liked his last sentence. It would be cool if Boxer was passed around to the best terrans like a title. He should just go by SlayerS until he shows he's the man again.
I know this is sort of not related to the thread, but what about EMP? I can't tell you the amount of times I was in a PvT and the Terran just EMP'd my entire army and even with storm just tore through everything.
Tbh I think it's pretty standard that pro-gamers of their respective race complain about it - more interesting how many people around here "fall for it".
The more valuable input definitely comes from pro-gamers who "off-race" like fruitdealer, who, interestingly, thinks protoss needs help vs terran and not the other way round.
Also GSL 2 hasn't provided much prove towards anything, eg. in the last TvP fakeboxer rolled over sangho (just outplayed, not a prove for P being imba either).
There are also a lot of people here that arent even able to understand the full sentence: "If Terran gets weakened again I might go random"
Reading through the answers blows my mind, makes me want to go berserk. I dont intend to list all the logic-, factuality-, coherency-, and what ever more, lacking statements done here.
Some of the posts are really resonable and some defenitely bring me to the point to doubt the value of freedom of speech.
See how humble and humorous Boxer is, and dont try to make him look like some other creeps. Openly complaining is not always QQing. And the most off us are not even remotely capable of make the distinction. So show some respect to a mature and full of charakter person as BoxeR.
Dont forget, the data used are mostly pre patch 1.1.2. Also, if anyone here thinks, he has more insight than David Kim, aka "Dayvie", I would recommend a psychologist.
Good interview. Maybe it is not ok to complain about balance issues but i'd take this kind of complain (also TLO turning to Zerg) any day instead of BM shit and insults thrown left and right.
Every body will be biased towards their race but people actually think Boxer does not have enough knowledge to analyze the game? An ex BW legend will see the potential of the game and will analyze it 1000X better then any ex W3 or on the fringe BW player. Some are willing to give Check, FD, Idra, InControl etc the benefit of a doubt but not Boxer? FFS.
I'd like people to stop taking balance discussions so personal...
On October 30 2010 21:27 MockHamill wrote: Yes Terran vs. Protoss is almost a joke right now. Terran gets no advantage from being a little bit stronger early game since force fielding your ramp let you bypass early game. Mid and late game is hugely in Protoss favor.
Either you go MMM which auto-lose vs. Storm without perfect micro. Or you go Mech which is better vs. Storm but can’t be used on larger maps due to lack of mobility.
I am actually thinking of switching races or maybe take a break from the game until the next patch is out.
are you serious? You HAVE to have PERFECT storms or sentry forcefields to deal with MMM, while MMM can just attack move to the win. Protoss may be strong lategame, but to survive the earlygame is absolute hell, and any small mistake you make is deadly. Look at the game yesterday, Fake boxer vs Sangho.. Sangho was forcefielding his ramp, but missed it by ONE second, and instantly 5 marauders in his base and GG.. If thats so easy to do, a former SC1 progamer wouldnt ever make such a mistake. Theorycrafting doesnt work.
Stop theorycrafting, because it is pointless. Everything in this game counters something, if you are saying storm counters everything terran does.. how about getting ONE unit that can take out 40 templars with a single 125 energy.. a Ghost! There you go, storms all useless. GG. Cant Feedback it because feedback range is horrible compared to EMP. See how theorycrafting works?
I love how many terrans are QQing now because they simply need to do more than attack-move off 2base to win everygame now. Look at top terrans, like Nada, Fake boxer and even real Boxer, they are still looking insanely dominant in ALL their games, because they play it like SC1, not this "oh im gonna put everything I have into one timing push with mass marauder, and if it fails Im leaving" like we see so often with SC2 terrans.
Switch races to protoss plz, you wont win many games high up on the ladder without absolutely flawless execution. If Protoss was so unbelievably strong, we'd see more than 1 protoss in the GSL round of 8, instead of 5 terrans.
On October 30 2010 06:40 5unrise wrote: I agree with Turpin in that Zerg is definitely not UP at the moment, with the game roughly about even in TvZ, but what Boxer is effectively claiming is that Zerg has an advantage over Terran, which is definitely ridiculous.
EPT
