EPTBoxer: might go random if Terran gets nerfed again. - Page…
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Synk
United States297 Posts
I really don't see how Terran can be UP right now, their still doing fine in tournaments ( they have the most representation still ) despite having to adjust their play-style to a pretty large patch so quickly. I'm around 1650 diamond ( I know not great ) and as a Zerg player, I've always felt its very hard to beat late game Terran as their 200/200 army simply destroys a 200/200 Zerg army unless your more than 50% t3 units ( which is unlikely in the first engagement ). This whole concept of being able to re-max instantly is comical really, any Terran who defeats my army just rolls into my base, rapes a hatch or two and then picks off any units as they begin to rally in. Ultras take 70 something seconds to hatch? Broodlords even longer, so unless his army is weak to roaches and lings I don't see that really helping much and even still its about 30-40 sec to hatch and regather forces which is plenty of time for him to destroy my econ and win the game. Siege tanks still feel utterly broken, they just negate any kind of ground force period after about 6 of them except maybe ultras in the right position if the T doesn't have a mass of thor or mauraders ( big ifs ). This whole concept of not being able to attack a siege tank entrenched position to me is incredibly stupid because once you have 6 or more your always siege tank entrenched and you just slowly move up a few at a time and slow push into your opponents base, forcing them to just suicide their army into your siege tank death line and winning nearly 3 to 1 in the battle. I'm sure toss doesn't have nearly as big of an issue against tanks though and I'm not here saying theres nothing wrong with PvT as I have no idea, but ZvT feels very hard to me even still. If the Terran stays on equal footing with you macro wise(yes this is possible contrary to popular belief) and masses a strong army its very hard to stop once he pushes out as Zerg. Even reducing his force by 50% with a maxed army to me is a "good" exchange and I still probably wont have enough time (30-40 sec) to get lings and roaches out before he pushes into my first mining base, and there is simply no way to rebuild ultralisk or broodlords in time ( 70 sec ). This is all assuming I have time to save up like 3k mineral and 2k gas before the engagement as well, which is unlikely against a good player. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On October 30 2010 21:27 MockHamill wrote: Yes Terran vs. Protoss is almost a joke right now. Terran gets no advantage from being a little bit stronger early game since force fielding your ramp let you bypass early game. Mid and late game is hugely in Protoss favor. Either you go MMM which auto-lose vs. Storm without perfect micro. Or you go Mech which is better vs. Storm but can’t be used on larger maps due to lack of mobility. I am actually thinking of switching races or maybe take a break from the game until the next patch is out. Sorry to say, but complaints like these are hilarious. So your options are MMM or mech? Ever occur to you to mix those units together? Or use some higher tech units? QQ about storm? no ghosts from the terran? honestly why do you even post that garbage? So you cant 1a anymore to victory, its time to now learn to play for real. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Grimjim
United States395 Posts
That's not exactly the most honorable route. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On October 30 2010 23:10 tacrats wrote: Sorry to say, but complaints like these are hilarious. So your options are MMM or mech? Ever occur to you to mix those units together? Or use some higher tech units? QQ about storm? no ghosts from the terran? honestly why do you even post that garbage? So you cant 1a anymore to victory, its time to now learn to play for real. I think you're missing the even more 'interesting' point that he suggests P 1-base until t3. | ||
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TheGreatHegemon
61 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Most people probably dont really think that terran is weak now, they just repeat what the pros are saying instead of having their own opinion. Same happened when IdrA or Fruitdealer complained. Everyone went crazy. But guess what, Fruitdealer won when zerg was UP, and now he lost when they supposedly are OP. What does that tell you? Balance is really good atm, and i am sure Boxer is overreacting aswell, maybe he even knows he is. It's as if people want the game not to be balanced, cause everytime some pro mentions balance everyone goes apeshit, but when that same person says that everything is fairly balanced, nobody even mentions it. Strange. | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On October 30 2010 23:02 Skyze wrote: are you serious? You HAVE to have PERFECT storms or sentry forcefields to deal with MMM, while MMM can just attack move to the win. Protoss may be strong lategame, but to survive the earlygame is absolute hell, and any small mistake you make is deadly. Look at the game yesterday, Fake boxer vs Sangho.. Sangho was forcefielding his ramp, but missed it by ONE second, and instantly 5 marauders in his base and GG.. If thats so easy to do, a former SC1 progamer wouldnt ever make such a mistake. Theorycrafting doesnt work. Stop theorycrafting, because it is pointless. Everything in this game counters something, if you are saying storm counters everything terran does.. how about getting ONE unit that can take out 40 templars with a single 125 energy.. a Ghost! There you go, storms all useless. GG. Cant Feedback it because feedback range is horrible compared to EMP. See how theorycrafting works? I love how many terrans are QQing now because they simply need to do more than attack-move off 2base to win everygame now. Look at top terrans, like Nada, Fake boxer and even real Boxer, they are still looking insanely dominant in ALL their games, because they play it like SC1, not this "oh im gonna put everything I have into one timing push with mass marauder, and if it fails Im leaving" like we see so often with SC2 terrans. Switch races to protoss plz, you wont win many games high up on the ladder without absolutely flawless execution. If Protoss was so unbelievably strong, we'd see more than 1 protoss in the GSL round of 8, instead of 5 terrans. rofl he was greedy and wanted to get away with just some sentreis thrown in there, that's entirely his fault and has nothing to do with the "oh he did a small mistake so lost". If you don't want to die to stupid stuff, make units, how hard is that, protoss players always want to get away with some sentries randomly thrown in there. Must be hard to follow RTS basics like having stuff eh Trying to make it sound like protoss late game against terran requires that much micro and execution is extremely hilarious too But anyway I doubt boxer will ever go random, if he does that'll be only to practise and figure out which race he wants to play in the end. | ||
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NikonTC
United Kingdom418 Posts
Here we are a month later, we have the EXACT same argument, the only difference being that the races are reversed, and both sides have seamlessly transitioned to the other side of the argument, while still being convinced they're completely right.. does no-one else see how bizzare this is? | ||
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SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
But i see that 99% of players suffer a disease. Is lazyness and winning about stuff. They just want the ez race. Everyone is searching for ez race nobody wants to "waste" time to find more stuff instead just want to cry about imba and OP stuff. Ya there something that are probably more stronger than others. I hope this game turn a shit of only macro and that unit counter that unit just because everything is perfect balance... I think the old players in bw will understand what i say or dont because is just stupid and bad english. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On October 30 2010 23:52 NikonTC wrote: The memories of some people on this board go beyond the shortest of short term. If i came to this board a month ago 90% of the balance discussions would go "zerg is UP" "no zergs are bad and should l2p" "even the top players are complaining that zerg is UP look!" "they should just spend more time practicing and finding more creative ways to use infestors! infestors are OP but noone uses them". Here we are a month later, we have the EXACT same argument, the only difference being that the races are reversed, and both sides have seamlessly transitioned to the other side of the argument, while still being convinced they're completely right.. does no-one else see how bizzare this is? This is true to some extent but currently: a) we are 2 weeks (?) after patch so we haven't seen the full effect of the changes b) we are in a situation where Zerg can use old strategies but a lot of Terran cheese was taken out so those Terrans relying on it need to adjust their game. This can take more than 2 weeks. c) We have Terrans doing well at a high level (Foxer, Nada schooling Zerg opponents), the ones we have seen go down were often trying to use the nerfed strategies instead of adjusting as the successful ones have done. On the other hand the Zerg complaints were consistent for months and it was a problem since the late beta (when thors got massively better and roaches got beaten into the ground). Let's see how this plays out for a little. My experience both in playing and in viewing pro games is that Terrans with good macro and who know how to pressure a Zerg are doing fine. Those who relied on 1 base all in strategies or even just turtling until a 2 base push that instantly wins the game and have not adapted are having a lot of trouble for rather obvious reasons. Now Terran is required to scout and actually know Zerg timings rather than just have a build order and execute it properly. Don't get me wrong, Terrans still dictate the pace of the game but now they have to be more careful in doing so. | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
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Euriti
Denmark72 Posts
On October 30 2010 20:39 jHERO wrote: im a 1.5k diamond Terran and it doesnt take a pro skilled player to see the flaws in SC2 terran although i do admit, sometimes early game terran can be quite strong, but once late game, its all the way downhill for us, it doesnt cost much to play safer early game for protoss or zerg, a couple of well placed spines completely shuts down helion harass, couple of sentrys on ramp delays MM push till your immortal/collusus gets out protoss late game multiple collusus, high templar storm, obliterates MMM, while chargelots/immortals easily breaks siege tanks, so it is impossible to play without MMM, warpgate ability to instantly teleport x units zerg late game macro, is just too strong at the moment, its hard for a terran to push out, because once he does, he is fully committed, and if terran loses a battle, terran will be hugely down on supply, while zerg can instantly 200/200 'Instantly 200' implies that the Zerg has the actual minerals and gas to do so. You can't just remake a 200/200 army after losing your previous 200/200 army unless you've stockpiled minerals/gas | ||
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mols0n
Canada388 Posts
Early game(strongest to weakest) Terran Protoss Zerg Midgame Protoss Terran Zerg Lategame Zerg Protoss Big Gap Terran | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
On October 31 2010 00:24 mols0n wrote: This is how i see the balance issues right now Early game(strongest to weakest) Terran Protoss Zerg Midgame Protoss Terran Zerg Lategame Zerg Protoss Big Gap Terran Once the other races learn to macro more bases faster itll be more balanced. Like nada said you need to be equal bases against zerg to have a chance, which makes sense. two terran bases= to 4 zerg bases doesn't sound like it would make the most sense. | ||
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On October 30 2010 17:08 StarcraftMan wrote: First and foremost, Boxer and Nada are two of the best BW players ever and have more insight than any other player in the GSL right now. Yes, Boxer's APM may be slower because of his age, but don't doubt his insight into SC2 as he single handedly changed the way Terran played in BW - something that no other BW player has even come close to accomplishing. Really? Oov? Flash in later stages? Exactly what justifies this claim that those 2 have the best insight into SC2 now? Their influence in BW gives them some credibility, but doesnt automatically propel them to demi-god-status in a game they too are relatively new to. No disrespect to the people in this thread that disagree with Boxer, but unless you reached the level of understanding that Boxer had for BW, what Boxer is saying about SC2 imbalance has a deeper level of understanding that we will probably never understand. Also, as Kaisr stated, Boxer took the most "useless" and "weakest" race in BW at the beginning of his era and showed the naysayers how to win with it. Nobody in the GSL has ever accomplished that, not to mention anybody in all of the TL forums. So when the "Emperor" makes a point of balance issues, I think we should pay a little more attention to what he has to say. Nobody in the GSL accomplished that huh? Because when Fruitdealer one the GSL with Z, they were already the OP beast? The Emperor does have the right to voice his opinions about imbalances he perceives to be there, however if he's to act out his role as influential "Emperor" I think we can all agree a QQ'ing tone isnt the best one to take on. | ||
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zomgad
185 Posts
boxer said something so its probably true (btw nada also claimed in interview that nerfs to T and buffing zerg in recent patch is too much) this two are probably most accomplishd progamers in history of starcraft (atm also top players in sc2) and what they say has alot more weight than analysis .from bronze players so dont come here with spreedsheet and tell how much they suck and zergs are more skilled. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On October 31 2010 00:38 zomgad wrote: gotta love the zerg players bitching on boxer while all their Z heroes are like 10x times more whinny and sad, look on fruitdealer claiming to change race few days before winning gsl, idra or dimaga are whining from the very beginning of beta, boxer said something so its probably true (btw nada also claimed in interview that nerfs to T and buffing zerg in recent patch is too much) this two are probably most accomplishd progamers in history of starcraft (atm also top players in sc2) and what they say has alot more weight than analysis .from bronze players so dont come here with spreedsheet and tell how much they suck and zergs are more skilled. I love the, boxer said something so it's true argument. Btw, those "zerg players" have been playing SC2 a lot longer then boxer. SC1 =/= SC2 | ||
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klauz619
453 Posts
two terran bases= to 4 zerg bases doesn't sound like it would make the most sense. Mutas are the reason terran can't just expand blindly and be completely safe like zerg. Expansions take 110 seconds to build, and take 3 minutes to pay for themselves, so the 4 base advantage doesn't start showing for a while, but terran only has a short amount of time to just go straight to the main base and destroy the zerg. 5base terran will still lose to 5 base zerg. Zerg has 10 larvas per minute per hatchery, and can pop up a 150 supply army in one minute if minerals allow him to (with 4-5 bases, yes its very easy). Terran cannot, unless he makes 40 factories or something. Once ultras are available the game is over pretty much. As you can see from the GSL. | ||
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