EPT
[D] Losira vs Alicia and the future of PvZ - Page 7
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
Oh, didn't notice why you used quotes on "all-in". And btw sorry if I sounded harsh, it's just really annoying to hear that used everywhere Also, would anyone say this is the "counter" or "answer" to 3 gate Expand? Sort of like 3 hatch hydra? Economical while putting on good pressure. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Wouldn't look too much into it being the "future" of zvp thats for sure. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Timings against the 3gate expand using roaches and lings are stronger than previously realized (except maybe EU server? yeah?) and WOW Losira just keeps pounding until his bloodied opponent cannot block the punches. | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:25 blade55555 wrote: This isn't the future of zvp. This roach/ling attack I have seen many times on idra's stream, done it many times myself, seen other zergs do it in the past few months. I was surprised at how artosis/tasteless said it was a "new" build. I mean I agree with what morrow said, alicia just played it bad. Forge in the main, didn't even make a cannon. FF's were great but just handled it poorly. Wouldn't look too much into it being the "future" of zvp thats for sure. 1) Like I edited in, I would change the topic if I could. It seems to be pulling people away from discussing the actual build and counterbuilds. 2) I think Idra does a slightly less economic version that hits a bit earlier and is much more all-in. Correct me if I'm wrong though, by linking me to some game he used the same timings. Or feel free to provide a replay of you doing it yourself. | ||
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Ezekyle
Australia607 Posts
On April 29 2011 15:41 mytent wrote: High level masters here. I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control). The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind... Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing. | ||
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mytent
United States156 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:45 Ezekyle wrote: Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing. lol.. please tell me you're joking.. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:45 Ezekyle wrote: Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing. IIRC this build crushes any sort of 1 base all in as you get Roaches early enough to delay getting rolled over and then ling reinforcements mop up everything else- especially if you wait until the last moment to cancel the Nexus. I agree though, if you do manage to trade (or even have a handful of units left over, without sacrificing probes), you're usually in a better spot than most give credit for. It's super important to scout as soon as possible after the attack and apply pressure while pumping econ. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:45 Ezekyle wrote: Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing. I think he says it because you lose all ability to be offensive after it, you have to use virtually every forcefield to stop the rush and you are guaranteed to lose sentries, then you have also delayed tech by 2-3mins easily on top of being in an uncomfortable position when wanting to take a third. I don't know if you have experienced it, but even after defending it, you don't feel you are in a good position at all. Regarding your all-ins/timing pushes, at least most of those all-ins have some ability to be scouted--and all have the ability to be read by some way by your opponents, enough to make a judgement call, this all-in hits before Protoss has any ability to scout it at all. Too early to be throwing around "the future" or "balance", but this isn't a joke of a build to hold, might mean two cannons at your natural will become standard, who knows. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
I dont get why people put down on Alicias play. He played really well on both maps and couldnt do shit unless he knew what was coming. How are you supposed to afford a gateway to wall off when you've layed down your Stargate and you also need to produce units? The timing of this zerg pressure is very good vs a 3-gate sentry expand. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
I don't agree with this build "being used all the time forever" How attacking after 2 base saturation is allinish ? People are just brainwashed by the bad zerg mindset (being aggressive = allin and expanding and droning = cool). How much protoss and terran builds are 2 base build->pressure/attack then expand ? Yeah, 90% of P and T builds. So why when a zerg does it it's an allin ? About the "being used forever". Yes, this is not new, but no, this is not often used (mainly because it's not cool enough to attack, to be a man you must expand and mAcRo like a MAN) This mindset is killing zergs. This build should be the standard ZvP build. Every zerg should use that build every game or so, because it's simply the most effective and safer build you can do. You're guaranteed to do some damage (or even kill the P) while being able to take a reasonable fast 3rd. Yes, you tech slower than most builds, but is this a problem ? Just ask yourself : what am I doing with my fast tech as zerg ? Most of the time, nothing. So delaying it is not a problem. Just compare with broodwar, where protosses must play an plan their builds with the fear of a bust. This cause a lot of restrictions to them. Restrictions that don't exist yet in sc2 because zergs just want to macro, so protosses know they can just do whatever they want. If this build was standard and used very often, the whole protoss side of the matchup would have to adapt in a way that will in any case be favorable to zergs. This build has only upsides when you compare it to any other zerg vP builds. It's a perfect mix between macro and aggression. You should read Losira's interview after the game, it's like "I didn't lost any game during practice so I entered this match very confident" Perhaps in the future this build will be regarded as terrible. But in the current state of the game this build is a necessity for the matchup to evolve to something more zerg friendly. edit : yeah Goliath \o/ | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first. when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably. i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc) | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:10 billyX333 wrote: Ive been doing this since the end of beta. I had wins off of whitera and huk with this cheesy build during beta. really really cheesy strategy and is terrible vs good building placements + forcefields. ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals. I don't think it's cheesy at all the way Losira does it. He's ahead on workers, he's taking his third before his opponents second is even saturated and has gas running, he has two queens out with a third on the way for his third base, he has Lair on the way by the time the attack gets cut off, etc. I do recognize that some of the roach/ling early attacks are cheesy. Some are made off 1base. Some are made by cutting drones. But not all are. This particular version is incredibly refined with some very well practiced timings. It's sort of like Alicia's 3gate pressure expand in PvT, in that you aren't actually giving up any economy but still putting high pressure on your opponent to make sure he isn't cutting corners to get ahead. Note that I know that as a zerg, you always give up economy to make an army, but what I mean is that Losira is still ahead in workers when he decides to make that army. It's not like he cut drones at 20 and went all-in. He has 35 workers when he decides to start making his roaches and lings. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote: Losira attacks before 2 base saturation (he gets his dronecount to 34 / 33 (if he gets the safety evo) ) so this build is semi allin, it definitely has to do some damage. also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first. when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably. i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc) He also attacks before Alicia has full 2 base saturation. Less probes on the field than drones actually. You're right that it definately has to do some damage if he commits to it fully, but since he has full scouting he can decide not to go through with it if the protoss walls off and drops cannons. He can drop his 3rd and get lair instead, and get drones instead of all those lings (I'll give you the roaches, since they have to be made around 6:30, and the Protoss might wall off and cannon up after they're made). Also, his voidray was out when the attack hit. The supplycap did hurt him a bit since he wasn't able to get out as many gateway units, but it didn't affect his voidray really. It was just a bad rally as you said. In fact, if he had been supplyblocked longer it might not have sailed off to the XNT  I do have a question on how your friend held it on XNC though; was his natural as "clean" as Alicia's? Or was he semi-walling and adding cannons beyond the first? | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:34 truthless wrote: I don't think it's cheesy at all the way Losira does it. He's ahead on workers, he's taking his third before his opponents second is even saturated and has gas running, he has two queens out with a third on the way for his third base, he has Lair on the way by the time the attack gets cut off, etc. I do recognize that some of the roach/ling early attacks are cheesy. Some are made off 1base. Some are made by cutting drones. But not all are. This particular version is incredibly refined with some very well practiced timings. It's sort of like Alicia's 3gate pressure expand in PvT, in that you aren't actually giving up any economy but still putting high pressure on your opponent to make sure he isn't cutting corners to get ahead. Note that I know that as a zerg, you always give up economy to make an army, but what I mean is that Losira is still ahead in workers when he decides to make that army. It's not like he cut drones at 20 and went all-in. He has 35 workers when he decides to start making his roaches and lings. Wow. seriously, why do you assume you knew how I did this. I spent weeks tinkering with this build. I mapped this build out in such detail with so many different variations during the end of beta. I preferred the 2 gases + 32-34 mineral mining drones because it was least all in and had speedroach tech. Of course it gets ahead of the protoss in workers. This build is as old as the dinosaurs and resurfaced during the +1 range roach buff. I did this build literally for HUNDREDS of games vs protoss during the end of beta and during retail. This build does not work if your opponent creates a wall in at the natural with many sentries and opens robos. In fact, 3gate expand with robo crushes this build as long as you place your buildings at your natural. | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:43 tdt wrote: This is why we are getting our 33 second zealots back since it makes him pool first. Alicia also failed to block expo which I feel is necessary these days. He did pool first in both games... | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:43 billyX333 wrote: Wow. seriously, why do you assume you knew how I did this. I spent weeks tinkering with this build. I mapped this build out in such detail with so many different variations during the end of beta. I preferred the 2 gases + 32-34 mineral mining drones because it was least all in and had speedroach tech. Of course it gets ahead of the protoss in workers. This build is as old as the dinosaurs and resurfaced during the +1 range roach buff. I did this build literally for HUNDREDS of games vs protoss during the end of beta and during retail. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I never meant to imply that I knew how you did it. I just don't think Losira's build was cheesy at all, and it sounded like you did, so I used those other examples as what I might consider cheesy, purely for contrast, not as a means of describing what you might've done. Losira saw a weakness in the open natural and exploited it with a very well timed out build. That's all imo. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote: I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out. there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really... this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself | ||
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