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I see your point and I kind of agree with some of it. You can't argue that he's not changing the metagame though. Like I said before, he's setting himself up with the option of doing this until ~6:30, at which point he decides whether to go through with it or not. He has full map control at this point and can easily decide whether or not to try and bust Alicia.
If he had seen a forge+cannon+4th gateway wall-off on the low ground, I doubt we would've seen the same kind of reaction from Losira. It's hard to know for sure of course, maybe he just felt that confident he could bust Alicia. But my point is that the fact that such a refined build that instantly kills a Protoss that "cuts corners", without truly sacrificing anything in the early game, is a good thing. It would destroy any protoss going for the 4gate nexus-cancel for one thing, and that alone is reason enough to be happy.
Note that until 6:30, the only things he's really sacrificed from a standard speedling opening is that he got his speed a little later, and he dropped a roach warren (something most zerg do these days regardless). It's not until 6:30, when he cuts drones and makes those 8 roaches because he scouts an open natural, that he commits to the attack. Up until then it's a standard speedling opening build with some minor tweaks that gives him the option of punishing the protoss. Having that option without sacrificing anything significant is crucial for the metagame imho.
edit: Also, when talking about risks, this game is really all about risk vs reward. You can't really win any games without taking any risks. I wouldn't call any strategy supersafe, in that it might not lead to you losing the game. If some strategy had a 100% winrate, everyone would use it. There are always risks, some greater, some smaller. Sure, going 3gate sentry expand with a forge+cannon on the low ground is quite possibly as safe as you can be from being killed straight up, you're still taking another sort of risk with that; you're telling your enemy that you aren't going to be attacking him for a while, and that allows him to take greater risks (for greater rewards later on) that he otherwise would not.
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Morrow and Minigun and Darkforce hit the nail on the head pretty well, but then again they are all pros and great at their races lol. I think this build really is not risky almost whatsoever, i mean theres some small things he risks but there so small compared to the damage he can cause thats important damage like kill sentries, nexus cancel, supply cap you can almost pay the attack off and then some. As long as you dont die to a proxy stargate or a dt managing to sneak into your base and if you can accomplish on one of those things fully you dont really come out behind i wouldnt think.
Its just such a good refined build made to punish protoss for being greedy, being unprepared, and if the player isnt very good at "crisis management" it can be even a game ender. We all know despite amazing FFs by Alicia he did a couple things wrong like the forge placement and all it really takes is one mistake for this build to be really effective.
Not to mention when you think about it if LosirA focuses more on probes but doesnt get many of the sentries that is almost better in the long run. When you take the time that Alicia had to spend to make those probes for the expo thats important and valuable time and chrono boosts invested for the boom in economy Alicia is trying to obtain and by slowing that process down you cripple the amount of options by a huge number that the protoss can really choose after the engagement. If he tries to macro heavy to make up for it Losira almost had 3 bases done by the time the attack was over and he can make drones way faster even if Alicia chrono boosts nonstop thus putting LosirA more ahead. If Alicia decides to counter by the time he gets to LosirAs base he will be more than prepared and still be able to be ahead in the economy because his production ability will be far superior to Alicias.
Obviously this "style" has been used before many times by other players but LosirA really got down to the math of it and knew all possible outcomes and how to approach them and knew what he had to do to come out ahead and in the end thats all that matters.
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On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote:
I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really... this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself
I guess cutting corners is more right than anything, I have noticed my self getting pretty greedy these days with my 3gate expo >_>
Though you could have left out where you underhandedly call Alicia bad, it is easy to cut corners as Protoss, but when you get punished for them it looks worse than it really is--at least in the early game where one bad forcefield can spiral out of control. Given his position, I doubt there would be many players who could have handled it much better than he could, sans maybe MC. He has played amazingly well against other players (i.e MVP, his recent PvTs against MKP and Nada were very well executed).
Whenever Protoss screws up in the early game they look like massive scrubs, if you were to discount everyone who looked like they did poorly as Toss, then the only Toss you could actually call good would be MC. I doubt you could ever find a replay where a Protoss ever losses to this build "gracefully", you either hold it off or fail miserably
EDIT: Example IPL spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +If you watch Kiwikaki vs Idra, in the span of two seconds Kiwikaki goes from fine to dead, in that small amount of time he needed to land some of the best forcefields ever, but didn't quite manage it, but that doesn't mean he is bad...unless you also think we should rethink him as a "solid and great Protoss player"
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On April 29 2011 18:24 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote:On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote:
I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really... this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself I guess cutting corners is more right than anything, I have noticed my self getting pretty greedy these days with my 3gate expo >_> Though you could have left out where you underhandedly call Alicia bad, it is easy to cut corners as Protoss, but when you get punished for them it looks worse than it really is--at least in the early game where one bad forcefield can spiral out of control. Given his position, I doubt there would be many players who could have handled it much better than he could, sans maybe MC. He has played amazingly well against other players (i.e MVP, his recent PvTs against MKP and Nada were very well executed). Whenever Protoss screws up in the early game they look like massive scrubs, if you were to discount everyone who looked like they did poorly as Toss, then the only Toss you could actually call good would be MC. I doubt you could ever find a replay where a Protoss ever losses to this build "gracefully", you either hold it off or fail miserably EDIT: Example IPL spoilers + Show Spoiler +If you watch Kiwikaki vs Idra, in the span of two seconds Kiwikaki goes from fine to dead. Unless you also think we should rethink him as a "solid and great Protoss player"
i was talking about his pvz in this series
not him as player in whole :p ive been impressed by his pvt really so
and yes kiwikaki is not a solid and great player. when i say great player i talk about the level of losira, mc, mvp and those guys. if you wanna discuss strategy, the games you analyse should have players that play perfect or near perfect. and i think losira vs alicia series was not a good example of showing the potential of the build
and solid is something i rarely see in sc2
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On April 29 2011 18:10 truthless wrote:
I see your point and I kind of agree with some of it. You can't argue that he's not changing the metagame though. Like I said before, he's setting himself up with the option of doing this until ~6:30, at which point he decides whether to go through with it or not. He has full map control at this point and can easily decide whether or not to try and bust Alicia.
If he had seen a forge+cannon+4th gateway wall-off on the low ground, I doubt we would've seen the same kind of reaction from Losira. It's hard to know for sure of course, maybe he just felt that confident he could bust Alicia. But my point is that the fact that such a refined build that instantly kills a Protoss that "cuts corners", without truly sacrificing anything in the early game, is a good thing. It would destroy any protoss going for the 4gate nexus-cancel for one thing, and that alone is reason enough to be happy.
Note that until 6:30, the only things he's really sacrificed from a standard speedling opening is that he got his speed a little later, and he dropped a roach warren (something most zerg do these days regardless). It's not until 6:30, when he cuts drones and makes those 8 roaches because he scouts an open natural, that he commits to the attack. Up until then it's a standard speedling opening build with some minor tweaks that gives him the option of punishing the protoss. Having that option without sacrificing anything significant is crucial for the metagame imho.
The way you speak about the build and how little sacrifice there is, I guess it could be the "future of PvZ", in a very loose sense, the future being the Zerg just goes and kills Protoss if they ever think about being greedy
i was talking about his pvz in this series
not him as player in whole ive been impressed by his pvt really so
and yes kiwikaki is not a solid and great player. when i say great player i talk about the level of losira, mc, mvp and those guys. if you wanna discuss strategy, the games you analyse should have players that play perfect or near perfect. and i think losira vs alicia series was not a good example of showing the potential of the build
and solid is something i rarely see in sc2
High standards ;o, to each his own. I guess my own level of "solid and good" falls more in line where it includes people you like, idra,kiwi,nani etc 0o
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Can't really call someone who had a 5-0 winrate against zerg beating players like Nestea, Zenio and Losira bad at PvZ imo  He simply took some risks in these two games and Losira punished him brutally for it. Which is great imo - zerg need to be better at punishing risktakers, and not just sit on their lazy asses and macro macro macro.
It's why I'm so wary of going forge fast expand in PvZ, even on maps like Tal'darim Altar. It's becoming more and more popular of punishing that by just baneling-busting the forge and streaming lings in.
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I have tried couple of games of this against a friend yesterday and although both of us are not the skill level these players were he found an easy way to stop this.
He attacks me with 3 gates before I can bring my 1st batch of roaches to the field and then keeps FF my ramp while he takes out the expansion.
What Losira does he makes 4 lings and that is his whole force until he has (late) Roach warren finished and only then starts roaches followed by lings. Protoss going for 3 gate rush after faking a nexus is going to crush this, especially on smaller maps (he beat me on Metalopolis close air positions).
Same as this Losira rush tries to use a certain timing to crush the toss, toss can use a timing to frack up the zerg that is trying to do this.
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solid has nothing to do with how good you are
solid build means it has potential to end up equal or ahead or slightly behind vs anything the opponent does assuming both plays perfect or near perfect.
if you open with a solid build it means your ignoring the current medigame and who your playing against. you simply just play by the rules of all possibilities. the key is to scout to trim down possibilities and then you need sick preparation and plans for all scenarios possible
even if i look at the best players in the world they arent even playing like this more than 50% of their games simply because you cant in sc2 or they have not figured out yet how to do it.
i promise you a player like idra wouldnt be playing non-solid in zvp every time i tune in to his stream if there was a possibility to do that in zvp. i bet he has tried to figure it out and find the solid for hundreds or even thousands of zvp games just to find it. but now it seems like all top zvp players have given up on trying to play solid because it usually puts you very behind or you die to some rush
so take a proper 3warpgate expo for example. its solid. worst case scenario is that zerg droned up more than is possible if he was following the rules so toss ends up slightly behind
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On April 29 2011 18:47 -Archangel- wrote:
I have tried couple of games of this against a friend yesterday and although both of us are not the skill level these players were he found an easy way to stop this.
He attacks me with 3 gates before I can bring my 1st batch of roaches to the field and then keeps FF my ramp while he takes out the expansion.
What Losira does he makes 4 lings and that is his whole force until he has (late) Roach warren finished and only then starts roaches followed by lings. Protoss going for 3 gate rush after faking a nexus is going to crush this, especially on smaller maps (he beat me on Metalopolis close air positions).
Same as this Losira rush tries to use a certain timing to crush the toss, toss can use a timing to frack up the zerg that is trying to do this.
Sort of, but you can't just blindly be doing the build of course. That's the lovely part about it; you're not blind, since you have map control with the speedlings. The protoss is. He doesn't know if you have more than just those 4 speedlings. For all he knows he could be walking out into the middle of the map with 3 sentries and a zealot when there's 20 speedlings out. No doubt your friend knew what build you were going to do and used that against you.
Otherwise, the timings don't really add up. I mean, a 3gate push comes around 5:45 at the earliest. By then you should've scouted him moving out around 5:00-5:30 with a couple of units and a probe, plenty of time to respond to a regular 3-4 gate push. At this point you can just abandon your plan to do the 7:30 attack and mass speedlings to respond to the aggression. If you're able to trap those units in the middle of the map, you're ahead.
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On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I didnt see your post earlier, i guess i could have just agreed with you instead of writing a post myself =)
Really, people should not assume too much just because a strat worked in one bo3.
Also, even if you get spore crawlers in time, you are still really late on your t2 tech, so you cant take a third any time soon and protoss has total mapcontrol with his DTs.
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On April 29 2011 19:37 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling) I didnt see your post earlier, i guess i could have just agreed with you instead of writing a post myself =) Really, people should not assume too much just because a strat worked in one bo3. Also, even if you get spore crawlers in time, you are still really late on your t2 tech, so you cant take a third any time soon and protoss has total mapcontrol with his DTs.
I still don't understand how you are behind.
I mean, a DT expand has less units than a 3gate expand, in that same situation how do you stop yourself from getting overrun with just 3 DT's (or 2 if one is sent to the Zergs base), 3-2 Sentries, few Zealots and possibly a cannon?
With 8-9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, you can flood the Toss's natural and kill everything, even if there are DT's, how is he even going to expand again after that? It doesn't matter if you take losses from the DT's, as long as you are stopping that expo you have pretty much won
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i literally just did a very similar strat today..its been my standard ZvP since they upgraded roaches range to 4...
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He would obviously have dropped the spore if he didn't see as many sentries as he saw, and probably dropped the evo chamber in the first game as well if he hadn't seen the obvious sentry expand. But that's just my read on the game. He's not any more vulnerable to DTs than any other speedling expand would be imo.
Personally I would probably opt to go for the Lair if I saw that as well, assuming it's either a DT expand or a Stargate build. That's sort of what I mentioned in my OP; that DT expanding seems to be the only straight-up counter to this opening, other than excellent forcefield play off a 3gate sentry expand together with good building placement on the low ground (removing the possibility for aggression early on).
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On artosis's stream today he said either void ray expansion or dt expansion, i think if yoou could chrono out 2 void rays and pump out units off of 2 gates you can defenetly hold off this kind of pressure with minimal damage. Also if they are going this build would a cannon expand be viable (even if not a 16 nexus cannon expand but maybe a later one after a gateway or 2) I think a decent number of cannons could easily hold this off and help transition into the mid gaame.
Even before I saw losira do this build yesterday it must have already been somewhat popular as i lost 3 games in a row to pretty much the exact same strategy after doing a sentry expand. So i dont even think its the future of PVZ i think it is already here.
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On April 29 2011 20:28 Executor1 wrote:
On artosis's stream today he said either void ray expansion or dt expansion, i think if yoou could chrono out 2 void rays and pump out units off of 2 gates you can defenetly hold off this kind of pressure with minimal damage. Also if they are going this build would a cannon expand be viable (even if not a 16 nexus cannon expand but maybe a later one after a gateway or 2) I think a decent number of cannons could easily hold this off and help transition into the mid gaame.
Even before I saw losira do this build yesterday it must have already been somewhat popular as i lost 3 games in a row to pretty much the exact same strategy after doing a sentry expand. So i dont even think its the future of PVZ i think it is already here.
The DT expansion he was doing would have died long before the DT's actually came out. He dropped his Dark shrine like 7mins in, this attack hits somewhere like 7:30min~? Voidray expand with 2 rays and 2gates seems good though.
There are around 9 Roaches that come out, not sure if a Cannon expansion is that strong against it, it will definitely come down to timings, that is for sure, but on maps where cannon expos can be done, this build isn't that good anyway because there is a fairly narrow choke area
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On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 07:41 dementrio wrote:On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling) You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame. your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 07:50 Samhax wrote:On April 29 2011 07:31 Alejandrisha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling) I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far. Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly). To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural. I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand. Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech. the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there... or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
Honestly i think your being pretty stubborn about this and may have a twisted view on the ZVP matchup similair to Idra. Youve become so frusterated with it that you refuse to beleive anything could work against such a safe build especially when youve spent alot of time figuring it out yourself only to get more frusterated. Zergs frusteration over the past few months in the ZVP matchup is understandable but dont let it cloud your judgement on new and interesting builds. Also 2 gate DT defenetly doesnt kill this build 100% ive seen people try it and you can totally get your evo chamber up in time (artosis tried it on his stream today). I think you are a great player  but dont let your frusterations cloud your judgement this build is viable and i think its far less risky then droning up like a mad man and hoping P doesnt apply pressure. Thats just my 2 cents obviously i am not where near your skill level but that doesnt mean that i cant look at this objectively and see that its a viable build that shouldnt just be dismissed as risky
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Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
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On April 29 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Losira attacks before 2 base saturation (he gets his dronecount to 34 / 33 (if he gets the safety evo) ) so this build is semi allin, it definitely has to do some damage.
also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first.
when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably.
i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc)
well im sure after 10 games of doing the same build your practice partner would eventually wise up to it. Im not saying its an opening that should be used every single game but i would say it is defenetly a very good opening zergs should keep in their arsenal.
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On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
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On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well:
- he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map...
- his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money.
- after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot.
Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
This. Alicia's response was in no way optimal. This is not a revolutionizing build. It will not have a big impact on PvZ.
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