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On April 29 2011 23:50 truthless wrote:You can't really fake a 3gate sentry expo vs zerg since they have map control and will see your lack of sentries. Of course, you can fake that you're going DTs by hiding sentries, but the other way around doesn't really work, unless the zerg is daft  My only point was that it would stop the 8roach/mass ling push at 7:30. It forces the zerg to go up to lair if he wants a third. He can ofc make mass lings to harass the nexus, but that's a fair trade imho (you can still cancel the nexus at that point), and shortly thereafter cannons will be up and you can restart the nexus. Zerg can ofc go mass roach and go all-in by cutting drones around in the low 20s; that should hit around 6:00-6:30, so he'll be able to kill the forge and gateway (and possibly the cannon) on the low ground, but the nexus will be cancelled. Protoss would switch over to sentries at the top of the ramp and drop 2-4 more gates in his base after that and just delay the roaches long enough (~30 sec) for his DT's to come out and hold the choke. Safe nexus after that, and you're ahead on probes, and can deny the zerg's 3rd until he gets lair tech out. You'll notice my macro slipping after the 7 min mark (cut probes, no more pylons/gateways, etc), I was just considering whether I should continue or stop there. Doesn't really matter after that point imo, so I decided to leave the game to keep the replay shorter.
I don't think your build is viable at all, your cutting too many corners and the Zerg knows exactly what you are doing. If the Zerg happens to make 6lings, the timings of your entire build are thrown for a loop because you can't stop that probe from getting killed till you have a stalker or second sentry
On top of that, you have no way of knowing if the Zerg is going Roach/Ling, if you do a build like yours and the Zerg just rushes a lair and pushes, you die. Just because you have two cannons at your natural doesn't mean your safe (Roach/Ling build has like 8 roaches, he can just snipe them in two volleys)
To put it in perspective, even the build MC did against July Zerg is not as risky as yours--it says something when that is the case.
Your delaying tactic is hanging on a Razors edge, every sentry you make after your first two sentries delays your DT's by 30seconds.
Regarding 3gate Sentry expo: Of course Zerg can see your sentries, but that is part of going 3gate expand, they don't notice it before it is a bit too late, the one I posted, even DarkForce himself gave a thumbs up. A build like yours doesn't seem viable at all, IMO, it seems terrible, fast DT's with a fast expo? You just can't do that, Zerg can read it like a book.
I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
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I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
and what is the problem with playing a build MC seesm to think is viable?
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edit: nvm, my math sucks 
I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand.
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On April 30 2011 00:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +
I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
and what is the problem with playing a build MC seesm to think is viable?
First of all, I'm not advocating MC's build, i'm just saying the build he chose to do was also a bit risky but he didn't cut as many corners as truthless (got Stalker to deny drone bfore making twilight + pylon blocked entrance) AND in his interview MC said he had the entire thing planned out, even to the point if July had spore crawlers. It is safe to say that MC is also MC.
Hmm, well I know that he hasn't started his lair at 3:40 or so, as my probe can stick around that long. So that means the earliest possible overseer is 3:40 + 80 + 17 = 6:17. That probably means skipping ling speed completely though, or getting an early second gas. Not sure how it works out with roaches either. I'd have to try it.
I guess I could try to hide a probe and sac it to find out if he's started his lair after lings come up as well, but that's risky, so lets ignore that possibility. But lets assume I can send a probe out around 5:00 and find out if he has ling speed at that point; that should reveal if he went lair first or not. If he doesn't have ling speed I can simply cancel my dark shrine and go into standard 3gate blink stalker opening.
Bit complicated though, I guess. I don't know how long it would take to get lair started if you went speed first either, so that might not even work
I'm not going to theory craft a new DT build here, should just make another thread about it. But as far as I am concerned, I am not convinced that out of any of the current popular DT builds that any of them counter this build. I've yet to see anyone actually provide something that says otherwise
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On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote:
Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff
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It's definitely possible to stop it and it's not that hard if the natural on the map is not too big. It may be hard to stop on metalopolis or slag pits but maps like shattered/Tal'darim are defensor favoured which makes protoss stronger against this type of play. I am not talking about maps like Shakuras where such play ends in a complete disaster.
You need good forcefields, stalkers included in your army and zealots warped at proper times which in my opinion is not that hard to do.
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On April 30 2011 00:28 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote:
Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this. How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff
As great as Artosis is of a player and how knowledgeable he is, I don't think he quite knows all the timings of these types of builds. When he did the DT expand as he was saying it, he dropped his Dark Shrine at 7mins~, he had DT's out at like 8-9-mins, at that point it is too late.
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That was after his forge first expo though, wasn't it?
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On April 30 2011 00:40 truthless wrote:
That was after his forge first expo though, wasn't it?
No, his 2gate sentry expo with delayed Dark Shrine
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Ah, I must've missed that game.
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On April 30 2011 00:33 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 00:28 Nyast wrote:On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote:
Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this. How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff As great as Artosis is of a player and how knowledgeable he is, I don't think he quite knows all the timings of these types of builds. When he did the DT expand as he was saying it, he dropped his Dark Shrine at 7mins~, he had DT's out at like 8-9-mins, at that point it is too late.
I'm sorry but this should end. I know you're eager to prove you are right, but it is useless to talk about it anymore. In the link you have done, you get 3 dts out around 7:10 - 7:30, the question is, can you defend with those 3 dts + the units you had against the losira early 8 roach & ling push.
Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You argue that no, you cannot take losira's push.
What's the point in theorycrafting anymore ? Just play the game, see it by yourself, but don't forget to take the straight way from your base to the base of your opponent with your dt in order to catch the ling / roach force and focus the roach while making the ling useless with good force fields and sim city.
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Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~
Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel the Zergs third (this I can see, but stopping the push is the more important part).
Also note that DT's put a 45second cooldown on warpgates
I wait with bated breath for this answer.
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On April 30 2011 00:50 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won. You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~ Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel all of the Zergs spore crawlers and third. I wait with bated breath for this answer.
It is not theorycraft man it's starcraft. It's NOT 8 roach + lings vs 3dts, 2 canons, 1 zealot and 2 sentries.
It's 2 sentries with roughly 6 FF, a good simcity, and 3 dts running wild, don't tell me all the lings are hitting, don't tell me all the roach are hitting. Most of the zerg force is useless with good FF.
45seconds of gateway, yes, which is 22.5 sec with chronoboost....
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On April 30 2011 00:21 truthless wrote:edit: nvm, my math sucks I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand.
no you cant because THIS is the point of the push:
you dont get a lair, you only get 1gas and use this gas for speed+an exactly calculated number of roaches. (you dont spam them, you use them as power units to attack your opponent with range while you spam mostly speedlings)
If you go for a lair you lose almost half of your roaches(4 of 8-10), so you would need a second gas pretty early for this push, which means less minerals, which means less roaches and lings or a delayed push AND your not able to expand while you push.
mining a second gas kills either the push or the follow up
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I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
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On April 30 2011 00:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 00:21 truthless wrote:edit: nvm, my math sucks I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand. no you cant because THIS is the point of the push: you dont get a lair, you only get 1gas and use this gas for speed+an exactly calculated number of roaches. (you dont spam them, you use them as power units to attack your opponent with range while you spam mostly speedlings) If you go for a lair you lose almost half of your roaches(4 of 8-10), so you would need a second gas pretty early for this push, which means less minerals, which means less roaches and lings or a delayed push AND your not able to expand while you push. mining a second gas kills either the push or the follow up
Yeah I know, but we were talking about a fast DT rush that would be blatantly obvious to the zerg, as well as taking your natural. This would allow the zerg to take his 2nd gas and get that lair + the roaches (less lings though). Protoss wouldn't be able to scout the fast lair until it's too late so he'd stay with the DTs and end up with very low amount of units, 2 cannons and 2-3 DTs vs a bunch of roaches/lings (less than the losira push has though) with an overseer.
But I would be curious at how much units you'd have to give up to get that lair+overseer. I might have to play around a bit with that. The 2 cannons + sentry/zealot might just be enough to hold.
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On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote:
I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches.
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On April 30 2011 00:54 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 00:50 Dommk wrote:Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won. You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~ Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel all of the Zergs spore crawlers and third. I wait with bated breath for this answer. It is not theorycraft man it's starcraft. It's NOT 8 roach + lings vs 3dts, 2 canons, 1 zealot and 2 sentries. It's 2 sentries with roughly 6 FF, a good simcity, and 3 dts running wild, don't tell me all the lings are hitting, don't tell me all the roach are hitting. Most of the zerg force is useless with good FF. 45seconds of gateway, yes, which is 22.5 sec with chronoboost....
I just tested this, just then.
@ 7:30~
-Looking at my sentries I have 4 Forcefields, with a 5th coming up in roughly 3seconds and another in about 8seconds.
-My Cannons aren't even half way done. This is mind you, going 2 blind cannons the moment I have money right after warping in DT's.
-I also have around 27 Probes
-29 Chrono energy
-I am also playing blind up until this point, there is no way of knowing the Zerg has gone Roach/Ling, if I warped in DT's via Proxy pylon further up, I may have missed the attack
If my DT's are brought back to defend,I lose all my sentries/cancel nexus whilst the Zerg drops his spores. If I send my DT's, it turns into a base race,
EDIT:
Also, chronoboost doesn't reduce the duration by half -__-, Warpgate cooldown is somewhere around 30~seconds if chronoboosted constantly
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On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good.
In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys.
A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
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On April 30 2011 01:08 truthless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote:
I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build? The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches.
Thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on what tech route I should choose after this? I guess just standard robo play after this.
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EPT
