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Iraq1230 Posts
very interesting, but this opening is not new. its a common allin/anti allin build in zvp. losira is just so good, and alicia seemed very nervous.
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On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well:
- he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map...
- his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money.
- after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot.
Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
qft
was a pretty standard roach ling push, only new thing (for me) was the 1 drone on gas and thus late speed
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Lol, and Zerg's will actually complain about 4 gate being hard to hold.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 29 2011 20:39 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:On April 29 2011 07:41 dementrio wrote:On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling) You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame. your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math On April 29 2011 07:50 Samhax wrote:On April 29 2011 07:31 Alejandrisha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote:
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand.
zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive.
do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling) I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far. Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly). To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural. I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand. Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech. the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there... or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors Honestly i think your being pretty stubborn about this and may have a twisted view on the ZVP matchup similair to Idra. Youve become so frusterated with it that you refuse to beleive anything could work against such a safe build especially when youve spent alot of time figuring it out yourself only to get more frusterated. Zergs frusteration over the past few months in the ZVP matchup is understandable but dont let it cloud your judgement on new and interesting builds. Also 2 gate DT defenetly doesnt kill this build 100% ive seen people try it and you can totally get your evo chamber up in time (artosis tried it on his stream today). I think you are a great player  but dont let your frusterations cloud your judgement this build is viable and i think its far less risky then droning up like a mad man and hoping P doesnt apply pressure. Thats just my 2 cents obviously i am not where near your skill level but that doesnt mean that i cant look at this objectively and see that its a viable build that shouldnt just be dismissed as risky
I'm sorry but you don't understand a thing about what Morrow is saying. You should listen to his argument and argue with him, not trying to negate everything he says because he is zerg. On the other side, you have no clue about zerg's point of view in this match up.
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs because, obviously, he will not have any overseer in time AND the protoss will gain total map control with his DT for a certain time. Until then, the protoss is free to abuse, not to mention he have an economical advantage because the build is semi all in and stop drone prod.
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On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
I'm just not a huge fan of going straight for DTs after going forge first. They arrive too late 
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On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice (by mapcontrol I mean the ability to deny Thirds and grab towers--you can't exactly stop the Tsunami of lings from doing whatever they want), but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>?
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On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third Show nested quote +
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>?
Put the DT in front of zerg base (or even inside the base if there is no spore), contain, kill units as soon as they comes out or the base ? Who said you had to wait with your 3 dt before you nexus. The roach prod start around 6:30 with the build losira did.
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On April 29 2011 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>? Put the DT in front of zerg base (or even inside the base if there is no spore), contain, kill units as soon as they comes out or the base ? Who said you had to wait with your 3 dt before you nexus. The roach prod start around 6:30 with the build losira did.
There is no way you can get DT's out before 6:30, I think the best timing is somewhere around 6:40~ IF you can drop the Cyber/Twilight/DT in succession without missing a beat on a 9-10 gate, but that is SUPER easy to spot, first by the insanely early gas and second by the fact that Toss has 1-2 units as he is expanding---IIRC, I don't even think you have the money to expand at that point either
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On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
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I find it amazing the amount of people calling alicia bad in here, over the last couple of months i think he has proved to be the #2 protoss in the world. Even with that being the case i said before the match i expected losira to beat him, just because losira is that good. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
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On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
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On April 29 2011 06:26 Xapti wrote:
Anyway, with regards to PvZ and these games, I think that protoss should be getting hallucination before warp gate if they aren't planning to attack, and should only get warp gate for feinted attacks, careful pressure, or 4WG style attack. This is especially the case now, assuming that the 1.33 patch changes will stick, making warp gates considerably less-better to gateways in comparison, in addition to the longer time to get them.
With an early hallucinated scout you can spot what they are up to and react accordingly.
Hallucination costs energy. If you research hallu before warp, how many sentries do you think the Protoss will have ? And assuming there's a sentry with enough energy for a hallu, do you think it's wise to spend it into a hallu when a rush may be knocking around your door and require a critical force-field ?
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On April 29 2011 21:28 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive. But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on. How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
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On April 29 2011 21:47 truthless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:28 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive. But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on. How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod? The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's
If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you.
If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings
If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build.
IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
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Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
other things:
-) if you build the canon a little earlier and better protected than Alicia did you hold it easier (he actually didnt die to the rush, and wasnt that far behind...)
-) If you have seen HuK vs JulyZerg on Crossfire, HuK did a 3gate expand, but then chronoboosted all of his warpgates to get extra stalkers and rush JulyZerg. If Alicia would have tried to go for this kind of pressure right after the expo, he would have been in great shape against the rush, so this is another build how to play against this rush (maybe the reason HuK did this: you're safe against this recently extremly popular rush, and if Zerg doesnt go for it, you can attack yourself)
-) we have seen 2games at this high level of play currently, all we know is that this build can beat a 3gate expand and a fast void ray expand, it's not like those were the only available Protoss openings for a macro game and well to be fair:
1base Protoss play can also beat any kind of Zerg expand, it's not like there should be builds that garantee you to get an expansion without taking any risks as any race
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On April 29 2011 21:57 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:47 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:28 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive. But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on. How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod? The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map. I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you. If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build. IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170439-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Something like that. I screwed up a bit, but I think you can see that the timings work out to prevent the rush. It'll be blatantly obvious that you're going DT's, but that's sort of the thing with DT expand builds; force the zerg to get Lair before he can get a third. They're not so focused about dealing damage with the DTs as they are on getting map control and denying hatch-tiered aggression.
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On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out.
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On April 29 2011 20:54 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
very interesting, but this opening is not new. its a common allin/anti allin build in zvp. losira is just so good, and alicia seemed very nervous.
I know that the roach/ling early pressure/allin isn't new. I was just a bit captivated by how nicely Losira's timings lined up with the Protoss timings. I've never seen that level of minute planning from a zerg in the early game before. The roach warren completed exactly in time for him to decide on whether to go through with his attack or not, the ling speed was delayed to give him a faster 2nd hatch and queen, and yet he has ling speed out at the 5 minute mark which is perfectly timed in case he has to make mass speedlings to respond to an early pressure build. It just all felt very solidly timed out to match with the Protoss timings to me.
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On April 29 2011 22:42 truthless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:57 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:47 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:28 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive. But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on. How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod? The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map. I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you. If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build. IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/170439-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsSomething like that. I screwed up a bit, but I think you can see that the timings work out to prevent the rush. It'll be blatantly obvious that you're going DT's, but that's sort of the thing with DT expand builds; force the zerg to get Lair before he can get a third. They're not so focused about dealing damage with the DTs as they are on getting map control and denying hatch-tiered aggression.
I don't see how that counters this at all. That is just rushing DT"s and expanding, he can spot your DT's from a mile away...long before he ever has to commit to anything, at worst he just has an earlier roach warren.
Your build also has 1 Zealot when you drop your forge/gateway/Nexus on top of dropping the twilight whilst the drone is still in your base and you only have 26 probes 8mins on top of only being able to afford 1 DT at 6:40~, it takes you an entire minute to get the money for all three DT's after warping in your first one-- something like this just isn't reasonable, how do you even expand if the Zerg has 6+ lings?
The fake 3gate expos/DT expand is what most people do, it is harder to spot, but it still dies. Again, this build counters any form of DT, the super early rushes you can see before you even hit whilst the delayed DT builds will die to the shear number of units.
People really need to stop saying DT expands counter this, because it doesn't. It only counters it if the Zerg is on auto-drive and just executes the build order blindly--which if the Toss is doing fake 3gate expo/DT he will win anyway -__-
EDIT: Side-note: Read this guide if you want some idea of how to do a DT expand properly: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108
Even DarkForce commented and said it was solid, the Twilight council cannot go down at 4mins, unless you proxy your second pylon, to which darkforce even said, on maps like Xel'Naga it will get found by 2 scouting lings, and it sets Zerg off when there is no second pylon in base. You have to deny the scouting delaying the council till around 4:20-40, if you go sentry first and he evades you, he can even delay until 5mins~. But again, Roach/Ling will crush it by shear overwhelming force
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You can't really fake a 3gate sentry expo vs zerg since they have map control and will see your lack of sentries. Of course, you can fake that you're going DTs by hiding sentries, but the other way around doesn't really work, unless the zerg is daft
My only point was that it would stop the 8roach/mass ling push at 7:30. It forces the zerg to go up to lair if he wants a third. He can ofc make mass lings to harass the nexus, but that's a fair trade imho (you can still cancel the nexus at that point), and shortly thereafter cannons will be up and you can restart the nexus.
Zerg can ofc go mass roach and go all-in by cutting drones around in the low 20s; that should hit around 6:00-6:30, so he'll be able to kill the forge and gateway (and possibly the cannon) on the low ground, but the nexus will be cancelled. Protoss would switch over to sentries at the top of the ramp and drop 2-4 more gates in his base after that and just delay the roaches long enough (~30 sec) for his DT's to come out and hold the choke. Safe nexus after that, and you're ahead on probes, and can deny the zerg's 3rd until he gets lair tech out.
You'll notice my macro slipping after the 7 min mark (cut probes, no more pylons/gateways, etc), I was just considering whether I should continue or stop there. Doesn't really matter after that point imo, so I decided to leave the game to keep the replay shorter.
edit: Should add that I prefer to 3gate sentry expo vs zerg pool firsts, just saying that it's possible to hold a DT expo purely defensively.
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EPT
