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Chrono boost increases the building/research speed by 50%, or, in other words, reduces the build/research time by 33% (think of it like a car moving at 100% speed increasing it's speed to 150%, that is, 100/150 = 67% as long to go from point A to point B).
So the DT cooldown is 30 seconds with chrono 
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On April 30 2011 01:20 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 01:08 truthless wrote:On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote:
I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build? The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches. Thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on what tech route I should choose after this? I guess just standard robo play after this.
I would get hallucination and find out what he's doing asap, but yeah, standard robo play is a solid followup. You could possibly, if you scout him droning hard, simply add on gateways and hit him hard with gateway units to punish him. It depends on how the engagement goes.
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Easier to remember imo is each chrono removes 10 seconds.
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On April 30 2011 01:23 MrCon wrote:
Easier to remember imo is each chrono removes 10 seconds.
Very true, since the duration is 20 seconds. Never thought of it like that
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Having a few goes, it just depends when the Zerg chooses to attack. If they start production after DT's have hit, then it is too late--turns into a base race, most Favors Protoss--i.e Super fast DT's
But the old cliche of "the best defense is a good offense" kinda plays here. If they hit just as, just before or slightly after DT's are out, then it always favors them, they have a big enough force to cancel the Protoss Nexus and do serious damage to the main if Protoss do not withdraw the DT's and use them to defend, giving Zerg enough time to stabilize with spore crawlers and be ahead due to stopping the natural from going up. At least in my eyes, this build is safe against DT's
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It's like Artosis said after the match. DTs will roll this timing push stratwhen used defensively. The zerg is on hatch tech, after all.
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ok to get some things right because I just wanted to know some exact timings of the 1st Losira vs Alicia game and rewatched it:
-) Losira was at Alicias base at 8:30 gametime (not 7:30) even assuming that Alicia's little move out delayed the push by 30sec (which it didnt) you have plenty of time to get fast dts without needing them superfast, I guess even something like 2gate void ray expand seems viable against this rush, if you just delay your expo a little bit and have your void ray(s) actually in place to defend your expo (unlike in game 2, when Alicia did 1gate, canon expand while his first void ray wasn't done, and was out of position when the attack occured)
-) when Losira had lost his last roach and the rush was over (@9:40), the harvester count was 33 for Losira to 32 for Alicia.
here comes the biggy, noone has seen yet:
-)while Losira was hard droning from 9:40-13:00 (when Losira hit 77drones) Alicia was ONLY PRODUCING PROBES OUT OF 1 NEXUS ALL THE TIME! (I checked and rechecked it, but as the production tab is open like all the time in the VOD it is really true) He had spare money all the time, so he could have easily produced out of both nexi (and those 13probes would have paid for themselves while they are produced), but I guess he had them(nexi) on hotkey and didnt realize he had only 1 selected. Alicia had 45probes at 13:00, coming from his 32 at 9:40 this means he hat 13probes less than he should have at this time!
that just ruins the complete game for him, because with only 45probes taking his 3rd so early doesnt make sense.
After seeing this I have to say: the rush secured Losira his third, and maybe gave him a little timing window to get ahead in harvesters, but the reason why Alicia never seemed to get on even footing was Alicia not producing the probes... (the first time he build 2probes at once was ~13:20, shortly before his third was done)
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I think i would subscribe to the idea that alicia just got nervous and handled everything poorly, the build losira did is more than holdable by a standard 3gate expand.
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On April 30 2011 01:35 dUTtrOACh wrote:
It's like Artosis said after the match. DTs will roll this timing push stratwhen used defensively. The zerg is on hatch tech, after all.
Ive been trying it out again and again for the last 15-20mins and I kinda get that feeling.
If you have the DT's at your natural waiting for them as well as your sentries in a nice position + quick cannons, you can hold it off...it gets tense when it is just speedlings left and all you have is 4 DT's and a Zealot guarding access to your main with no Cannons/Sentries, but if the DT's are half way across the map then it is over, Roaches waddle in and kill the cannons + poultry force left to defend, not exactly sure what to do at that point---the annoying part for me is that fact you have to drop cannons the moment you warp in your last DT with only two sentries and a Zealot, which is a dead give away that DT's are on their way to the Zergs base.
DT's can't exactly be used as a reactionary thing against this build, I'm sure there will be an ebb and flow involved with DT timings. But as a hard counter, I'm not convinced.
Losira was at Alicias base at 8:30 gametime (not 7:30)
That was cross position Terminus though :/
People here already got the fact that Alicia didn't play as well as he should have, a well played 3gate expand that doesn't cut corners should be fine as long as the map isn't something like Typhon, might have to get creative there. 2Gate Voidray opening will work as well. DTs, kinda up in the air for me. The more and more I try the DT opening, the more and more I feel like it can be done, it is just how you respond--I'll have to get use to using them defensively
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On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind.
With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo).
The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
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On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Well, on the other hand it isn't an allin from the start... up to around 6:30 you're playing pretty standard. That means that if you see Protoss getting greedy you can whip this out, but if not you can continue along your solid route. Or at least, that's what it seems like, I think it's too early to issue ultimatums on anything in SC2 ^^.
Question @people who would know, when do Protosses generally get their Forge & 4th Gate after a 3Gate Expand (in the current, greedy-ish metagame) and when do you think they would need to in order to be safe?
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On April 30 2011 03:17 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Well, on the other hand it isn't an allin from the start... up to around 6:30 you're playing pretty standard. That means that if you see Protoss getting greedy you can whip this out, but if not you can continue along your solid route. Or at least, that's what it seems like, I think it's too early to issue ultimatums on anything in SC2 ^^. Question @people who would know, when do Protosses generally get their Forge & 4th Gate after a 3Gate Expand (in the current, greedy-ish metagame) and when do you think they would need to in order to be safe?
Exactly. You are not committing until 6:30, and you can make that choice informatively, not blindly. That makes it a very good standard opening, giving you the option to punish a protoss that cuts corners.
I believe you drop the forge as soon as you can afford it after the second warp-in (you need 2 pylons too). Cannon after the next warp-in. Consecutive gates as you build up minerals. Depending a bit on where you spent your chrono's, the first warp-in happens between 5:45 - 6:15 or so, 2nd warp-in 30 seconds later. If you're being greedy you'd squeeze something like a robo or stargate in there instead of one round of warp-ins.
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On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of
1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that.
2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
Anyway, I came here to post this
http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/04/28/ipl-winners-round-3-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3?show=HD
+ Show Spoiler +idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
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On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
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I recently wrote up a guide for this build here. Would all the people who have been doing testing for this build be up for contributing a few replays?
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I just want to chime in and say about the dt part:
You can still use your usual scouting techniques to prepare for that. You can survive with spores no problem, and be in a fine position especially since if you cut sentries to get fast tech protoss will NOT be able to hold his expansion. DTs are really not a problem unless you weren't expecting them at all, in which case they would be game ending for the vast majority of "standard" builds regardless.
I used a similar build extensively on ladder and what gives it trouble is solid, defensive play, and it's mostly an auto-win against anything cute.
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On April 30 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is. Anyway, I came here to post this http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/04/28/ipl-winners-round-3-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3?show=HD+ Show Spoiler +idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically.
There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason)
The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build.
On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
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On April 29 2011 21:57 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 21:47 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:28 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:21 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 21:09 Dommk wrote:On April 29 2011 21:05 truthless wrote:On April 29 2011 20:47 Executor1 wrote:On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote:
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands. I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p 2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning). Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make. People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection  By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive. But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on. How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod? The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map. I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you. If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build. IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
The DT conversation is really pretty silly. The idea that an attack like this forces you to go DTs would be a terrible notion. The idea of sacrificing around 700 gas in tech units that he can protect his base from for 150 minerals and 2 larva (evo chamber + spore crawler) in the first 7 minutes of the game would be very unfortunate.
Those of you suggesting this is an all-in, is the OP wrong in stating that Losira was still ahead of a 3-gate expand in drones?
At the very least, if the goal of this is to determine if protoss can do anything against this push with a 3-gate sentry expand, we probably should examine more than 2 games. If this is as powerful as the OP implies, other zergs will be doing this. And when they do, we'll find out through a much larger number of games if 3-gate sentry expand is at a disadvantage to this push or not.
Or the current patch notes could go through and then everything would be different.
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On April 29 2011 02:04 Ansinjunger wrote:
Since when is 3 gate expand greedy?
When you make 8 sentries and 2 zealots.
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On April 30 2011 04:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is. Anyway, I came here to post this http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/04/28/ipl-winners-round-3-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3?show=HD+ Show Spoiler +idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically. There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason) The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build. Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works)
I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment.
It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you.
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