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On April 30 2011 13:03 mytent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 12:49 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote:
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner. Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying. lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice. and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA. this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent.
what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players.
also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT)
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On April 30 2011 11:10 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote:
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything. Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings. Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky. Fast DT's... blind.
On the other hand, Protoss can deny Zerg scouting until Lair essentially if stalkers patrol correctly. So the zerg doesn't know whether there's a 4 gate all-in coming or a 3-gate economic opening or a fast blink stalker build. The blindness is 2-ways, I believe, and this is not good for starcraft. You shouldn't be able to scout easily, but I think that scouting should be a little bit better in the early game and I think you will find a lot of pros agreeing with this.
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On April 30 2011 13:21 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 11:10 iChau wrote:On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote:
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything. Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings. Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky. Fast DT's... blind. On the other hand, Protoss can deny Zerg scouting until Lair essentially if stalkers patrol correctly. So the zerg doesn't know whether there's a 4 gate all-in coming or a 3-gate economic opening or a fast blink stalker build. The blindness is 2-ways, I believe, and this is not good for starcraft. You shouldn't be able to scout easily, but I think that scouting should be a little bit better in the early game and I think you will find a lot of pros agreeing with this.
However, lings are very mobile and collect info about what the Protoss is allining or not. Zerg can scout if he has his Nexus up or not and check their army composition.
There is a certain degree of uncertainty in Zerg's scouting that is definitely unreliable but their scouting is definitely better until Protoss gets halliculation. By that time though, it is too late as Zerg's allin will hit already.
Hm.. I'm actually quite interested how Protoss players will adapt. I wonder if we'll ever see 4gate pressure into expand as standard because of this new build.
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Well, I suppose some sort of 2gate pressure might be the way to go, especially after 1.3.3. Couple of stalkers will allow the protoss to retain map control until speed comes out, and force the Z to make a spinecrawler and/or more lings, and not cut corners with the gas unless he's comfortable with the toss having map control until 5:00 or so.
Though I worry a bit at the delay of the sentries, as their energy is crucial to the midgame and is the big reason you do a 3gate sentry expand in the first place. While holding it with a 3gate sentry expand works, you need to be very defensive and this allows the zerg to cut a lot of corners in the early game.
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On April 30 2011 05:08 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 04:37 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is. Anyway, I came here to post this http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/04/28/ipl-winners-round-3-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3?show=HD+ Show Spoiler +idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically. There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason) The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build. On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling. 3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works) I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment. It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you.
I've never said that the protoss were not cutting corners. Of course they are, teching expand, since a long time, because zerg were unable to play agressive.
What I'm saying is that it is not this build that can become "standard" against protoss, it is the whole idea of being agressiv. Most of the top zerg are playing early agression in ZvP now, be it this kind of timing push, or just multi prong attacks with roach, hydra drops or ling bling into infestorz.
If there were more zerg that would just copy this build this would not work at all: protoss would just adapt to the timing push and continue to cut corner around it. That's why it's such a feast of style in ZvP right now, every body is doing their own style of agression.
Also, since when does protoss have hallu at 8:30 only? Warp gate finish around 6 no ? If you research hallu just after warp gate, when will you get it ?
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On April 30 2011 16:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 05:08 MrCon wrote:On April 30 2011 04:37 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 03:38 MrCon wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is. Anyway, I came here to post this http://uk.ign.com/videos/2011/04/28/ipl-winners-round-3-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3?show=HD+ Show Spoiler +idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically. There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason) The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build. On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote:
the whole point of the build is
-to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy
-make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon)
-stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds
-punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense)
weakness
-dies to dt
-falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage
-u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation. The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run. If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build. You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push. You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play. The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny. Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling. 3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works) I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment. It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you. I've never said that the protoss were not cutting corners. Of course they are, teching expand, since a long time, because zerg were unable to play agressive. What I'm saying is that it is not this build that can become "standard" against protoss, it is the whole idea of being agressiv. Most of the top zerg are playing early agression in ZvP now, be it this kind of timing push, or just multi prong attacks with roach, hydra drops or ling bling into infestorz. If there were more zerg that would just copy this build this would not work at all: protoss would just adapt to the timing push and continue to cut corner around it. That's why it's such a feast of style in ZvP right now, every body is doing their own style of agression. Also, since when does protoss have hallu at 8:30 only? Warp gate finish around 6 no ? If you research hallu just after warp gate, when will you get it ?
I never meant to imply that this build in itself would be the "future of PvZ", and I've said before that I would change the topic if I could. I was merely using this game as a staging point for discussing how the matchup is changing. I just thought it was a very good example, as Losira hits his timings just right imo, because he's so good.
If you research hallu right after WGT and don't chrono it, it'll finish 1 minute later. -10 sec per chrono. Do note that you can't get hallucination, keep up probe production, drop pylons, drop the nexus, and stay on top of all 3 gates warpins though. Something's gotta give. You can't actually afford the forge even before the 2nd warp-in or so. It's pretty tight right around there as you transfer the probes too, around the 3rd/4th warp-in. Add in travel time for the phoenix, and most hallucinated phoenix reach the enemy base ~7:30-8:00.
edit: 30 sec between each warpin btw, if you didn't know.
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Whine, whine, whine.
Protoss has actually been whining about roach/ling for a nice while, even before this build came by, because simply making a shitload of roaches and lings and attacking at the 6:30 minute mark almost guarantees a win vs any 3 Gate Expo user because the cannon will be too late.
yeah lol: 6:30 is neither the timing of this Roach/ling attack, nor of any other. The 1base allin pushes hit earlier, and this push starts from the Zerg base at 7:30... Get your numbers straight!
We get NO scout until the 8:30 minute mark because slings destroy everything, so that's why toss has hallucinations to save ourself from being blind.
-) Zerg scouting at that time isn't that good either, you can sacrifice an overlord, which most Pro Players dont do in a lot of games, because it usually gets intercepted, it's expensive and with the maps getting bigger you usually dont even have one in the right spot.
so you scout based on army composition which is extremly tricky (just saying: HuK vs JulyZerg! HuK showed his usual sentry/zealot composition whily chronoboosting a lot of stalkers out and not showing them to July)
-) if you walk out with your army, you will either see his composition and be able to retreat due to FFs, or Zerg has to stop droning which isnt bad either
-) develope a better opening, if you dont like 3gate sentry warp gate expand, because your hallucination will be late, do another opening to expand. btw the next patch might help here, because 2gate openings will be stronger, and gateways will be stronger, so you might be able to just skip warp gate and get hallu right away
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On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote:
so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
This is literally the only time in this thread that Losira's aggression is called by the appropriate name. This is a timing attack. I think that people are getting all excited over it because it's one of the first that Zerg have used. The surprising thing is simply that it took so long to arrive.
Losira gave himself a number of options and used his scouting to determine which would be the best route to take. It's assertive, but still reactive. The blame for it working so well can be laid right at Alicia's feet.
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This morrow quote makes me sad. He has the winrate he has in ZvP because every single protoss is cutting corners currently. They're so used to play in a no rush 10+ that all their builds are shifting toward absolute greed. And it works because nobody punishes them.
As a protoss or a terran, would you do nothing (like zergs) if you saw your zerg opponent double expand without unit ? No, you would just go kill them, because that's the obvious thing to do. Protosses are currently playing like a zerg who double expanded for months without never being punished for it. And zergs are thinking it's normal to not punish this, because they would have to do "a timing attack" ><
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On May 01 2011 01:26 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote:
so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly This is literally the only time in this thread that Losira's aggression is called by the appropriate name. This is a timing attack. I think that people are getting all excited over it because it's one of the first that Zerg have used. The surprising thing is simply that it took so long to arrive.
well it's neither so surprising nor one of the first.
Zerg has been created so reactive that Zerg builds have to wait for the other races builds to really develope on high level. Finally after Protoss seems to have found a style and is not just going random techs and timings like at the start of SC2 Zergs are able to create builds and attacks.
and I really think morrow is right about Protoss just cutting corners a lot these days, once they get into the midgame, but I dont think you can blame them. Zergs have been playing extremly passive because the MU was way less figuered out.
(most of the time when I play on the ladder vs a Protoss I scout and go like: he 3gate expanded but now he is rushing colossus and has a forge that is upgrading with only 1-2canons... he cant have enough units to defend!)
I guess that's one of the downsides of the 3gate expansion: you cannot follow it up with tech easily, as Forcefields dont kill units on their own. I really, really think that Protoss should start with another opening if they want to play something else than 3gate expansion into 6gate aggression, because if they start with sentries, they have to follow up with units, which blocks your tech, but puts you in a spot where you invested tons of ressources in an army, so you better do something with it.
and there are other timings as well, but most of them evolve around the lair tech, because it is safer to get a lair first, because else you lose to air or dt play pretty fast.
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consider this the zerg equivalent of a 4gate
a build designed to punish a fe; one that every toss should learn to identify and defend
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I didnt find any response but how does this go vs a FFE
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On May 01 2011 02:50 Sclol wrote:
I didnt find any response but how does this go vs a FFE
It'd be like trying to roach/ling bust any FFE tbh. It works if the protoss is greedy, but I would go with a baneling bust instead, personally.
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On April 30 2011 13:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 13:03 mytent wrote:On April 30 2011 12:49 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote:
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner. Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying. lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice. and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA. this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason. better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent. what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players. also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT)
i'm not whining, i'm stating why early agression (when protoss can't scout) is good, not OP, just something every zerg should be ready to do, you don't need to start the game planning the early attack, zerg can scout and almost instantly change their game plan to an agressive one, and the protoss players can't tell if the zerg is playing greed or agressive till hallu is ready, if losira scouted an safe defense, he could just build drones, if scouted low unit count, go for the kill, if scouted high unit count, play safe. that way he can always get into the mid game with an advantage. this is so simple and yet so good...
protoss have to be ready for everything, and you will always end behind playing this way.
a lot of zergs already know this, and the best way to exploit it, is by knowing what the protoss player can do with what they have now so they can react, some zergs should stop thinking they have to see the whole protoss base to know what is coming, in the early game, the protoss unit composition (zealot, stalker and sentry), is like an guide to what protoss want to do, some may say that scouting this way is very trick, but if the protoss is trying to play mind games with units he doesn't want to get, his build will hit later and be weaker.
the protoss race is the race that loses more when the oponent knows what you are trying to do.
I will go as far and say, if the zerg learn to read the protoss early game, ZvP will be (i think it already is) an even matchup or yet, zerg favoured.
EDIT: with the new patch, protoss can scout a little more if he opens 2 gate, but hallu is delayed by 40s
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2011 04:04 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 13:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 30 2011 13:03 mytent wrote:On April 30 2011 12:49 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote:
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner. Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying. lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice. and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA. this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason. better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent. what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players. also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT) i'm not whining, i'm stating why early agression (when protoss can't scout) is good, not OP, just something every zerg should be ready to do, you don't need to start the game planning the early attack, zerg can scout and almost instantly change their game plan to an agressive one, and the protoss players can't tell if the zerg is playing greed or agressive till hallu is ready, if losira scouted an safe defense, he could just build drones, if scouted low unit count, go for the kill, if scouted high unit count, play safe. that way he can always get into the mid game with an advantage. this is so simple and yet so good... protoss have to be ready for everything, and you will always end behind playing this way. a lot of zergs already know this, and the best way to exploit it, is by knowing what the protoss player can do with what they have now so they can react, some zergs should stop thinking they have to see the whole protoss base to know what is coming, in the early game, the protoss unit composition (zealot, stalker and sentry), is like an guide to what protoss want to do, some may say that scouting this way is very trick, but if the protoss is trying to play mind games with units he doesn't want to get, his build will hit later and be weaker. I will go as far and say, if the zerg learn to read the protoss early game, ZvP will be an even matchup (i think it already is) or yet, zerg favoured. the protoss race is the race that loses more when the oponent knows what you are trying to do. EDIT: with the new patch, protoss can scout a little more if he opens 2 gate, but hallu is delayed by 40s
I wasn't saying you were whining :S the other guy was. And I agree with everything you said, but I don't think we can say that it's zerg favoured for a long time, especially with the new patch on the horizon.
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A new example of this from Idra
This will spoil game 1, 2 and 3 of the bo5
+ Show Spoiler [IPL final spoiler] +http://www.ign.com/ipl/videos/2011/05/01/ipl-grand-finals-egidra-vs-rootkiwikaki-game-3
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220369
Q. Recently in ZvP, Zergs have been using a 2 base 8 Roach and mass Zerglings build vs 3 gate Sentry expand, what do you think about this strategy?
After Alicia's loss vs IMLosira (Alicia and Min are in the same team) we had a team meeting concerning this build order. We concluded that it's a great anti-3Gate expand build. However there are several Protoss build orders that counter this push like fast Voids or DTs because Zergs are spending the gas on the 8 Roaches, the Lair tech is delayed and stalkers prevents Zerg scouting. Also if Protoss goes stalkers to pressure the lings before speed is completed, it gives them map control. Although it has its own weaknesses, it is a good build but not an all-in. For example this build isn't meant to kill the Protoss outright, not even to destroy the nexus. Alicia's opinion is that he made the mistake of having his zealots+sentry too far away from his expansion.
In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are:
1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build
2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT
3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
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On May 08 2011 01:10 ehalf wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220369Q. Recently in ZvP, Zergs have been using a 2 base 8 Roach and mass Zerglings build vs 3 gate Sentry expand, what do you think about this strategy? After Alicia's loss vs IMLosira (Alicia and Min are in the same team) we had a team meeting concerning this build order. We concluded that it's a great anti-3Gate expand build. However there are several Protoss build orders that counter this push like fast Voids or DTs because Zergs are spending the gas on the 8 Roaches, the Lair tech is delayed and stalkers prevents Zerg scouting. Also if Protoss goes stalkers to pressure the lings before speed is completed, it gives them map control. Although it has its own weaknesses, it is a good build but not an all-in. For example this build isn't meant to kill the Protoss outright, not even to destroy the nexus. Alicia's opinion is that he made the mistake of having his zealots+sentry too far away from his expansion. In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are: 1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build 2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT 3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Ah i was just about to post this too. I like how alot of pro's were calling this an all in (i think morrow and darkforce and trying to discredit it) i thik i will trust the slayers team over them though. It is as i thought it was a very strong build not meant to kill the protoss but meant to do damage and maybe destroy the natural. didnt realy feel all in to me i mean i guess it can turn into that if you think you have them you can just keep making units, but IMO it is a new zerg pressure build that zergs should be keeping in their arsenal. It also hits at a perfect time that stops the pressure or ghosting fromm the protoss player, if hes already heading out when it hits he will probably lose all his units.
I think you can drone behind this pressure really effectively and it will usually do enough damage that you wont see a counter attack or pressure for a while leaving you safe to drone and possibly grab a third i really like this build.
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Yeah if the only builds that hard counter it are all-inish. It means that the build is really strong. Fast dts/void are bad builds because you die to a standard roach/hydra in the mid game.
We will see in the future what protosses are going to do against it, i'm really curious. I think a quick follow up with 5 gate can hold it but if the zerg can pick up most of the sentries with the agression, i think you are pretty good as a zerg because it delay everything for the protoss in the mid game.
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On May 08 2011 01:10 ehalf wrote:
In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are:
1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build
2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT
3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Didnt Alicia go for a fast Void Ray in one of the two games? It only makes the allin stronger, Void Rays can't stop the lings from wrecking the whole base in time and it means there's less gateway units.
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EPT
