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So let me get this straight:
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game.
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It should be noted that while Alicia made some important mistakes in the game on Metalopolis, so did Losira. He actually made a bunch of macro errors, including a few supply blocks. His first queen was delayed and actually required him to do an extractor trick on the natural to get it out. The execution was much smoother in the first game.
There have been a multitude of roach/ling openings to date, but this one seems optimized to exploit a timing window against 3 gate expand. It's nice for zerg to be the one with an effective timing attack in ZvP for once. 
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i personally don't understand the thinking behind a DT response. I mean, no one is going to want to open DTs every game, and i don't know when or how u would go about getting the intel to react fast enough with DTs.
If DTs were super standard in the early stages of ZvP, i could understand why this build would be so risky, as it is, i completely agree with truthless that its really up to the zerg to scout out his opponent and see if he should start droning or make roaches and push. I would also not consider this all in since it seems obvious whether you can do damage or if u can drone up.
if someone could address that with something logical, i think that would clear up any of my confusion, but those are basically the reasons i think this build looks so strong
Edit: one more thing i should add is that it seems unfair to call 3gate expo greedy, zerg can be droning super hard for all u kno and obviously has expo (u should scout that) and u can't exactly scout as long as theirs a few zerglings on the map. always kind of subscribed to the idea that u have to have a strong timing against a zerg, or hallu (which takes awhile) if u don't want to play blind.
if u wait any longer to get expo it seems like u should have a push coming or you'll fall behind
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One of the reasons this build is timed so well is the delay on zergling speed, so if you're worried about holding it you can get on the map with early stalkers to do some damage (obv will delay your expo), or delay your expo longer to be safe. Never think as though you can do nothing while your opponent holds the cards. Losira took risks to get his build to attack so early, don't ignore those facts when assessing how strong the build is.
I'm inclined to just say that a standard 3gate sentry expand is safe and as long as you're not greedy (build cannons when you expand, not once you see an attack coming) you can be even. But even if this build killed 3gate sentry expands, you can pick weaknesses in the build (slow zerglings and heavy droning for a long time) and exploit them. Sending out an early stalker is zero risk versus slow lings and can force your opponent off a timing attack even if you don't really want to make a stalker before expanding.
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On April 30 2011 06:39 galivet wrote:
So let me get this straight:
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game.
??? Alicia held the attack in g1 AND had hallucination!
AND YES, SC2 is not supposed to be a game that is "safe" for any race...
Just because you Protoss players dream of a world were you get a bunch of sentries that get stronger as the game goes, on an expansion and 3gateways without having to worry about anything doesnt mean that this should be the case in the game.
Zergs have to worry about so much stuff after expanding, but hey Protoss dont want to worry, Protoss should get a completly safe 2nd. And once the game develops furhter you think there should be a build how to end up on even footing with a third base no matter what zerg does?
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it annoys me that morrow etc is saying the forge in the base is a mistake, if you go back to his " cutting" corners i think the forge in base is VERY clever.
to get a forge outside you need a pylon, followed by the forge, followed by the cannon..
if you start the forge, go down and throw the pylon down you can actually get the cannon up slightly quicker as you are saving on the pylon build time which actually would " Aid" the build depending how tight the natural is,
i do not think it was a mistake and he could of thrown a building as a blocker down sr8 after the pylon and actually had a faster cannon
I am thinking about 2 gate forge in base to deal with this as i am about 5-25 in the last week in pvz :\ now that zergs actually make units before the 70 drone mark they are almost impossible to deal with.
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so a roach/ling 2 base pressure build is a new build?
didnt know that, every 2nd gm zerg in europe plays that @ open expos in europe.
And it is defendable if you drop 2 cannons instead of 1, boost your hallu 2-3 times and spam tons of units BEFORE you can actually know he does it.
if he goes massdrones instead (you see it with a hallu then), simply go push and probe up meanwhile.
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If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
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fast DTs do NOT stop this build.
even if you kill 1 hatch with dts, he will block the ramp, build a spore in his main and meanwhile destroy your whole army/expo - he will be ahead if he does it ok.
same goes for voidray build - he has no antiair - but before voids kill a group of lings the lings destroyed the whole base pretty much.
+ you cannot blindly go for DT builds since it sux vs most other builds.
you cannot drop 4 cannons either, you are lost vs greedy builds.
you simply have to get out more units than usually - blindly - and push the zerg if he doesnt execute this build finally.
its still a strong build and hard to deal with in almost any case.
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On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote:
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Lol yeah let's blindly make cannons so that the Zerg can drone/tech/macro up ven further with zero risk.
That's not a counter to a strat, playing blind. Oh wanna know how to beat fast dts? Build fast detection blind!
-_-
either way the Zerg gets ahead from this build by forcing delayed tech, delayed macro and doing ven the smallest damage.
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On April 30 2011 09:14 mytent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote:
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything. Lol yeah let's blindly make cannons so that the Zerg can drone/tech/macro up ven further with zero risk. That's not a counter to a strat, playing blind. Oh wanna know how to beat fast dts? Build fast detection blind! -_- either way the Zerg gets ahead from this build by forcing delayed tech, delayed macro and doing ven the smallest damage.
right now protosses generally have an advantage going into the midgame, so if "behind" means "not ahead" then sure you'll be behind.
this isn't chess, you don't get 100% information. ever. there are going to be times when you have 0 information, and all you can do is play safely or toss coins and pray. the same thing goes for every race in every matchup. sure, safe builds generally put you at a disadvantage against semi-greedy builds, but it's generally a much, much smaller disadvantage than playing greedily blindly and getting punished for it or going allin against a safe player. making cannons and not getting attacked is much less of a disadvantage than not making cannons and losing your natural.
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right now protosses generally have an advantage going into the midgame, so if "behind" means "not ahead" then sure you'll be behind.
care to explain?
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On April 30 2011 10:21 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +right now protosses generally have an advantage going into the midgame, so if "behind" means "not ahead" then sure you'll be behind. care to explain?
just restating what some pro players have said :/ I'd imagine it's a combination of their tech being sooner than is safe and their expansion being sooner than is safe, because of cutting corners but that's just my speculation
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I would love to copy down Losiras ZvP build order since im having trouble here in silver. I believe that Losira is a very great player and should get to Code S in no time!
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On April 30 2011 08:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 06:39 galivet wrote:
So let me get this straight:
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game. ??? Alicia held the attack in g1 AND had hallucination! AND YES, SC2 is not supposed to be a game that is "safe" for any race... Just because you Protoss players dream of a world were you get a bunch of sentries that get stronger as the game goes, on an expansion and 3gateways without having to worry about anything doesnt mean that this should be the case in the game. Zergs have to worry about so much stuff after expanding, but hey Protoss dont want to worry, Protoss should get a completly safe 2nd. And once the game develops furhter you think there should be a build how to end up on even footing with a third base no matter what zerg does?
Whine, whine, whine.
Protoss has actually been whining about roach/ling for a nice while, even before this build came by, because simply making a shitload of roaches and lings and attacking at the 6:30 minute mark almost guarantees a win vs any 3 Gate Expo user because the cannon will be too late.
You obviously never played Protoss, so please don't say that we don't care about anything.
We get NO scout until the 8:30 minute mark because slings destroy everything, so that's why toss has hallucinations to save ourself from being blind.
Slings are much better scout until observers and hallucinations come in, by scouting based on army composition can get you a lot.
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On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote:
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings.
Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky.
Fast DT's... blind.
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you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
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On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote:
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
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On April 30 2011 12:49 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote:
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners...
if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run.
you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now...
you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner. Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice.
and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA.
this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
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EPT
