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On May 08 2011 06:00 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 01:10 ehalf wrote:
In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are:
1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build
2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT
3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong Didnt Alicia go for a fast Void Ray in one of the two games? It only makes the allin stronger, Void Rays can't stop the lings from wrecking the whole base in time and it means there's less gateway units.
No fast voidray in my opinion mean from one base (1gate-core-stargate). Alicia went stargate after the 3gates/sentry/expand. So ok you shut down any agression and maybe gain mapcontrol, but when a zerg see that he feels very safe to drone like crazy so i don't think it's a good build, it's a good build if you can catch your opponent off guard and he doesn't make a third queen because one voidray+2 phoenix can kill 2 queens.
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I just watched a game where darkforce used this against whitera... and it was a great success lol
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Well, after last nights GSL finals. I gotta say, this build doesn't look it dies to quick DT very easily.
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On May 15 2011 02:25 QTIP. wrote:
Well, after last nights GSL finals. I gotta say, this build doesn't look it dies to quick DT very easily.
It's a different build. Nestea got lair and more drones then attacked with roach ling and an overseer or two. Still, roach zergling is very powerful, but the build was not the same as the one Losira used to kill Alicia.
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I lost to this again.
So far I think I have lost at least 5/5 times vs these roach/ling timing attack builds.
It's really strong and sim-city + forcefields can only take you so far. Some guy even pressured me lings while my expansion is building so that he can bait forcefields which worked quite well (I would've died if not) and I got up a cannon in time to save my ass until he he did the real timing attack and killed me.
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On May 15 2011 02:46 hypnobean wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 02:25 QTIP. wrote:
Well, after last nights GSL finals. I gotta say, this build doesn't look it dies to quick DT very easily. It's a different build. Nestea got lair and more drones then attacked with roach ling and an overseer or two. Still, roach zergling is very powerful, but the build was not the same as the one Losira used to kill Alicia.
Yeah its obviously a bit different because he had to prepare for the DT's... but once he got the overseer, he just simply had way more units than InCa, not to mention the DT's meant less sentries so there was really no chance of holding it off.
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nestea's build seems to incorporated +1 melee attack which also stops any stargate/dt timings.
my question is how to transition into defending a 4gate?
i think the reason it works so well is the fact that it makes forcefielding for protoss too hard, or makes them use too many which makes it hard to defend the zerg reinforcements.
they either have to forcefield the lings off their army, which is close range allowing roaches to move in position
or they forcefield the roaches away, which allows the lings to attack their army
or they forcefield both away, and then the ling + roach can just back off and wait for them to wear off
or they use double the forcefields to trap lings while cutting off roaches.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 15 2011 02:47 iChau wrote:
I lost to this again.
So far I think I have lost at least 5/5 times vs these roach/ling timing attack builds.
It's really strong and sim-city + forcefields can only take you so far. Some guy even pressured me lings while my expansion is building so that he can bait forcefields which worked quite well (I would've died if not) and I got up a cannon in time to save my ass until he he did the real timing attack and killed me.
I *think* the real strength in this build is that the 3 gate expo pushes your expansion timing far back enough that the Zerg has the ability to get their expo up earlier unhindered AND you as protoss are not able to attack which allows for a fast 2 base saturation to occur. This means that before your expansion pays for itself the Zerg with a 2 base advantage whereas the protoss is behind economically. This aggressive build denies the protoss the option to be greedy and cut corners through teching and sentry investment to punish them for either expanding late or not pressuring enough.
I think 3 gate expo is still viable but the protoss cannot be so greedy as to make as many sentries as they do since the Zerg will run them over. Perhaps a 3 gate one gas expo with early pressure and only a few sentries is useful?
If you go forge before nexus off three gateways perhaps you can get your cannons up earlier and by chronoing units and only having 2 or three sentries you can hold?
all you really need are a couple of forcefields to save the cannon from ling attacks, and to keep your army from being flanked through a mineral line. with more stalker/zealot you can probably hold the roaches and range them and save the stalkers from lings. focusing a cannon or two on roaches would also help no?
Im still diamond and my micro is very poor as I havent put much focus on it as a player but I think that perhaps Protoss needs to start seeing 3 gate sentry expo as greedy (900 gas is a LOT of tech time and units which suck at attacking) and not as safe as we once assumed it was...
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I really only run into problems executing this build when I delay my push long enough for the protoss to get up the forge and a cannon or two. I've kinda worked it out to where I get a quicker lair than losira, more gas, and start +1 before I start pumping roaches, which works out to a pretty good timing (in plat, at least) where +1 range finishes during the fight and I just end up rolling my opponent.
I really think if most of my protoss opponents had worked a forge into this a little earlier and used cannons to bolster the sentry/zealot/stalker force, I wouldn't have had so much success with this build recently.
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I think people are stuck in the meta-game mind set, where 3-Gate Sentry FE is standard vs Zerg and is considered safe. But I think it's been shown in the past few weeks that it's fragile and is in fact not safe if the Zerg decides to do anything about it. Most Zergs however sit on their ass all game-long and pray that the enemy does not attack. All this strategy is about is exploiting the fact that the 3 Gate FE is fragile, and exploiting a powerful timing where the Zerg can build a lot of Roaches and Lings off his 2 bases.
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I'm confused-- I just came back from a one month hiatus from playing the game and have played ~6 Zergs on ladder and not a single one used this build. Has it been "figured out" and I'm just behind on the metagame, or did I just hit the only 6 Z on ladder not doing this
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incase you didnt notice snaphoo, he started this thread in april, things change.
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On July 02 2011 10:43 DAttEBay0 wrote:
incase you didnt notice snaphoo, he started this thread in april, things change.
Can you clarify why things have changed?
I've seen this build used by Moon and Sen at MLG Columbus and DreamHack, respectively, so it's clearly not totally obsolete, and even if it is, I'd like to understand why as it was giving me lots of trouble before I went on hiatus.
Understanding the metagame is a major part of getting better at the game itself, so your snideness aside, I would actually like to know.
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how about instead of going stargate we go robo first, it seems like stargate just cannot cut it with this style of play.
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I still use this build pretty often when the protoss tries expanding on maps like typhon peaks or meta without a good sim city. Actually I generally do it on these maps really often because the toss often doesn't want to go through the trouble of really making a secure set up on some of these maps. I see people move down their ramp and attempt to expand with like 3 sentries, and 1 zealot (and this is masters mind you), so its a no brainer to go for the roach/ling attack.
It is really easy to transition into, or not to do, based one what you see the protoss doing. If you are taking care when expanding (sometimes delaying it), getting proper cannon/sim city placement and getting enough units before expanding, then you probably won't see it too often.
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The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
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On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote:
The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
So this build got figured out by Forge FEs?
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On July 02 2011 12:15 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote:
The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh. So this build got figured out by Forge FEs?
More that the newer maps are well suited for forge FEs, so there is less need to 3 gate expand over 16 nexus or FFE. Without the long period where the zerg is a base ahead, the roach ling all in really isn't nearly as threatening. I still see roach ling all ins a lot on open natural maps like xel naga.
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On July 02 2011 12:15 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote:
The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh. So this build got figured out by Forge FEs? Well, sort of the opposite - this build exploits protoss who try to cut corners on their FE. It isn't 'figured out' by FFE, FFE is what protoss stepped away from to a faster greedier style that nets you econ AND decent tech catch-up.
If you don't want to pony up the early cash for cannons, your tech can keep pace with the zerg and you get an amazing lead - which is what zergs have been complaining about.
This build just exploits that sort of greedy play - go back to safe FFE and you don't have to worry about it.
If you're asking for advice on how to stay without cannons and still stop this aggression - I have no idea - and I hope noone else does either, cuz it's bullshit if you can do that 
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EPT
