As I'm sure some of you haven't watched the games yet, be warned that this thread is going to contain spoilers for the games, so go watch them here first.
With that done, I'd like to get on with describing the games and opening up the discussion. I was hoping someone else would get this started, since it's my first time starting a topic, but I'm running out of patience waiting for it
edit2: Note that I never meant to imply that this build is the future of the matchup - I was only using the game as a basis for discussing the future of the matchup. I would change the topic if I could, since it seems to be pissing people off. But I can't. Deal with it.
Cross positions. Alicia scouts counterclockwise on pylon, finds Losira going pool/gas first, proceeds to drop Core. Losira is able to drop his hatch without being blocked. Losira gets 4 lings out and the probe retreats around 3:45 as usual. Alicia adds two gates and intends to do a standard sentry expand. Losira drones hard and adds metabolic boost (relatively late, only one drone on gas, doesn't start until 5:00), as well as dropping a roach warren at 5:40. Double queens.
Now things get interesting. After getting to 34 drones he starts producing roaches and lings exclusively and rallying them over to the Protoss base. The nexus is dropped at a standard timing, hallucination is being researched, forge has been added on and a cannon is warping in, and Alicia starts moving out with 7 sentries and 2 zealots to apply some pressure. He gets caught by some of the early lings, has to use some forcefields to be able to retreat to his natural. Adds 3 stalkers. Losira rallies only lings at this point.
Some of the best forcefields I've ever seen save Alicia from losing the game straight up at this point. He loses several probes to killing the last of the roaches. At the aftermath of this, Losira has somehow managed to drop his third as well as switched over to drones instead of lings as soon as he saw his roaches fall. He still has about 25 lings on the field, which gives him map control over the severely harried force of Alicia. He's up in supply 72 vs 55, and up in workers roughly (hard to tell with a VOD) 50 vs 33.
Losira adds another queen, adds an evo chamber and gets his Lair tech. Alicia gets a robo. Losira keeps droning hard and begins +1 ranged as well as creep spreading. Burrow and overlord speed is researched shortly after Lair finishes, and Losira adds an Overseer. A 4th gate is added by Alicia, as well as a Twilight Council and +1 attack.
The first observer is built by Alicia and he also hallucinates a Void Ray instead of a Phoenix and shows it to an Overlord. Losira adds a sporecrawler and drops a Hydra den, as well as begins researching drops. Immortal comes out for Alicia. Hydras being hatched for Losira.
Alicia continues production of Immortals and gets his third. Losira keeps making drones and hydras and spreading that creep. Losira now has 5 queens on the field, 2 completely devoted to laying creep tumors. It's now 109 vs 88 supply and 77 drones vs 46 probes.
Alicia begins researching blink and adds a robo bay and 3 more gates, and moves out after scouting Losira with a hallu-phoenix. Losira keeps pumping out hydras, and starts adding in roaches. Alicia walks around killing the occasional ling scout, Losira gets started on +1 melee and keeps producing roaches and lings, as well as drops another hatch (his 4th base) in the "natural" spot. Alicia pokes at it and meets a fearsome army (now 150 vs 94 supply).
Alicia executes flawless forcefields and shuts away the entire roach/hydra army from his lings. He begins retreating after killing the lings. Yet another set of flawless forcefields traps a few of the roaches and denies all the hydras, but his army gets trapped on Losira's part of the map. Losira splits his roach/hydra army in half and flanks from three sides with ling reinforcements making up the third side. Excellent forcefields denies one half of the roach/hydra army, but the 2/3rds that are not forcefielded are enough to defeat Alicia's forces.
168 vs 79 supply at the end of that. During the fight, a baneling nest, a second evo chamber and a spire has been dropped for Losira, and the first Colossus has come out for Alicia. +1 carapace gets started. Losira attacks the third through the backdoor with speedlings while he gets his main army (roach/hydra) in position in the natural. Losira focusfires the nexus at the natural and retreats with his hydras.
Losira begins researching baneling speed and Alicia begins researching thermal lances. Losira makes a bunch of banelings and a few corruptors and roaches, while Alicia keeps adding Colossi. Losira loads up 5 overlords with banelings, sends one to drop at the mineral line of the third base. Some great micro from Alicia at this last fight, but Losira's army is simply too big. GG.
Cross positions. Alicia scouts on pylon and finds Losira before he has built anything. Losira pulls out a drone to get his natural, but drops the gas and pool as soon as the probe leaves. Alicia drops a pylon to block the hatch but cancels it, and Losira drops the hatch shortly thereafter. Alicia once again does the standard gate/core opening off 2gas.
Losira makes 4 lings like last time, doesn't start his metabolic boost until 4:15 (1 drone on gas) and drops his roach warren at 5:40. On the other side of the map, we see the pattern repeating here; Alicia gets his 3 gates, gets a lot of sentries out, and takes his natural. After that he drops a stargate followed by a forge. Losira drops an evo chamber.
At 6:40 Losira begins his pressure and makes 8 roaches just like last time, followed by speedlings. Alicia supplyblocks himself and delays the first voidray slightly. 33 drones vs 28 probes. A cannon is warped in at the natural. Alicia makes a phoenix. Speedlings charge into the mineral lines, the roaches charge into the front. Excellent forcefields at the start, but eventually he misses one and the lings get through and rip the sentries to shreds.
The voidray is unable to do significant damage to the roaches, there aren't enough stalkers, and Losira overwhelms Alicia. GG.
Losira is showcasing what to me looks like an amazing opening against Protoss. I kept thinking, how do you stop this without crippling yourself? We already see that Losira is ahead in economy - he has his natural up and running with more drones than Alicia has probes, and Alicia can't, imho, take that expansion faster than he is and be safe against what might be coming out of Losira.
The biggest problem here is the gaping hole of information from 3:50, when the first lings come out and chase away the scouting probe, until 7:00-7:30 or so when the first hallucination might get across the field. At that point it's too late. A stalker would perhaps be a wise investment instead of the sentry in order to regain map control until ling speed completes at 6:00 (although, technically, if Losira had 3 drones in gas, the metabolic boost would be started a full minute earlier, and thus, complete a full minute earlier). Once again, lack of information, while the zerg holds all the cards.
If the protoss is one-basing and isn't getting his expansion, you don't need to execute this roach/ling pressure build, and can simply tech up and prepare for a longer game with the economic advantage. In fact, I would argue that Losira only commits to the pressure build when he sees the Nexus go up. I'm fairly certain that if Alicia was one-basing, Losira would try to find out what he's doing with an overlord and simply get a few more drones and play it 2base vs 1base. Something the zerg should always be able to come out on top with.
Artosis claims that fast DTs will destroy this, but in the second game we see Losira dropping an evo chamber well in time to drop a spore before any DTs arrive. He should be relatively safe from a DT rush. But, that doesn't mean DTs are a horrible answer. Even if you are unable to do any offensive damage at all with your DTs, you can defend your expansion with it and regain map control until the zerg is sitting on Lair tech. This should make you safe against the opening at least.
This does raise another concern however; will DT rushing be the only way to stop this build? Will thus DT expansions (as zerg will become accustomed to DT rushes and include the evo chamber and spores) be the standard way of playing PvZ in the future? Or is there some other way to stop this build as well?
This build is incredibly difficult to stop. If well executed on maps with open naturals (I tried it on xel'naga) in short-mid rush distances I have practiced against it a good amount trying 3gate expand.
I started dropping a forge in my base as soon as I had the minerals with 3gates on CD. I place one cannon and chrono hallucinate. If the roaches are incoming, I found that dropping another 2-3 cannons and delaying until they finish and you get a robo or two more gates online can stop this rush.
Also, forge expand crushes it if you go straight into 4-5 gate + a robo or stargate. The preemptive cannons really make a difference against roaches.
In my mind, Losira plays how a zerg should play, and not too dissimilar to July. Zergs have the capability of churning out a very quick attack force to exploit timings where a greedy protoss may be weak but we have not seen this style much
This is not the future of PvZ. It is the current PvZ that I face since 2-3 weeks. Roach+lings attacks against 3 gate expo are fairly common on eu ladder and baneling drops is used as well. Especially since 2 ground upgrades make baneling one shot probes, baneling drops are very effective.
I really don't like FFE. It suffers from two major problems imho;
- being incredibly defensive, allowing the zerg to drone up unprevented assuming he can stop any stargate harrass, and even grab a third before you're able to marshal a force capable of pressuring him - being incredibly vulnerable to baneling busts followed by speedlings (see July vs Frozen in the last GSTL for example)
I feel like it's hitting too late if you have hallucination up. The zerg should literally be on your doorstep at 7 minutes flat with 8 roaches and 30 or so speedlings. Alicia was able to warp in a single cannon and barely finished his third warpin from his 3 gates before Losira reached him on Terminus RE cross positions; which is a HUGE map.
On April 29 2011 01:45 Anomandaris wrote: This is not the future of PvZ. It is the current PvZ that I face since 2-3 weeks. Roach+lings attacks against 3 gate expo are fairly common on eu ladder and baneling drops is used as well. Especially since 2 ground upgrades make baneling one shot probes, baneling drops are very effective.
Perhaps I was unclear with the topic; the limit on characters wouldn't allow me to describe it further. I meant the two points to be separate, but connected in a way. I wanted to use the Losira vs Alicia games as a basis for talking about the future of PvZ and where the metagame might be going from here.
This is my basic ZvP opener and has been working very well.... Great vs 3 gate expand, obv crushes 4 gate, can kill toss straight up if he invests in early air and skimps on ground units. If you fail to deny/kill toss's nexus at the nat and you dont do significant damage you will be behind, but even then you can just do a full production cycle of drones and not be too far behind.
How are you supposed to scout this when they have speedlings, and will hallucinate (perhaps the only scout) be up in time after the warp gate research changes from 140 to 180 seconds? I understand Artosis "get DT's" to counter it, but you can't do that blind and it takes forever too. I saw someone in the LR thread say it beats "greedy Protosses." Since when is 3 gate expand greedy?
On April 28 2011 21:20 babysimba wrote: The reason why Alicia lost to that aggression so easily is because he did not build a wall in front of his natural. It might be a mindfk maneuver (cancel nexus 4wg), but losira just went ahead with the aggression anyway.
This was what i said in the LR thread after the games, but nobody seems to care. It's a price that Alicia pay for hiding scouting info. from zerg.
In the first game, he moved out unnecessarily wasting forcefields in the process, and he almost manage to hold. If he had partially walled off with his forge (that was in his base) and an extra gateway (he expanded earlier than usual before the required sentry count thus might not afford be to afford or he chose not to for whatever reason), he would be able to hold even with the wasted forcefield out on the field, since he will only need half the forcefield to defend.
In the second game, again there was no wall, and he took the risk of teching up to stargate instead of extra gateways. A stargate that early can help delay zerg's third with voidrays which will proceed to a macro rape easily in the late game (July vs MC Group Stage Xel'nega Caverns). It was a strat that comes with some risk, and Alicia makes it riskier by not building the forge at the natural.
the builld is semi-allin and only works on maps with wide naturals. forcefields reign supreme vs. this and if the protoss has more than 1 cannon up you won't do any damage and therefore be behind with 3base and 38 drones (lol) and no army. your lair is late, your burrow is late everything is late. a direct counter attack will kill the zerg with no problem at all. good to know push but heavy dependent on map/natural expansion.
nice write up. but what makes you think that this is different from what the zergs have been doing? is it the 1 drone on one gas? i can see how that helps a bit getting more minerals. other than that one gas one drone build I see no difference. roach ling pressure has always been quite strong.
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
I would just sum up Losira's style as 2 base roach ling aggression into taking your third and pushing again with hydras on three base because protoss will likely have low colossus count and then taking your fourth into an unknown army composition because the game didn't go on that long.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
I don't know that I agree about the whole wall thing. Whilst holding 8 roaches and ~30 lings is surely doable off a 3gate with perfect forcefields, especially if you partially wall off your natural, those 8 roaches will be able to snipe those gateways without the Protoss' stalkers being able to do much. That's sort of the charm of the build; he can choose to leave his lings behind when he sees the wall, only engage with roaches, and use the protoss wall against him. Once the gateways fall, the Protoss is behind on production and a steady stream of lings will eventually kill him. I would say in order to hold it with just 3gate production and without taking enough damage to put you behind, the zerg would either have to make a mistake or you would have to outplay him significantly.
The difference between this and what I've been seeing in other roach/ling early attacks are the timings lining up perfectly for maximum effect. It's sort of the zerg's version of a 4gate, if you don't mind me using that comparison. He delays the gas to get more minerals and get a more economical opening; but he still takes the gas early to signal that, hey, I'm going to get speedlings so I'm taking map control; go hide in your base until you got more units. He drops the roach warren such that it will complete just in time for him to pump out the 8 roaches as needed in case the Protoss does drop a nexus at the standard timing. When this happens he cuts the drones and streams nothing but lings over. It's a very refined build, which is exactly what the 4gate is as well. He's being extremely economical until point X, and then his army instantly swells. Just like a 4gate.
In the second game Alicia quite clearly lost because of the stargate, and in the first he did perhaps make a slight blunder with the move-out and wasted a few forcefields, but I would argue that no other Protoss in the world could've held that attack any better. Just because of the timings working in Losira's favor. People say to scout it, but the fact remains that Protoss are BLIND to a zerg going gas/pool first between the times you would be able to scout it. You can see it coming when he starts moving out (that's around the time Hallucination would be deployable), but Alicia did exactly what he had to in order to defend it; warp in units as soon as he could. He didn't lose a single unit to his poke into the middle of the map, he only lost a bit of energy, and he had forcefields for that entire fight anyway.
I would argue that even though he held that first attack on Terminus, he was behind. He was 2base vs 3base, Losira had a queen for each hatchery, and he was droning hard AND had map control with his speedlings. The game was his to lose at that point. And all because of the opening doing nothing but killing off most of Alicia's army as well as a few probes. It was as well defended as was humanly possible I think. I don't believe that a single cannon (which was the only mistake of significance imo) would've made enough of a difference to make the situation salvageable.
You said it Markwerf. I am really trying to see how to discuss the "future metagame of pvz" from this game. + Show Spoiler +
Certainly Alicia is good and was caught of guard
but Markwerf is so correct, this is not exactly super special revolutionary. People have attacked with roaches and lings pre-lair before. Now more players might mimic him sure, but that happens exactly every gsl, with all the races.
How is it cheese when you're expanding behind it and almost guaranteed to do damage? Maybe if the toss can roll over it without taking any losses and the zerg has zero army leftover, but at the very least, cannons built= econ losses. We've already seen Hydra drops demolish FFE builds, although that isn't necessarily guaranteed either. Hydras, drop tech, and overlord speed are all useful to have later as well.
I'm not claiming toss weak, but I wanna know how I can safely expand when 3 gate/sentry expand is so fragile, apparently. I read some comments elsewhere about making choke points with buildings, but doesn't that sometimes mean walling yourself in while roaches peck away at your buildings?
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
Idra's was basically an all-in with much fewer drones. You can actually transition out of Losira's pressure build.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
And for those of you who skip the edit on the OP because you already read it once; people seem to be taking the topic to mean something I didn't intend it to. I would edit it if I could, but alas, I am not permitted to. I'm merely looking to discuss alternatives to DT openings to battle this very refined zerg build.
it's not super cheesy at all as long as a Zerg is making a third behind it and knows when to stop with the aggression
the aggression is meant to reduce Sentry energy and Sentry count. if the aggression can reduce probe count & take down buildings, then that is a bonus.
the reason for doing this is to remove an attack timing from Protoss where they have tons of Sentry energy pooled which then obviously allows them to dictate where the battle occurs.
if the early roach/ling pressure is executed well by the Zerg player, then the Protoss is forced to turtle because they either have to wait to build up Sentry energy and/or rebuild their Sentry numbers. if the Protoss player were to move out without sufficient Sentry energy, then they'll just end up being overrun by Zerg forces. this allows the Zerg player to drone pump hard off of 3 base.
this type of build also isn't new at all. Kyrix did this against Hongun on the very same map. July has been doing this. there are a lot of Zergs currently doing this.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
you can do it in non-cheese ways too. ie: just rally the roaches over. and focus fire the sentries, pretty easy to be cost effective.
Uh, can you link the game where Kyrix did this to Hongun? The only one I can find is the one in the group play where Hongun does a forge expand and Kyrix goes for his third when he scouts it.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
I dont get why u think its a new zerg style? This particular semi-all in is very popular on eu server , and has been for a few months already. Is easily defended if u put a forge right after u make nexus , and scout with ilusion (fenix) what is zerg doing , in case of no lair tech > make 3 canons , stop making probes , chono gateways and most important !! - dont get supply blocked.
In my mind, Losira plays how a zerg should play, and not too dissimilar to July. Zergs have the capability of churning out a very quick attack force to exploit timings where a greedy protoss may be weak but we have not seen this style much
Zergs have been staying in macro mode for much to long. Mostly from Beta where Idra showed to power of a pure macro zerg 200 army a move attack. But the more time that pass the more its scene that against Protoss both Zerg and Terran have to either harass or be aggressive with timing pushes.
On April 29 2011 03:21 turbopasca1 wrote: I dont get why u think its a new zerg style? This particular semi-all in is very popular on eu server , and has been for a few months already. Is easily defended if u put a forge right after u make nexus , and scout with ilusion (fenix) what is zerg doing , in case of no lair tech > make 3 canons , stop making probes , chono gateways and most important !! - dont get supply blocked.
The timings are critically different, I believe. At least I've never seen anything quite as refined as what Losira executed.
1. In a FFE, protoss usually has only 2 or 3 units (counting the one cannon as a unit) that can actually do damage, depending on how many sentries/ticklers he makes. It's not startling that a decent-sized ling/roach push has the potential to do a lot of damage, especially if FFs aren't perfect.
2. How is a 2 base timing push, followed with taking a 3rd, considered cheese?
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
I disagree. You can't really scout it coming, so you'd obviously have to make the wall preemptively. Which means the zerg can scout it. Which gives him a choice of going through with the attack or not. Assuming he does go through with it (I would), he can use that wall of gateways/forges against the protoss. 8 roaches can drop a building pretty darn fast, and the Protoss won't have more than 3-4 stalkers to defend initially, and they'll be trapped behind their own buildings. It becomes a micro war at this point and the roaches have the upper hand by having the buildings as a secondary target to fall back to if the stalkers back off.
He can even choose to rally further roaches at this point, rather than speedlings, since the wall is only delaying his attack, not preventing it. Once he does bust the wall, you're in the same situation as you were in without the wall, with a few more units, but without your production facilities, and he has more units as well. Constant rallied units would eventually kill you at this point since your production can't keep up with his.
On April 29 2011 03:28 AimForTheBushes wrote: 1. In a FFE, protoss usually has only 2 or 3 units (counting the one cannon as a unit) that can actually do damage, depending on how many sentries/ticklers he makes. It's not startling that a decent-sized ling/roach push has the potential to do a lot of damage, especially if FFs aren't perfect.
2. How is a 2 base timing push, followed with taking a 3rd, considered cheese?
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
you really think expanding while attacking is cheesy? take a look at game 1 and 2. does a similar build. always up on supply on toss. lol lol
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
Agreed, anyone who has been watching idra's stream these past 2 weeks can see that he does this with pretty good consistency vs protoss and it is a fairly all-inISH build, not completely, but many times if he fails outright he will just leave. This is what top zergs are already doing to open against protoss expos.
Lol this is not a future, I've seen this build for so long already. I think Alicia lost b/c he didn't have a good wall and enough cannon, his VRs was out of position.
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
On April 29 2011 03:18 vojnik wrote: i see sheth do this kind of timing a lot
Again, any kind of link would be awesome. I'll add it to the op if it pans out.
i dont have an exact link because i saw it several times on his stream recently he released lots of replays and was planning on watching them if i find this in any i will post it, would be really nice if sheth can shed some light on this topic tho since he knows his timings best :D Also depending on the situation he drones while attacking or adds more units if situation seems like he can do more dmg. Also think he explains this sort of earlier agression in Mr Bitters 12 weeks with the pros, vVvTitan also has similar timing a bit earlier even with 5 roaches + lings which was also on 12 weeks with the pros.
I completely disagree with the people saying that a wall in would not have halted most of that pressure. If the cannon had been able to finish with power, the entire battle would have been different. By placing pylon for the wall back by the mineral line and a gateway+forge between the ramp and nexux, only about 1/3 of the FFs would have been needed to keep out the zerglings. If the zerg chooses to use the lings to take the wall down faster, they will likely lose >5 lings which isn't worth 1 gateway or forge if you are committing to the attack. If they only attack with the roaches, the cannon finishes with power, or the roaches are attacking from within stalker range, either of which would let the protoss hold, especially if he wasn't forced to use as many force fields early.
Couldn't stay awake long enough for Losira's games but definitely watching the VODs when I get a chance. His good decisions make his games educational entertainment for newbie zergs like me. For those posters citing his low drone count at some points in the game, I think it's sort of a strawman argument to say his build is cheese. He's not going all-in to win the game because he can't play macro, he wanted to get his 3rd pumping and early-ish roach ling aggression looked like the safest way to get there. The way zerg econ works, I think it is important to look at drone counts not only at one time, but also one production cycle later. A lot of zergs have died to the old "oops, I made a round of drones, and he made a bunch of units near my base GG" Making the units first and then the drones is a slight economic sacrifice, but it comes with insurance: map awareness at the very least, map control and a pinned opponent most cases, and with good control you can actually do damage like Losira did, even against an excellent opponent.
Thanks OP for highlighting the games. Looking closely at what Losira managed to scout, when he pushed, and when he made the transition back into drones can really help.
On April 29 2011 03:48 Big J wrote: some things about the analysis:
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
Protoss sort of HAS to move out that early, or the zerg will gain an immense economic lead going into the midgame if he's droning. He didn't actually lose anything other than 3 (or was it 4?) forcefields on that encounter at the XNT, and as I stated earlier he also had enough energy left to FF the entire battle following that.
The drone difference was 50 vs 35 after the first engagement in game 1 I believe (I noted it in my initial summary - you can check the actual VOD if you want). Losira had 3 hatches with queens pumping drones and the speedlings over to control the map and plenty of time to react to Alicia moving out, which he obviously couldn't since his army was crippled.
I sincerely doubt Losira fell for the void ray as it was firing on overlords and not doing any obvious damage, and it was fairly obvious that Alicia was just giving it away to the queens. Noone at code s level would micro a void ray that badly. He wanted the detection and the hydras regardless, because he knew that the only way he might lose at this point was either to DTs or mass void ray. He had enough of an economic lead that he could play it safe.
Alicia didn't have the economy to support a 6gate until way, way later. He had barely enough to support constant warpins from the 3 gates he had as well as probes and adding the robo. Losira was playing SAFE by droning that hard, not risky. He knew that Alicia wouldn't be able to pressure him without rebuilding his sentries and letting them gain energy.
Game 2 isn't really a viable discussion since he went stargate and I doubt this is actually holdable off 3gates without constant warpins, and I only really mentioned it since it'd be stupid to leave it out completely.
Destiny has done this build also, he gets 36 drones, 8 roaches+burrow/claws(no speed) and about 25-30 lings then pushes. He uses the lings for the run by distraction by running round the nexus, then crashes in with his roaches from behind and snipes all the sentries.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
QFT
It's only super effective if the protoss is late on walling in his natural or is playing poorly imo.
As was mentioned before this is not revolutionary. It's a really solid pressure build that counters a lot of what toss does. You tend to be able to get map control and you can even transition into mutas at some point. And the hilarious thing about it is that when I refined the build in single player and started using it on ladder, what did I immediately face? I got blind DT rushed 2 games in a row, and lost horribly. Especially on the big maps it is really hard to scout the DTs in time so it's pretty much a super hard counter. If you use it regularly you probably want to work in an evo chamber somewhere as a standard timing it out before DTs show up. However, it's still hard to get spores down in time without specifically knowing they're coming and it pretty much ends your attack at that point and you have to regroup and transition into lair and tech. I would happily invite DT rushes every game if I know they're coming and I haven't tested it a lot but I think it might be a comfortable way to actually go mutas in ZvP because at that point you know a few things: a big gateway unit attack is not that threatening, investing that much gas in DTs they'll have no stargate and if they do they're really allin, and they're going to be behind in bases so economically mutas become a lot more feasible.
I wish people would stop saying "x has done this before too" and either a) not provide a replay/vod, or b) proceed to say he did something similar, but slightly different.
If the attack hits at 8 minutes or later, it's not the same build; it's too slow. If the attack hits with 5 or 6 roaches and with less drones up, it's not the same; it's too all-in.
It's like comparing a 3gate with a 4gate. Just because he "had roaches and speedlings and attacked first" doesn't mean it's the same build. If someone else has done a build where the 8 roaches and ~30 lings show up at the protoss' doorstep right as the very first stalkers get warped in (around 7:30), feel free to correct me with a link to said replay/vod/buildorder/whatever.
I've not seen anything as refined as what Losira executed today, and I sincerely doubt holding onto your natural with nothing but a 3gate sentry expand into a forge is actually viable unless it's Crevasse or something.
On April 29 2011 04:35 truthless wrote: I wish people would stop saying "x has done this before too" and either a) not provide a replay/vod, or b) proceed to say he did something similar, but slightly different.
If the attack hits at 8 minutes or later, it's not the same build; it's too slow. If the attack hits with 5 or 6 roaches and with less drones up, it's not the same; it's too all-in.
It's like comparing a 3gate with a 4gate. Just because he "had roaches and speedlings and attacked first" doesn't mean it's the same build. If someone else has done a build where the 8 roaches and ~30 lings show up at the protoss' doorstep right as the very first stalkers get warped in (around 7:30), feel free to correct me with a link to said replay/vod/buildorder/whatever.
I've not seen anything as refined as what Losira executed today, and I sincerely doubt holding onto your natural with nothing but a 3gate sentry expand into a forge is actually viable unless it's Crevasse or something.
Yeah i think sadly most of people on this thread doesn't understand the difference between what Losira did and the all-ins they saw from others players or what they are facing on the ladder...
It's hilarious that people are considering this an all-in build, Losira had 2 saturated bases when he produces 1 round, and only 1 round of roaches... they are cheep units, and producing them is not committing you to any rigid build paths, they are just there to poke and take out a greedy protoss. once he sees that he can just win the game he starts pumping more lings, if thats not the case he is getting his third and continues droning.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
I disagree. You can't really scout it coming, so you'd obviously have to make the wall preemptively. Which means the zerg can scout it. Which gives him a choice of going through with the attack or not. Assuming he does go through with it (I would), he can use that wall of gateways/forges against the protoss. 8 roaches can drop a building pretty darn fast, and the Protoss won't have more than 3-4 stalkers to defend initially, and they'll be trapped behind their own buildings. It becomes a micro war at this point and the roaches have the upper hand by having the buildings as a secondary target to fall back to if the stalkers back off.
He can even choose to rally further roaches at this point, rather than speedlings, since the wall is only delaying his attack, not preventing it. Once he does bust the wall, you're in the same situation as you were in without the wall, with a few more units, but without your production facilities, and he has more units as well. Constant rallied units would eventually kill you at this point since your production can't keep up with his.
That's the beauty of this imo, you force the metagame to a point where Protoss has to expand behind a wall in order to be safe or he'll get aggro'd to death. While that doesn't put protoss behind by all that much it does eliminate Nexus cancel builds like we've seen in MC vs July or Socke vs IdrA, because if a zerg sees protoss expanding without a wall (like you would do if you're going to cancel) he'll be making a bunch of units anyways. Also, if the protoss is going for Stargate or DT, you get a little bit of forewarning because he'll need to use that tech to defend, which means you have more time to react to it. If you have an evo chamber already complete you'll probably be able to get some spores before DT's/air arrives.
i don't think it's the future... It's more of a representation of how the games turn out when 2 realllly good players are playing each other. We're used to sloppy and crappy players playing each other and making a lot of mistakes so this might seem like something new to the untrained eye.
On April 29 2011 05:20 spacebarbarian wrote: It's hilarious that people are considering this an all-in build, Losira had 2 saturated bases when he produces 1 round, and only 1 round of roaches... they are cheep units, and producing them is not committing you to any rigid build paths, they are just there to poke and take out a greedy protoss. once he sees that he can just win the game he starts pumping more lings, if thats not the case he is getting his third and continues droning.
exactly, and even though you're delaying your drones substantially, if protoss wasn't playing safe against this you're also delaying his expansion so it evens out. I would much rather have 30 drones on 2 base than 40 probes on 1 base :D
Going DTs or Stargate is really telling just by scouting the front of the Protoss' base with your initial lings. Most likely they will get a stalker and will rarely get sentry's due to how much gas it takes so its hard to fake DTs without sacrificing time to get them. Also, they will also have very few units and the expansion will be late. I doubt that if Alicia went DTs against Losira that he will still do that push. That push was I think primarily triggered by the fact that Losira saw the expansion go down as well as the high amount of sentrys in the army. And as mentioned previously, Losira had an evo ready in order to stop any potential of DTs should he know they were there. Its an overall very nice push and definately worth looking into with more detail. Do not however that those units need to do some damage in order to come out on top.
On April 29 2011 03:48 Big J wrote: some things about the analysis:
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
Protoss sort of HAS to move out that early, or the zerg will gain an immense economic lead going into the midgame if he's droning. He didn't actually lose anything other than 3 (or was it 4?) forcefields on that encounter at the XNT, and as I stated earlier he also had enough energy left to FF the entire battle following that.
The drone difference was 50 vs 35 after the first engagement in game 1 I believe (I noted it in my initial summary - you can check the actual VOD if you want). Losira had 3 hatches with queens pumping drones and the speedlings over to control the map and plenty of time to react to Alicia moving out, which he obviously couldn't since his army was crippled.
I sincerely doubt Losira fell for the void ray as it was firing on overlords and not doing any obvious damage, and it was fairly obvious that Alicia was just giving it away to the queens. Noone at code s level would micro a void ray that badly. He wanted the detection and the hydras regardless, because he knew that the only way he might lose at this point was either to DTs or mass void ray. He had enough of an economic lead that he could play it safe.
Alicia didn't have the economy to support a 6gate until way, way later. He had barely enough to support constant warpins from the 3 gates he had as well as probes and adding the robo. Losira was playing SAFE by droning that hard, not risky. He knew that Alicia wouldn't be able to pressure him without rebuilding his sentries and letting them gain energy.
Game 2 isn't really a viable discussion since he went stargate and I doubt this is actually holdable off 3gates without constant warpins, and I only really mentioned it since it'd be stupid to leave it out completely.
Alicia was already dead after that first engagement, against a player who know how to macro and trade units, the rest of the game is pretty much irrelevant. You don't move out if you are playing greedy. Nexus is planted even seconds before warpgate is completed, with only around 5 sentries. Moving out with just 1 more wave of units without a wall and cannons is just bad decision making. Even if a good zerg player is playing passive, he won't get fooled by that small amt. of units (7sentries + 2 zealots). With that much gas pumped into sentries, the only remaining aggressive strat is nexus cancel wg all-in which would have a much bigger army, not to mention the long rush distance.
He did not have enough forcefields to defend, i don't know why are you saying those forcefield lasted the whole battle. If he had a semi wall in to force lings to come from only 1 direction and without those wasted forcefields, he would have more than enough forcefield to hold. 2 forcefields to prevent lings from attacking your units, 3 forcefields to prevent roach from attack anything behind the wall. With your ranged units and 1 cannon wearing down their units, and at least 2 waves of forcefield to buy time for warp in, toss can defend without a single loss of units (not buildings though if zerg is suicidal).
On April 29 2011 01:44 Mimus wrote: Really excited to try it out :D!! Hurrah for a recent influx of cool zerg builds (spanishwa, 9 pool, this)
this isn't really a new build, it's just a bit more refined over time. 9 pool definitely isn't new either, and wouldn't say it's particularly good either (more of a gamble).
Anyway, with regards to PvZ and these games, I think that protoss should be getting hallucination before warp gate if they aren't planning to attack, and should only get warp gate for feinted attacks, careful pressure, or 4WG style attack. This is especially the case now, assuming that the 1.33 patch changes will stick, making warp gates considerably less-better to gateways in comparison, in addition to the longer time to get them. With an early hallucinated scout you can spot what they are up to and react accordingly.
Conversely, I might be missing out on a bit of info here (due to the style I've been playing zerg recently), but I always thought 2 gate pressure builds into 4 gate expand style was a good way to keep zerg economy in check while keeping a good idea on what they're doing, even though you likely can't get into their main. Yes it's possible for ass speedling to beat this, but speed takes time, plus even with speed, a critical number of zealots are very efficient vs zerglings. If protoss scouts a gas-pool build then they don't need to even do the pressure if they don't think it will pay off.
On April 29 2011 06:27 Barca wrote: 3 gate expand supposed to be safest PvZ opening, right?
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Well safe is always relative. No matter what build a person does, they are balancing late-game potential vs early-game defense/offense. a 3 gate expand build is a slighty more balanced/agressive way of aiming for a long game. The safest early game build would probably be forge fast exand, when it's done on the proper maps.
3 gate expo can have trouble with burrow roach rush in the same way it has problems with this zergling-roach build — it's not a guaranteed win and depends on many factors, but still can result in an advantage for the later game. I think 3 gate expo is getting a bit of a stale build, and while it is quite well-rounded and diverse, running the same build too often by players results in things like this happening.
protoss hasn't been doing much innovating it seems, or moreso by that I mean using some old tactics tat were previously innovated, like 2 gate pressure opening, and immortal-zealot warp-in rush. I think this is due to the flat-out domination they've been having with standard play- it just doesn't make them invincible.
Edit: I also rather agree with what MorroW said below me here. This style of zerg play is nothing new, which is why it's surprising that it did so well, although I would say the build was quite-well refined and executed none-the-less (and the multi-tasking was fantastic. As a medium masters player I can say it is ridiculously hard to be base-tending while doing important army-control vs a protoss force — amateur players just couldn't win with this build because of that). I think he explained the problems going on related to the protoss that cause the meltdown in 2 games to occur-- it's not like this happens all the time, people have a tendency to focus too much on specifics of just 1 big tournament match when not accounting for the luck factor adn the bigger picture of things (for instance with regards to how zerg won GSL1)
terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I kind of disagree with what you are saying. But because i respect you alot as a player (your switch was a total baller move) and i'm not 1/10 of your skill. i'm not going to argue with you.
If there are some zergs as good as morrow who wants to discuss what Losira did in this match, they are welcome
On April 29 2011 03:48 Big J wrote: some things about the analysis:
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
Protoss sort of HAS to move out that early, or the zerg will gain an immense economic lead going into the midgame if he's droning. He didn't actually lose anything other than 3 (or was it 4?) forcefields on that encounter at the XNT, and as I stated earlier he also had enough energy left to FF the entire battle following that.
The drone difference was 50 vs 35 after the first engagement in game 1 I believe (I noted it in my initial summary - you can check the actual VOD if you want). Losira had 3 hatches with queens pumping drones and the speedlings over to control the map and plenty of time to react to Alicia moving out, which he obviously couldn't since his army was crippled.
I sincerely doubt Losira fell for the void ray as it was firing on overlords and not doing any obvious damage, and it was fairly obvious that Alicia was just giving it away to the queens. Noone at code s level would micro a void ray that badly. He wanted the detection and the hydras regardless, because he knew that the only way he might lose at this point was either to DTs or mass void ray. He had enough of an economic lead that he could play it safe.
Alicia didn't have the economy to support a 6gate until way, way later. He had barely enough to support constant warpins from the 3 gates he had as well as probes and adding the robo. Losira was playing SAFE by droning that hard, not risky. He knew that Alicia wouldn't be able to pressure him without rebuilding his sentries and letting them gain energy.
Game 2 isn't really a viable discussion since he went stargate and I doubt this is actually holdable off 3gates without constant warpins, and I only really mentioned it since it'd be stupid to leave it out completely.
Alicia was already dead after that first engagement, against a player who know how to macro and trade units, the rest of the game is pretty much irrelevant. You don't move out if you are playing greedy. Nexus is planted even seconds before warpgate is completed, with only around 5 sentries. Moving out with just 1 more wave of units without a wall and cannons is just bad decision making. Even if a good zerg player is playing passive, he won't get fooled by that small amt. of units (7sentries + 2 zealots). With that much gas pumped into sentries, the only remaining aggressive strat is nexus cancel wg all-in which would have a much bigger army, not to mention the long rush distance.
He did not have enough forcefields to defend, i don't know why are you saying those forcefield lasted the whole battle. If he had a semi wall in to force lings to come from only 1 direction and without those wasted forcefields, he would have more than enough forcefield to hold. 2 forcefields to prevent lings from attacking your units, 3 forcefields to prevent roach from attack anything behind the wall. With your ranged units and 1 cannon wearing down their units, and at least 2 waves of forcefield to buy time for warp in, toss can defend without a single loss of units (not buildings though if zerg is suicidal).
I agree, he was dead after the first engagement. I wouldn't say he played greedy. That's pretty much standard timing for a nexus, dropping it just before or just as WGT finishes. Moving out shortly thereafter to clear the nearby XNT if there's no signs of lings in the vicinity of your natural is quite common as well, and there's no guarantee that Alicia isn't 4gating and cancelling his nexus at this point, since Losira didn't scout his base. He wants to force some units instead of drones and that's the way you do it. Deny intel for the zerg.
I just rewatched the engagement on Terminus, and yeah, he did waste more energy than I remembered. 6 forcefields (I remembered 4 or 5) and a guardian shield (that I forgot all about). But he did have energy left to spend until the very end of the following engagement as well. I didn't really see at any point what he could've done with a couple more forcefields. A partial wall (like with the forge and a 4th gateway perhaps) would've helped for sure in conserving some of that energy for a potential counter though, and might even have saved his cannon. Would've been a different game for sure.
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol..
That mineral build up is there because you cant spend the money fast enough---3/4 Chronoboosted warpgates with Cannons WILL NOT spend 2 base income. In most cases it is put into Probes, Tech and more gateways, none of which would ever be up in time by the time that Roach/Ling rips you apart.
People put forges in their main because sometimes it is very easy to have it sniped and the downtime where you can't put down Cannons can mean the end of you. I've being doing it myself lately, but I do agree he should have something there, like another Gateway or double/triple pylon
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
There is nothing to add at that post except maybe one thing : This type of all in or semi all in / agressiv build is becoming more and more the future of ZvP. Everytime I see IdrA he is going for this type of agressive play, I don't see any player who does like Morrow did some time ago anymore : overexpanding and teching up while letting your opponent build his death ball.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
There is nothing to add at that post except maybe one thing : This type of all in is becoming more and more the future of ZvP. Everytime I see IdrA he is going for this type of agressive play, I don't see any player who does like Morrow did some time ago anymore : overexpanding and teching up while letting your opponent build his death ball.
And I suppose the question then is whether or not this development is good for the game. Should Zerg be forced to be super aggressive at all points in the game against Protoss, even if it works? There's something to be said for the viability of both an aggressive and macro style, but it seems like the macro style is working less and less against Protoss players who know how to defend and build up a macro advantage while harassing.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
Zerg play agressive -> toss builds more defensiv structures -> zerg meta game shifts more macro heavy while protoss stays defensiv which would give zerg an edge
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
There is nothing to add at that post except maybe one thing : This type of all in is becoming more and more the future of ZvP. Everytime I see IdrA he is going for this type of agressive play, I don't see any player who does like Morrow did some time ago anymore : overexpanding and teching up while letting your opponent build his death ball.
And I suppose the question then is whether or not this development is good for the game. Should Zerg be forced to be super aggressive at all points in the game against Protoss, even if it works? There's something to be said for the viability of both an aggressive and macro style, but it seems like the macro style is working less and less against Protoss players who know how to defend and build up a macro advantage while harassing.
It's good and bad. It force zerg to step up their mechanics (well some players don't need that obviously, but I do) and to think more about army composition and transition. It's really fun to play when you have the mechanics, but sometime I suck at it and just get destroyed like shit after my off tempo roach push comes out. On the other side, it's pretty volatile style of play, it's very hard to be cost effectiv in agression with zerg at the moment (with the type of unit we have, one fast unit with low range and one low speed with high range, the best for agressiv play is a fast unit with high range) and I think it should be pretty easy for protoss to just stomp us if they actually play a bit more reactionnary and stop rushing for 3 base colossi.
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I've seen many people start doing it (i.e Kiwikaki). Forge in main + Stalker first to deny overlord scouting plays a lot of mind games, people aren't sure if you are going to Nexus cancel and 4gate them.
Then there is also getting caught off guard by Roach/Ling--be it position, lack of units, sentries getting killed or a bad forcefield, if they catch you in a bad spot and your forge is outside your base then you are fucked, it is much safer to have a Gateway there or some Pylons
Thanks for the writeup as I've been too busy to watch GSL lately. I've seen this roach/ling low early gas build gaining popularity and can't wait to refine it myself.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol..
That mineral build up is there because you cant spend the money fast enough---3/4 Chronoboosted warpgates with Cannons WILL NOT spend 2 base income. In most cases it is put into Probes, Tech and more gateways, none of which would ever be up in time by the time that Roach/Ling rips you apart.
People put forges in their main because sometimes it is very easy to have it sniped and the downtime where you can't put down Cannons can mean the end of you. I've being doing it myself lately, but I do agree he should have something there, like another Gateway or double/triple pylon
I don't understand your point. He had not enough gateway to use his money, so he let it pass 500, but that's not because he played horribly, that's because he had nothing to do with the money anyway...
He made a mystake if he had 900 this early without loosing any production building, there is nothing else to add. If he was playing as good as he should, he would have put down other production building or just spent his money in trying to tech up.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
hmmm ok you've just killed my enthusiasm...
maybe it's just a good build to have in the book for some situations, i don't know
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
for the past several weeks i have been winning about every zvp where the protoss went for a 3 gate FE just by doing a roach/ling or roach-only allin as soon as i can confirm that FE going up. Sure Losira has a nice build but after watching the games im sure he just got lucky with it. The toss moving out with such little force without having any idea what zerg is doing is a free invitation to get his army stomped. At least it costs him a lot of forcefields/sentries which he desperately needs to defend his FE. If Alicia was going DT FE i feel like he would have had that much less forcefields. So there is an opening before the first DTs come out (but obviously if you just play the BO and not react to what your opponent does you deserve losing anyway).
Besides all that, i feel like fake pressure would have been the way to beat this build. Clear 1-2 watch towers, run home before any nasty stuff comes along. The zerg would have to sacrifice a lot of economy in case of a real attack but since you didnt spend that much on forcefields yourself you should be fine if there is an attack from zerg incoming.
So in conclusion (and in my humble opinion of course), this build worked only because Alicia didn't have decent Simcity, wasted units/forcefields in useless attacks which he committed too much to and his army composition seemed way too sentry heavy so he couldn't really deal with roaches at all (at least in the first game). I would rather advice on doing what Red did vs Tyler in the match someone posted a few pages ago, if you decide as a zerg to punish a toss for 3 gate expand go all in with Roach/Ling as soon as you can confirm his attempt to do so.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
This is why you SHOULD post in the strategy section. Great post.
Credit to LosirA, but this roach/ling allin is something that should never work against Protoss in its current form. 3gate-expo should always be 100% safe against Zerg.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Yeah..
Sick of the people who act as if this build is some trivial joke to defend if you "do the right things".
It is not, even if you are prepared for it, it is still quite difficult to hold. Regardless of how well you are executing your build and how well are you prepare for it, one or two bad forcefields is all you need to lose your expo.
I can't believe some people are calling this all in. With that aggression Losira was able to secure a 3rd and enough time to drone super hard.And he was never behing in worker count IIRC
I thought it was a good build. It obviously crushes 3 gate fe pretty well or at least puts them really far behind like in game 1. artosis said some stuff about dt's crushing it since they would still be on 2-3 base hatchery tech. I liked the build and didn't think it was all-in ish or cheesy. game 1 was held off but by the time it was over he was on 3 base good economy and great creep spread. Seems tough for the toss to hold or know its coming.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can't be serious...I think what you mean to say is zerg has no 100% safe build that allows them to play greedy and survive against everything. There's nothing greedy about a 3 gate sentry expand at all. It's safe because you sacrifice a very fast expo and early economic power for the insurance you get out of the heavy sentries. The idea is to get on 2 bases "safely" not quickly... if the protoss wanted to be greedy and try to keep pace with the zerg he would do a 15 nexus or even a forge nexus. Forge expand is NOT completely safe... it may be safe to some of your early timings, but are you that clueless as to not understand the ramifications of delaying a ground army until the 7 or 8 minute mark at the earliest? Zerg has 100% safe builds but they dont involve expanding at 14 fking food before putting a pool down. On a side note, do you not realize that aggression provides the safety you are looking for? Have you never heard the cliche the best defense is a good offense?
Bad play from alicia? Alicia played fine and while I agree with your analysis of the forge placement I don't think its fair to say, minus a couple mistakes, that alicia didn't play at least a solid style. His decision to push out on terminus was suicidal, but honestly the game was over when he used all those forcefields early on and STILL took damage. He was insurmountably behind his only chance was to pressure that new hatchery.
It's like some of you pro gamers rely on mechanics so much that you dont think you have to use your brain. Your post is further evidence to me that if pro-gaming was more competitive (as in, more people played SC2 and were willing to dedicate their lives to it) enough brilliant minds would emerge to make you "inside the box" type thinkers into nothing more than a spec.
You're a great player, but your opinion is 100% off-base and wrong I'm sorry.
Morrow how can you say zerg has no 100% safe builds? all builds are safe if you have map control / good scouting and i think zerg has the best of that, overlords, map control from 2min plus , I would feel safe if i could scout the front every half min to see army count etc..
If protoss now make 2 cannons every game just incase their build hits they will be behind instantly be behind because those 300 minerals may not be required if its heavy droning, and you wont find out if your wrong or right until the 7 min mark when you get: A) hallucation finishes - and i know i am only a master but by the time that finishes if i do not have cannons up they are walking to my base with roaches as i send the phonix out so i see it and think crap i am dead unless perfect ff B) stargate (costs units and if the build DOES hit your dead because you dont have enough ground to hold C) robo??? don't know how viable this is.
and if your wrong and they have took a 3rd or mass droned you have missed some vital push timings and your in a rather hard spot because you could be behind big time in econ,.. thats just my 2c
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
It cheesiness depending on how many drones you cut. If you don't do enough damage early on like crippling the toss in some way (i.e. taking out a lot of sentries/forcing a ton of ffs) then you lose. If Alicia just played a little safer (Not poking so far with his first round of sentries) not wasting his forcefields and if he had put his forge at his nat to make a better simcity he would've been completely fine. Not saying this is easy to defend as toss (I've had trouble defending against it), but this is definitely a cheesy opening (again its cheesiness depends on how many drones you sack).
I think if this build gets really popular I'm going to start off my wall at the natural with two pylons instead of one. The reason he lost both games was because he could hardly ever get a cannon running by the time the attack hit is base due to it being unpowered.
You know what, I feel like I'm undermining some knowledgeable people here. So, I would like to make a request.
Could anyone provide a replay where someone else has successfully held it off in a way that you feel like you are behind (as Zerg)?
I don't understand your point. He had not enough gateway to use his money, so he let it pass 500, but that's not because he played horribly, that's because he had nothing to do with the money anyway...
He made a mystake if he had 900 this early without loosing any production building, there is nothing else to add. If he was playing as good as he should, he would have put down other production building or just spent his money in trying to tech up.
At the stage of the game he was in he should be warping in Stalkers, not Sentries, Warping in sentries give you a mineral build up
You should also be chrono boosting probes as well as not losing units, so your supply starts to get used up very quickly and you need to drop pylons in rapid succession, but when you aren't using up supply fast nor building probes, you lose a mineral dump.
Just think about it, Warping in two Stalkers as well as making two porbes already means you need to place a Pylon, when you are chronoboosting two Nexus's you are using up supply insanely quickly, 2 supply+100minerals on probes alone every 14seconds.
If you are also warping in additional sentries to survive then you also make it impossible to dump minerals via Tech,
It is a very tense situation, you live or die by forcefields + kiting...at points it is not possible to look at your base to place buildings while you are getting hit at the natural.
I'd love to see anyone in Alicias position use up that money as people think he should have here as well as try defend that natural, because that would be a feat
Everytime I've held that off I've always been floating minerals (500-1200+)--but I am also pretty awful compared to Losira or Alicia but it is not as easy as you think.
On April 29 2011 09:42 Jayrod wrote: Zerg has 100% safe builds but they dont involve expanding at 14 fking food before putting a pool down.
Zerg expands early because of larva, don't you understand that? Being able to mine from that expansion is just a bonus.
Anything that doesn't involve a fairly early hatch is going to be super weak against any type of early aggression (with the sole exception of 2gate and cannon rush). We also don't benefit from trying to hold a ramp since we don't have forcefields and our units are waaay better out in the open.
It's like saying toss is being greedy for building gateways.
I've been of the opinion for a couple months now that the 3gate sentry expand is simply bad vs zerg. I dunno, it never works out no matter how perfectly i execute it, if the Zerg is on his game he always seems to get ahead some way.
Jayrod, Morrow knows a lot more about the matchup than you do... so you are just going to get flamed for saying his opinion is "100% off-base and wrong." 100%? Really?
Others have mentioned this before, but Alicia lost because of bad sim-city, including forge and pylon placement. There are standard positions for these buildings that reduce the amount of forcefields necessary to defend. I'm not saying it's entirely easy to defend roach/ling, but practice against it 10 times and you will see it's quite doable. If you do cut corners though, you will get punished. Example: + Show Spoiler +
I think it may be as simple as having a couple cannons to guard your natural. We saw that Alicia actually had more probes than drones, and only 3 lower (32 to 29 i think?) after he sacrifices some probes to help kill the last roaches. As the Zerg was pumping army, I think the Protoss may need to cut a couple probes (if needed) to put down a couple of cannons.
I'm confused by the DT thing though... why would you go 1 base DT? I guess it's like you said though, he'll already have detection. Maybe he was just wondering around / theorycrafting / stating just a possibility rather than giving the "counter"? I didn't watch it (game 2?) ofc, so idk what he really said and what he meant.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on.
I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
On April 29 2011 11:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm confused by the DT thing though... why would you go 1 base DT? I guess it's like you said though, he'll already have detection. Maybe he was just wondering around / theorycrafting / stating just a possibility rather than giving the "counter"?
Yes DT hard counter the build Losira did. It's very unlikely he would have detection out by the time the dt got to his base, and either way the late lair means he's boned anywhere away from his spore crawler/s.That's all he was saying afaik.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on.
I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
I don't see your need to bash a player that is better than you and I doubt if you were in his position you could hold it off as well. I agree with what he said in that you do need a cannon earlier to hold this off. Their push simply comes with a ton of units and the mix of roaches with a ton of speedlings works wonders and can be reinforced quite quickly as speedlings are quite fast. The push leaves zerg with a ton of minerals as well and an easy way to get a third and maintain your advantage if you cause some damage. Also, in the Losira game alicia had the best forcefields you could possibly have in that scenario but still couldn't hold as it was a somewhat open space in the natural.
Answer is probably an earlier inbase forge to allow for quicker cannon production at natural I'm guessing.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on.
I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
I don't see your need to bash a player that is better than you and I doubt if you were in his position you could hold it off as well. I agree with what he said in that you do need a cannon earlier to hold this off. Their push simply comes with a ton of units and the mix of roaches with a ton of speedlings works wonders and can be reinforced quite quickly as speedlings are quite fast. The push leaves zerg with a ton of minerals as well and an easy way to get a third and maintain your advantage if you cause some damage. Also, in the Losira game alicia had the best forcefields you could possibly have in that scenario but still couldn't hold as it was a somewhat open space in the natural.
Answer is probably an earlier inbase forge to allow for quicker cannon production at natural I'm guessing.
Dude its not bashing, He is judging the strategy based on one game he played vs IdrA were Minigun forgot to pay attention to his army..
Can you read? He did not notice IdrAs units were at his natural and let IdrA surround the entire force without getting of one forcefield off. I WAS stating A FACT !!!
Yes DT hard counter the build Losira did. It's very unlikely he would have detection out by the time the dt got to his base, and either way the late lair means he's boned anywhere away from his spore crawler/s.That's all he was saying afaik.
Ah, thanks. I realize that by the time a DT gets in before any spores, it would be too late and a lot of damage can be done, but I was thinking he could make an Overseer. I didn't realize the Lair was so late.
Btw, thanks Morrow for your contributions
Edit: ^Agree, it's not bashing. It's criticism, although perhaps a bit disrespectful with the "LOL"
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on.
I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
Yea, I wasn't paying attention to my nat when he attacked. But 100% PERFECT forcefields would not have saved me, he had twice if not 3 times my army.
For people saying that a protoss is able to defend this, it also provides two crucial things.
1 - The Protoss must use FF to defend this rush, this is important for the Zerg as an army of full-energy Sentries is very dangerous which sets up for easy mid-game pushes either to take out an expansion or to do a full-out 6 gate.
2 - If the Zerg sees the Protoss is going to be able to defend it, the Zerg can opt to just bait some FF and then sit outside the Protoss base. Since the Zerg's third is going up, he can freely drone. If the Protoss goes too far to attack, the Zerg can run in to attack the Protoss forcing the Protoss to retreat whilst giving the Zerg an economic advantage through droning.
EDIT: It is important to keep some Roaches alive in this fleet as a pure Zergling force is not good enough to draw a Protoss back to their base. Zerglings are very easy to deal with by using Zealots or 1 or 2 FF. Roaches allow the Zerg to either kill a walling Zealot or Pylons to allow Zerglings to run through.
Morrow how can you say zerg has no 100% safe builds? all builds are safe if you have map control / good scouting and i think zerg has the best of that, overlords, map control from 2min plus , I would feel safe if i could scout the front every half min to see army count etc..
See, that's the thing -- they're only safe if you gain it yourself. It's not really the build order that gives you map control, or allows you to scout well, but the map, the decisions the players make, you opponent's strategies, etc. I think that's what he meant by no 100% safe builds, since it's what you do with the build to make sure you're ahead and "safe". After all, if there was a 100% safe build, Zerg "would" win 100% games. I think that's what he means, just a small difference in his definitions from yours.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
I feel bad that Morrow is being proven correct about his reason for not posting much in the strategy forum even after such brillaint posts.
People saying that Losira's build was clearly not "all-in" because he was ahead economically are missing the fact that he was all-in in a different way - behind on gas and tech, such that against the safer 3-gate expand into placing the forge at the natural into "3-base timing attack X" would kill him 100%. Not to mention he is also "all-in" in the sense that DTs kill him outright.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Idras build order is different than what losira did in g1 (cant watch g2 but im assuiming its the same thing). I saw the game you're referring to, idras build comes earlier and its basically an all-in
Then is any build that sacrifices economy an all-in? I'm getting really tired of how easy people these days consider a strategy an all-in. A poke is an all-in. Fast tech is an all-in. Why then isn't a big greedy econ build also an all-in? Is any Terran attack an all-in? What kind of a strategy is not all-in? They all sacrifice something and they are all susceptible to lose to something, like Losira's build, which was to pressure the Protoss and possibly win the game if the Protoss was too greedy. He was ahead in econ, so it was not an all-in, since again he was ahead in econ. As long as he traded equally, the situation would be equal or slightly favored for the Zerg. How would the "hard to transition" part of the all-in term be applied at all if he has a better economy than the Protoss? Also do you expect Terran and Protoss to just sit there the whole game and let the Zerg grow ahead of them?
I would argue exactly the point that "all-in" is the wrong term to be using. However everyone insists on using it, so I tried to define it in a different context in my previous post. What I meant by all-in would be any strategy which is not 100% safe against the entire range of possible openings your opponent could be doing.
Losira commits to his strategy (the 8 or 9 roaches plus 30 lings plus a delay in lair tech and gas) before he knows whether Alicia will be doing a super safe 3-gate expansion build (whereby he creates a wall-in on one side of his natural with either a forge or a gateway + pylon AND does not poke out to pressure without first scouting what the zerg is doing) OR a DT into expansion build.
Since both those of those builds either cripple or kill Losira's build, then yes, his build was an "all-in" of sorts, aka a risky build.
It was a highly refined, exploitative build by Losira which if Alicia had been playing non-risky himself would not have worked.
The problem with SC2 right now IMO is that there are too few openings in every matchup which allow you to pressure while also keeping your perceived opening range as wide as possible to your opponent. This means that to play safe in the early game is to also play predictable, such that if your opponent knows this about you then he can counter it blindly. So while you could be using an optimal opening in some single game scenario, the mere fact that there are so few safe openings make it possible for players to begin blindly countering said safe openings and gaining advantages that way.
On April 29 2011 15:09 sc2olorin wrote: Losira commits to his strategy (the 8 or 9 roaches plus 30 lings plus a delay in lair tech and gas) before he knows whether Alicia will be doing a super safe 3-gate expansion build (whereby he creates a wall-in on one side of his natural with either a forge or a gateway + pylon AND does not poke out to pressure without first scouting what the zerg is doing) OR a DT into expansion build.
I disagree. I don't think he committs to the attack before he makes the speedlings, and he doesn't make most of the speedlings until the roaches are halfway across the map. By then he's been constantly scouting the front of Alicia's base, seen that he's going 3 sentry expand and seen that he's not dropping any buildings on the low ground.
Can someone explain to me how a DT expand counters Losira's build? A DT expand has like 3 Sentries and a Zealot at their expo when that build hits, 3 DT's at that point might do some damage, but Zerg is going to win the base race when he has an army that is x5 as big as yours, regardless of the fact that your army can't be hit back
Protoss scout is so much easier than Zerg scout, how is that even hard to counter?? =.=
Because Protoss scouts are available at certain timings. You are pretty much blind after your first scouting Probes die till the 7min~ mark when you have hallucination, blind as in, if you move out you can die blind. Maybe it is possible if you chrono nonstop Warpgate tech AND hallucination, but it is cutting it.
It isn't really possible to scout this build before it hits, and it is going to be even harder come next patch with the Warpgate research time increase which will subsequently delay when hallucination is done.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
Losira worked in an evo chamber on a timing that would've stopped any DT harrass in the second game imo. DTs will stop the timing attack for sure; but it won't win you the game. Also, rushing for DTs will severely cut into your sentry numbers, which will be fairly obvious to the ling scout. Which is probably why he didn't do it in the first game.
I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
I'm certain that if you don't hit the perfect timings that Losira managed, you'd be behind, but I feel like it works out quite nicely if you do. Even if all you do is get some forcefield energy out of his sentries and you don't kill a single unit, you have excessive map control and your third should be supersafe assuming you dropped that evo chamber as well (just drop a spore at it when it finishes). I don't think it's possible to hold without delaying the stargate, as you can't quite support all 3 gates then until the transfer of probes is complete.
Also, I don't feel like you're positively placing yourself behind on tech. The Lair finishes at 10:30ish in the first game. I'm fairly certain that if you don't go through with the attack as hard as Losira did (you don't scout the same weaknesses), you can get another gas and get that earlier as well. Due to his massive map control and the fact that Alicia is all out of sentry energy he can safely drone for a good couple of minutes off 3base.
Like I wrote in the OP, it's up to the zerg to make the decision on whether to committ to the attack or not. He holds all the cards. He knows whether the protoss is placing his buildings on the low ground, he knows what units the protoss are making, and the protoss is gonna have to start assuming that this attack is coming. He has to make units constantly out of 3 gates until he has a decent army out; no skipping units to make earlier tech, or he might just be dead to this timing attack. Going through with the timing attack might not always be a good idea; but it's an awesome way to punish a protoss that cuts corners or doesn't semi-walloff.
Losira didn't have to worry about DTs since he saw a bunch of sentries, which ate up Alicia's gas and didn't leave any for a DT rush. That's not particularly useful for other games, but it's important to consider for these two. It's entirely possible that Losira either did the build as a reaction to seeing sentries and bad simcity (as opposed to thinks just kind of working out), or that he prepared the build to counter Alicia.
Either way, just because it worked, and even if it was 100% reaction and not a coin flip, that doesn't mean it's a standard build that we can all start using regularly in our ZvPs.
This isn't the future of zvp. This roach/ling attack I have seen many times on idra's stream, done it many times myself, seen other zergs do it in the past few months. I was surprised at how artosis/tasteless said it was a "new" build. I mean I agree with what morrow said, alicia just played it bad. Forge in the main, didn't even make a cannon. FF's were great but just handled it poorly.
Wouldn't look too much into it being the "future" of zvp thats for sure.
Thanks for bringing my attention to this match, truthless. Truly a worthwhile watch! Alicia showcases incredible micro, Losia incredible aggression. Zergs who thought their timing was the so-called "300/200" armies off a lategame macro fight where they kill a portion of the Protoss army and remacro the right units as their next army, take some notes! It might relieve some stress!
Timings against the 3gate expand using roaches and lings are stronger than previously realized (except maybe EU server? yeah?) and WOW Losira just keeps pounding until his bloodied opponent cannot block the punches.
On April 29 2011 16:25 blade55555 wrote: This isn't the future of zvp. This roach/ling attack I have seen many times on idra's stream, done it many times myself, seen other zergs do it in the past few months. I was surprised at how artosis/tasteless said it was a "new" build. I mean I agree with what morrow said, alicia just played it bad. Forge in the main, didn't even make a cannon. FF's were great but just handled it poorly.
Wouldn't look too much into it being the "future" of zvp thats for sure.
1) Like I edited in, I would change the topic if I could. It seems to be pulling people away from discussing the actual build and counterbuilds.
2) I think Idra does a slightly less economic version that hits a bit earlier and is much more all-in. Correct me if I'm wrong though, by linking me to some game he used the same timings. Or feel free to provide a replay of you doing it yourself.
On April 29 2011 15:41 mytent wrote: High level masters here.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing.
On April 29 2011 15:41 mytent wrote: High level masters here.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing.
On April 29 2011 15:41 mytent wrote: High level masters here.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing.
IIRC this build crushes any sort of 1 base all in as you get Roaches early enough to delay getting rolled over and then ling reinforcements mop up everything else- especially if you wait until the last moment to cancel the Nexus. I agree though, if you do manage to trade (or even have a handful of units left over, without sacrificing probes), you're usually in a better spot than most give credit for. It's super important to scout as soon as possible after the attack and apply pressure while pumping econ.
On April 29 2011 15:41 mytent wrote: High level masters here.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
Welcome to 4gate nexus cancel. Zergs have learned to deal with all sorts of xgate allins/timing pushes, Protoss is going to learn to deal with this. Often it feels like you're still behind anyway after holding one a rush like this, but your opponent does actually have to sacrifice a lot to get it out at the right timing.
I think he says it because you lose all ability to be offensive after it, you have to use virtually every forcefield to stop the rush and you are guaranteed to lose sentries, then you have also delayed tech by 2-3mins easily on top of being in an uncomfortable position when wanting to take a third. I don't know if you have experienced it, but even after defending it, you don't feel you are in a good position at all.
Regarding your all-ins/timing pushes, at least most of those all-ins have some ability to be scouted--and all have the ability to be read by some way by your opponents, enough to make a judgement call, this all-in hits before Protoss has any ability to scout it at all.
Too early to be throwing around "the future" or "balance", but this isn't a joke of a build to hold, might mean two cannons at your natural will become standard, who knows.
Ive been doing this since the end of beta. I had wins off of whitera and huk with this cheesy build during beta. really really cheesy strategy and is terrible vs good building placements + forcefields.
ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals.
This build is the reason I go 3-gate DT expand. You can both hold and put pressure back on your opponent, and since the lair is pretty late you will ATLEAST deny the third base from going up.
I dont get why people put down on Alicias play. He played really well on both maps and couldnt do shit unless he knew what was coming. How are you supposed to afford a gateway to wall off when you've layed down your Stargate and you also need to produce units? The timing of this zerg pressure is very good vs a 3-gate sentry expand.
I don't agree with this build being "allinish" I don't agree with this build "being used all the time forever"
How attacking after 2 base saturation is allinish ? People are just brainwashed by the bad zerg mindset (being aggressive = allin and expanding and droning = cool). How much protoss and terran builds are 2 base build->pressure/attack then expand ? Yeah, 90% of P and T builds. So why when a zerg does it it's an allin ?
About the "being used forever". Yes, this is not new, but no, this is not often used (mainly because it's not cool enough to attack, to be a man you must expand and mAcRo like a MAN) This mindset is killing zergs. This build should be the standard ZvP build. Every zerg should use that build every game or so, because it's simply the most effective and safer build you can do. You're guaranteed to do some damage (or even kill the P) while being able to take a reasonable fast 3rd. Yes, you tech slower than most builds, but is this a problem ? Just ask yourself : what am I doing with my fast tech as zerg ? Most of the time, nothing. So delaying it is not a problem.
Just compare with broodwar, where protosses must play an plan their builds with the fear of a bust. This cause a lot of restrictions to them. Restrictions that don't exist yet in sc2 because zergs just want to macro, so protosses know they can just do whatever they want. If this build was standard and used very often, the whole protoss side of the matchup would have to adapt in a way that will in any case be favorable to zergs.
This build has only upsides when you compare it to any other zerg vP builds. It's a perfect mix between macro and aggression. You should read Losira's interview after the game, it's like "I didn't lost any game during practice so I entered this match very confident" Perhaps in the future this build will be regarded as terrible. But in the current state of the game this build is a necessity for the matchup to evolve to something more zerg friendly.
Losira attacks before 2 base saturation (he gets his dronecount to 34 / 33 (if he gets the safety evo) ) so this build is semi allin, it definitely has to do some damage.
also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first.
when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably.
i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc)
On April 29 2011 17:10 billyX333 wrote: Ive been doing this since the end of beta. I had wins off of whitera and huk with this cheesy build during beta. really really cheesy strategy and is terrible vs good building placements + forcefields.
ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals.
I don't think it's cheesy at all the way Losira does it. He's ahead on workers, he's taking his third before his opponents second is even saturated and has gas running, he has two queens out with a third on the way for his third base, he has Lair on the way by the time the attack gets cut off, etc.
I do recognize that some of the roach/ling early attacks are cheesy. Some are made off 1base. Some are made by cutting drones. But not all are. This particular version is incredibly refined with some very well practiced timings. It's sort of like Alicia's 3gate pressure expand in PvT, in that you aren't actually giving up any economy but still putting high pressure on your opponent to make sure he isn't cutting corners to get ahead.
Note that I know that as a zerg, you always give up economy to make an army, but what I mean is that Losira is still ahead in workers when he decides to make that army. It's not like he cut drones at 20 and went all-in. He has 35 workers when he decides to start making his roaches and lings.
This is why we are getting our 33 second zealots back since it makes him pool first. Alicia also failed to block expo which I feel is necessary these days.
On April 29 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote: Losira attacks before 2 base saturation (he gets his dronecount to 34 / 33 (if he gets the safety evo) ) so this build is semi allin, it definitely has to do some damage.
also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first.
when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably.
i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc)
He also attacks before Alicia has full 2 base saturation. Less probes on the field than drones actually. You're right that it definately has to do some damage if he commits to it fully, but since he has full scouting he can decide not to go through with it if the protoss walls off and drops cannons. He can drop his 3rd and get lair instead, and get drones instead of all those lings (I'll give you the roaches, since they have to be made around 6:30, and the Protoss might wall off and cannon up after they're made).
Also, his voidray was out when the attack hit. The supplycap did hurt him a bit since he wasn't able to get out as many gateway units, but it didn't affect his voidray really. It was just a bad rally as you said. In fact, if he had been supplyblocked longer it might not have sailed off to the XNT
I do have a question on how your friend held it on XNC though; was his natural as "clean" as Alicia's? Or was he semi-walling and adding cannons beyond the first?
On April 29 2011 17:10 billyX333 wrote: Ive been doing this since the end of beta. I had wins off of whitera and huk with this cheesy build during beta. really really cheesy strategy and is terrible vs good building placements + forcefields.
ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals.
I don't think it's cheesy at all the way Losira does it. He's ahead on workers, he's taking his third before his opponents second is even saturated and has gas running, he has two queens out with a third on the way for his third base, he has Lair on the way by the time the attack gets cut off, etc.
I do recognize that some of the roach/ling early attacks are cheesy. Some are made off 1base. Some are made by cutting drones. But not all are. This particular version is incredibly refined with some very well practiced timings. It's sort of like Alicia's 3gate pressure expand in PvT, in that you aren't actually giving up any economy but still putting high pressure on your opponent to make sure he isn't cutting corners to get ahead.
Note that I know that as a zerg, you always give up economy to make an army, but what I mean is that Losira is still ahead in workers when he decides to make that army. It's not like he cut drones at 20 and went all-in. He has 35 workers when he decides to start making his roaches and lings.
Wow. seriously, why do you assume you knew how I did this. I spent weeks tinkering with this build. I mapped this build out in such detail with so many different variations during the end of beta. I preferred the 2 gases + 32-34 mineral mining drones because it was least all in and had speedroach tech. Of course it gets ahead of the protoss in workers. This build is as old as the dinosaurs and resurfaced during the +1 range roach buff.
I did this build literally for HUNDREDS of games vs protoss during the end of beta and during retail. This build does not work if your opponent creates a wall in at the natural with many sentries and opens robos. In fact, 3gate expand with robo crushes this build as long as you place your buildings at your natural.
On April 29 2011 17:43 tdt wrote: This is why we are getting our 33 second zealots back since it makes him pool first. Alicia also failed to block expo which I feel is necessary these days.
On April 29 2011 17:10 billyX333 wrote: Ive been doing this since the end of beta. I had wins off of whitera and huk with this cheesy build during beta. really really cheesy strategy and is terrible vs good building placements + forcefields.
ive done essentially every single variation of the roach + speedling rush. Sometimes speed roach and 2nd expo behind it or build lots of slow roaches early and reinforce with lings constantly. Its only good on maps with wide open naturals.
I don't think it's cheesy at all the way Losira does it. He's ahead on workers, he's taking his third before his opponents second is even saturated and has gas running, he has two queens out with a third on the way for his third base, he has Lair on the way by the time the attack gets cut off, etc.
I do recognize that some of the roach/ling early attacks are cheesy. Some are made off 1base. Some are made by cutting drones. But not all are. This particular version is incredibly refined with some very well practiced timings. It's sort of like Alicia's 3gate pressure expand in PvT, in that you aren't actually giving up any economy but still putting high pressure on your opponent to make sure he isn't cutting corners to get ahead.
Note that I know that as a zerg, you always give up economy to make an army, but what I mean is that Losira is still ahead in workers when he decides to make that army. It's not like he cut drones at 20 and went all-in. He has 35 workers when he decides to start making his roaches and lings.
Wow. seriously, why do you assume you knew how I did this. I spent weeks tinkering with this build. I mapped this build out in such detail with so many different variations during the end of beta. I preferred the 2 gases + 32-34 mineral mining drones because it was least all in and had speedroach tech. Of course it gets ahead of the protoss in workers. This build is as old as the dinosaurs and resurfaced during the +1 range roach buff.
I did this build literally for HUNDREDS of games vs protoss during the end of beta and during retail.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I never meant to imply that I knew how you did it. I just don't think Losira's build was cheesy at all, and it sounded like you did, so I used those other examples as what I might consider cheesy, purely for contrast, not as a means of describing what you might've done.
Losira saw a weakness in the open natural and exploited it with a very well timed out build. That's all imo.
On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote: I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets
protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse
and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really...
this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make
heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself
I see your point and I kind of agree with some of it. You can't argue that he's not changing the metagame though. Like I said before, he's setting himself up with the option of doing this until ~6:30, at which point he decides whether to go through with it or not. He has full map control at this point and can easily decide whether or not to try and bust Alicia.
If he had seen a forge+cannon+4th gateway wall-off on the low ground, I doubt we would've seen the same kind of reaction from Losira. It's hard to know for sure of course, maybe he just felt that confident he could bust Alicia. But my point is that the fact that such a refined build that instantly kills a Protoss that "cuts corners", without truly sacrificing anything in the early game, is a good thing. It would destroy any protoss going for the 4gate nexus-cancel for one thing, and that alone is reason enough to be happy.
Note that until 6:30, the only things he's really sacrificed from a standard speedling opening is that he got his speed a little later, and he dropped a roach warren (something most zerg do these days regardless). It's not until 6:30, when he cuts drones and makes those 8 roaches because he scouts an open natural, that he commits to the attack. Up until then it's a standard speedling opening build with some minor tweaks that gives him the option of punishing the protoss. Having that option without sacrificing anything significant is crucial for the metagame imho.
edit: Also, when talking about risks, this game is really all about risk vs reward. You can't really win any games without taking any risks. I wouldn't call any strategy supersafe, in that it might not lead to you losing the game. If some strategy had a 100% winrate, everyone would use it. There are always risks, some greater, some smaller. Sure, going 3gate sentry expand with a forge+cannon on the low ground is quite possibly as safe as you can be from being killed straight up, you're still taking another sort of risk with that; you're telling your enemy that you aren't going to be attacking him for a while, and that allows him to take greater risks (for greater rewards later on) that he otherwise would not.
Morrow and Minigun and Darkforce hit the nail on the head pretty well, but then again they are all pros and great at their races lol. I think this build really is not risky almost whatsoever, i mean theres some small things he risks but there so small compared to the damage he can cause thats important damage like kill sentries, nexus cancel, supply cap you can almost pay the attack off and then some. As long as you dont die to a proxy stargate or a dt managing to sneak into your base and if you can accomplish on one of those things fully you dont really come out behind i wouldnt think.
Its just such a good refined build made to punish protoss for being greedy, being unprepared, and if the player isnt very good at "crisis management" it can be even a game ender. We all know despite amazing FFs by Alicia he did a couple things wrong like the forge placement and all it really takes is one mistake for this build to be really effective.
Not to mention when you think about it if LosirA focuses more on probes but doesnt get many of the sentries that is almost better in the long run. When you take the time that Alicia had to spend to make those probes for the expo thats important and valuable time and chrono boosts invested for the boom in economy Alicia is trying to obtain and by slowing that process down you cripple the amount of options by a huge number that the protoss can really choose after the engagement. If he tries to macro heavy to make up for it Losira almost had 3 bases done by the time the attack was over and he can make drones way faster even if Alicia chrono boosts nonstop thus putting LosirA more ahead. If Alicia decides to counter by the time he gets to LosirAs base he will be more than prepared and still be able to be ahead in the economy because his production ability will be far superior to Alicias.
Obviously this "style" has been used before many times by other players but LosirA really got down to the math of it and knew all possible outcomes and how to approach them and knew what he had to do to come out ahead and in the end thats all that matters.
On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote: I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets
protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse
and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really...
this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make
heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself
I guess cutting corners is more right than anything, I have noticed my self getting pretty greedy these days with my 3gate expo >_>
Though you could have left out where you underhandedly call Alicia bad, it is easy to cut corners as Protoss, but when you get punished for them it looks worse than it really is--at least in the early game where one bad forcefield can spiral out of control. Given his position, I doubt there would be many players who could have handled it much better than he could, sans maybe MC. He has played amazingly well against other players (i.e MVP, his recent PvTs against MKP and Nada were very well executed).
Whenever Protoss screws up in the early game they look like massive scrubs, if you were to discount everyone who looked like they did poorly as Toss, then the only Toss you could actually call good would be MC. I doubt you could ever find a replay where a Protoss ever losses to this build "gracefully", you either hold it off or fail miserably
If you watch Kiwikaki vs Idra, in the span of two seconds Kiwikaki goes from fine to dead, in that small amount of time he needed to land some of the best forcefields ever, but didn't quite manage it, but that doesn't mean he is bad...unless you also think we should rethink him as a "solid and great Protoss player"
On April 29 2011 16:00 truthless wrote: I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
there are differnt types of 3warpgate expansions. 1 3warpgate expand is alot different from another. so much depends on how greedy they are with it. but the original 3warpgate expand with forge in natural and cannon behind it is as safe as its gets
protosses has been using the medigame to their advantage by saying, hey zerg never allins me so i can go and fake push every single game, i can delay my forge 10 seconds, or i can delay my next wave of stalkers just to get my stargate quicker. these little timings is called cutting corners to get ahead unless zerg actually allins on you. and this is exactly how alicia played it, but not only that, he macroed poorly and executed even worse
and losiras build is using the "new" medigame if i can call it that where he says, ok protosses (and alicia) cuts corners these days cause we havent been allining them alot. so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
this series i saw both take risks both games, by playing mindgames instead of playing it safe. thats why im telling you guys that this thread shouldnt be called "future of pvz" or so. you should just be impressed by losiras play the way he predicted the toss to cut corners (i dont think he predicted alicia to execute poorly so it worked alot better than he thought i think) and you should rethink alicia as a player if you think hes this solid and great protoss user really...
this build losira did has clear weaknesses and i dont blame him for it and thats the only point i wanted to make
heres a tip for most of u who watched zvp. when u see toss 3warpgate expo and follow up with a stargate and rallys his first voidray to zergs 3rd base instead of moving it in the direct path to the zerg (so you can catch possible roach attacks) it just means hes playing risky. also another thing to point out if toss 3warpgate expands and puts his forge in his main hes being alittle risky, but more so he puts it there so zerg cant scout it, which gives zerg the impression of a possible cancel nexus into 4-5gates, which the "counter" to that is exactly what losira did, mass units like crazy. basically alicia encouraged him both games to mass units and then he wasnt ready or couldnt even figure out himself that it was coming, twice... alicia didnt "force" zerg to mass units to this extend but he invited him to do it, without even knowing he was. losira was just a much better player than alicia in every way this series. and i think these games had really much to do with them as players rather than the matchup itself
I guess cutting corners is more right than anything, I have noticed my self getting pretty greedy these days with my 3gate expo >_>
Though you could have left out where you underhandedly call Alicia bad, it is easy to cut corners as Protoss, but when you get punished for them it looks worse than it really is--at least in the early game where one bad forcefield can spiral out of control. Given his position, I doubt there would be many players who could have handled it much better than he could, sans maybe MC. He has played amazingly well against other players (i.e MVP, his recent PvTs against MKP and Nada were very well executed).
Whenever Protoss screws up in the early game they look like massive scrubs, if you were to discount everyone who looked like they did poorly as Toss, then the only Toss you could actually call good would be MC. I doubt you could ever find a replay where a Protoss ever losses to this build "gracefully", you either hold it off or fail miserably
If you watch Kiwikaki vs Idra, in the span of two seconds Kiwikaki goes from fine to dead. Unless you also think we should rethink him as a "solid and great Protoss player"
i was talking about his pvz in this series not him as player in whole :p ive been impressed by his pvt really so
and yes kiwikaki is not a solid and great player. when i say great player i talk about the level of losira, mc, mvp and those guys. if you wanna discuss strategy, the games you analyse should have players that play perfect or near perfect. and i think losira vs alicia series was not a good example of showing the potential of the build
On April 29 2011 18:10 truthless wrote: I see your point and I kind of agree with some of it. You can't argue that he's not changing the metagame though. Like I said before, he's setting himself up with the option of doing this until ~6:30, at which point he decides whether to go through with it or not. He has full map control at this point and can easily decide whether or not to try and bust Alicia.
If he had seen a forge+cannon+4th gateway wall-off on the low ground, I doubt we would've seen the same kind of reaction from Losira. It's hard to know for sure of course, maybe he just felt that confident he could bust Alicia. But my point is that the fact that such a refined build that instantly kills a Protoss that "cuts corners", without truly sacrificing anything in the early game, is a good thing. It would destroy any protoss going for the 4gate nexus-cancel for one thing, and that alone is reason enough to be happy.
Note that until 6:30, the only things he's really sacrificed from a standard speedling opening is that he got his speed a little later, and he dropped a roach warren (something most zerg do these days regardless). It's not until 6:30, when he cuts drones and makes those 8 roaches because he scouts an open natural, that he commits to the attack. Up until then it's a standard speedling opening build with some minor tweaks that gives him the option of punishing the protoss. Having that option without sacrificing anything significant is crucial for the metagame imho.
The way you speak about the build and how little sacrifice there is, I guess it could be the "future of PvZ", in a very loose sense, the future being the Zerg just goes and kills Protoss if they ever think about being greedy
i was talking about his pvz in this series not him as player in whole ive been impressed by his pvt really so
and yes kiwikaki is not a solid and great player. when i say great player i talk about the level of losira, mc, mvp and those guys. if you wanna discuss strategy, the games you analyse should have players that play perfect or near perfect. and i think losira vs alicia series was not a good example of showing the potential of the build
and solid is something i rarely see in sc2
High standards ;o, to each his own. I guess my own level of "solid and good" falls more in line where it includes people you like, idra,kiwi,nani etc 0o
Can't really call someone who had a 5-0 winrate against zerg beating players like Nestea, Zenio and Losira bad at PvZ imo He simply took some risks in these two games and Losira punished him brutally for it. Which is great imo - zerg need to be better at punishing risktakers, and not just sit on their lazy asses and macro macro macro.
It's why I'm so wary of going forge fast expand in PvZ, even on maps like Tal'darim Altar. It's becoming more and more popular of punishing that by just baneling-busting the forge and streaming lings in.
I have tried couple of games of this against a friend yesterday and although both of us are not the skill level these players were he found an easy way to stop this. He attacks me with 3 gates before I can bring my 1st batch of roaches to the field and then keeps FF my ramp while he takes out the expansion.
What Losira does he makes 4 lings and that is his whole force until he has (late) Roach warren finished and only then starts roaches followed by lings. Protoss going for 3 gate rush after faking a nexus is going to crush this, especially on smaller maps (he beat me on Metalopolis close air positions). Same as this Losira rush tries to use a certain timing to crush the toss, toss can use a timing to frack up the zerg that is trying to do this.
solid build means it has potential to end up equal or ahead or slightly behind vs anything the opponent does assuming both plays perfect or near perfect.
if you open with a solid build it means your ignoring the current medigame and who your playing against. you simply just play by the rules of all possibilities. the key is to scout to trim down possibilities and then you need sick preparation and plans for all scenarios possible
even if i look at the best players in the world they arent even playing like this more than 50% of their games simply because you cant in sc2 or they have not figured out yet how to do it. i promise you a player like idra wouldnt be playing non-solid in zvp every time i tune in to his stream if there was a possibility to do that in zvp. i bet he has tried to figure it out and find the solid for hundreds or even thousands of zvp games just to find it. but now it seems like all top zvp players have given up on trying to play solid because it usually puts you very behind or you die to some rush
so take a proper 3warpgate expo for example. its solid. worst case scenario is that zerg droned up more than is possible if he was following the rules so toss ends up slightly behind
On April 29 2011 18:47 -Archangel- wrote: I have tried couple of games of this against a friend yesterday and although both of us are not the skill level these players were he found an easy way to stop this. He attacks me with 3 gates before I can bring my 1st batch of roaches to the field and then keeps FF my ramp while he takes out the expansion.
What Losira does he makes 4 lings and that is his whole force until he has (late) Roach warren finished and only then starts roaches followed by lings. Protoss going for 3 gate rush after faking a nexus is going to crush this, especially on smaller maps (he beat me on Metalopolis close air positions). Same as this Losira rush tries to use a certain timing to crush the toss, toss can use a timing to frack up the zerg that is trying to do this.
Sort of, but you can't just blindly be doing the build of course. That's the lovely part about it; you're not blind, since you have map control with the speedlings. The protoss is. He doesn't know if you have more than just those 4 speedlings. For all he knows he could be walking out into the middle of the map with 3 sentries and a zealot when there's 20 speedlings out. No doubt your friend knew what build you were going to do and used that against you.
Otherwise, the timings don't really add up. I mean, a 3gate push comes around 5:45 at the earliest. By then you should've scouted him moving out around 5:00-5:30 with a couple of units and a probe, plenty of time to respond to a regular 3-4 gate push. At this point you can just abandon your plan to do the 7:30 attack and mass speedlings to respond to the aggression. If you're able to trap those units in the middle of the map, you're ahead.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I didnt see your post earlier, i guess i could have just agreed with you instead of writing a post myself =)
Really, people should not assume too much just because a strat worked in one bo3.
Also, even if you get spore crawlers in time, you are still really late on your t2 tech, so you cant take a third any time soon and protoss has total mapcontrol with his DTs.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I didnt see your post earlier, i guess i could have just agreed with you instead of writing a post myself =)
Really, people should not assume too much just because a strat worked in one bo3.
Also, even if you get spore crawlers in time, you are still really late on your t2 tech, so you cant take a third any time soon and protoss has total mapcontrol with his DTs.
I still don't understand how you are behind.
I mean, a DT expand has less units than a 3gate expand, in that same situation how do you stop yourself from getting overrun with just 3 DT's (or 2 if one is sent to the Zergs base), 3-2 Sentries, few Zealots and possibly a cannon?
With 8-9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, you can flood the Toss's natural and kill everything, even if there are DT's, how is he even going to expand again after that? It doesn't matter if you take losses from the DT's, as long as you are stopping that expo you have pretty much won
He would obviously have dropped the spore if he didn't see as many sentries as he saw, and probably dropped the evo chamber in the first game as well if he hadn't seen the obvious sentry expand. But that's just my read on the game. He's not any more vulnerable to DTs than any other speedling expand would be imo.
Personally I would probably opt to go for the Lair if I saw that as well, assuming it's either a DT expand or a Stargate build. That's sort of what I mentioned in my OP; that DT expanding seems to be the only straight-up counter to this opening, other than excellent forcefield play off a 3gate sentry expand together with good building placement on the low ground (removing the possibility for aggression early on).
On artosis's stream today he said either void ray expansion or dt expansion, i think if yoou could chrono out 2 void rays and pump out units off of 2 gates you can defenetly hold off this kind of pressure with minimal damage. Also if they are going this build would a cannon expand be viable (even if not a 16 nexus cannon expand but maybe a later one after a gateway or 2) I think a decent number of cannons could easily hold this off and help transition into the mid gaame.
Even before I saw losira do this build yesterday it must have already been somewhat popular as i lost 3 games in a row to pretty much the exact same strategy after doing a sentry expand. So i dont even think its the future of PVZ i think it is already here.
On April 29 2011 20:28 Executor1 wrote: On artosis's stream today he said either void ray expansion or dt expansion, i think if yoou could chrono out 2 void rays and pump out units off of 2 gates you can defenetly hold off this kind of pressure with minimal damage. Also if they are going this build would a cannon expand be viable (even if not a 16 nexus cannon expand but maybe a later one after a gateway or 2) I think a decent number of cannons could easily hold this off and help transition into the mid gaame.
Even before I saw losira do this build yesterday it must have already been somewhat popular as i lost 3 games in a row to pretty much the exact same strategy after doing a sentry expand. So i dont even think its the future of PVZ i think it is already here.
The DT expansion he was doing would have died long before the DT's actually came out. He dropped his Dark shrine like 7mins in, this attack hits somewhere like 7:30min~? Voidray expand with 2 rays and 2gates seems good though.
There are around 9 Roaches that come out, not sure if a Cannon expansion is that strong against it, it will definitely come down to timings, that is for sure, but on maps where cannon expos can be done, this build isn't that good anyway because there is a fairly narrow choke area
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
Honestly i think your being pretty stubborn about this and may have a twisted view on the ZVP matchup similair to Idra. Youve become so frusterated with it that you refuse to beleive anything could work against such a safe build especially when youve spent alot of time figuring it out yourself only to get more frusterated. Zergs frusteration over the past few months in the ZVP matchup is understandable but dont let it cloud your judgement on new and interesting builds. Also 2 gate DT defenetly doesnt kill this build 100% ive seen people try it and you can totally get your evo chamber up in time (artosis tried it on his stream today). I think you are a great player but dont let your frusterations cloud your judgement this build is viable and i think its far less risky then droning up like a mad man and hoping P doesnt apply pressure. Thats just my 2 cents obviously i am not where near your skill level but that doesnt mean that i cant look at this objectively and see that its a viable build that shouldnt just be dismissed as risky
Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
On April 29 2011 17:31 DarKFoRcE wrote: Losira attacks before 2 base saturation (he gets his dronecount to 34 / 33 (if he gets the safety evo) ) so this build is semi allin, it definitely has to do some damage.
also alicia was supplyblocked on his voidray in game 2 when there was chronoboost running on the stargate, had this not happened, he would have had his voidray out before losiras attack hit. he also had his voidray rallied to the watchtower or something, so it was out of position at first.
when zerg goes for this build, alot comes down to super small things, like if P loses a few seconds in his build somewhere, he just dies. same for zerg, for he doesnt time things perfectly, the attack fails pretty miserably.
i have played ~10 games with this build against a practise partner yesterday, and even on XNC (which has closer rush distance) he was able to hold it a few times (depending on how good FFs where / whether he was very greedy etc)
well im sure after 10 games of doing the same build your practice partner would eventually wise up to it. Im not saying its an opening that should be used every single game but i would say it is defenetly a very good opening zergs should keep in their arsenal.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
This. Alicia's response was in no way optimal. This is not a revolutionizing build. It will not have a big impact on PvZ.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
qft
was a pretty standard roach ling push, only new thing (for me) was the 1 drone on gas and thus late speed
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
Honestly i think your being pretty stubborn about this and may have a twisted view on the ZVP matchup similair to Idra. Youve become so frusterated with it that you refuse to beleive anything could work against such a safe build especially when youve spent alot of time figuring it out yourself only to get more frusterated. Zergs frusteration over the past few months in the ZVP matchup is understandable but dont let it cloud your judgement on new and interesting builds. Also 2 gate DT defenetly doesnt kill this build 100% ive seen people try it and you can totally get your evo chamber up in time (artosis tried it on his stream today). I think you are a great player but dont let your frusterations cloud your judgement this build is viable and i think its far less risky then droning up like a mad man and hoping P doesnt apply pressure. Thats just my 2 cents obviously i am not where near your skill level but that doesnt mean that i cant look at this objectively and see that its a viable build that shouldnt just be dismissed as risky
I'm sorry but you don't understand a thing about what Morrow is saying. You should listen to his argument and argue with him, not trying to negate everything he says because he is zerg. On the other side, you have no clue about zerg's point of view in this match up.
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs because, obviously, he will not have any overseer in time AND the protoss will gain total map control with his DT for a certain time. Until then, the protoss is free to abuse, not to mention he have an economical advantage because the build is semi all in and stop drone prod.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
I'm just not a huge fan of going straight for DTs after going forge first. They arrive too late
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice (by mapcontrol I mean the ability to deny Thirds and grab towers--you can't exactly stop the Tsunami of lings from doing whatever they want), but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>?
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>?
Put the DT in front of zerg base (or even inside the base if there is no spore), contain, kill units as soon as they comes out or the base ? Who said you had to wait with your 3 dt before you nexus. The roach prod start around 6:30 with the build losira did.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
2gate DT doesn't kill this build 100% if you're bad, it's true, because Morrow never said you were going to kill the zerg with your DTs. You just crush the attack with the DTs
How do you crush the attack when you have a Zealot, Stalker, maybe 2-3 Sentries and 3 DT's vs 9 Roaches + a Ton of lings >_>?
Put the DT in front of zerg base (or even inside the base if there is no spore), contain, kill units as soon as they comes out or the base ? Who said you had to wait with your 3 dt before you nexus. The roach prod start around 6:30 with the build losira did.
There is no way you can get DT's out before 6:30, I think the best timing is somewhere around 6:40~ IF you can drop the Cyber/Twilight/DT in succession without missing a beat on a 9-10 gate, but that is SUPER easy to spot, first by the insanely early gas and second by the fact that Toss has 1-2 units as he is expanding---IIRC, I don't even think you have the money to expand at that point either
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
I find it amazing the amount of people calling alicia bad in here, over the last couple of months i think he has proved to be the #2 protoss in the world. Even with that being the case i said before the match i expected losira to beat him, just because losira is that good. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
On April 29 2011 06:26 Xapti wrote: Anyway, with regards to PvZ and these games, I think that protoss should be getting hallucination before warp gate if they aren't planning to attack, and should only get warp gate for feinted attacks, careful pressure, or 4WG style attack. This is especially the case now, assuming that the 1.33 patch changes will stick, making warp gates considerably less-better to gateways in comparison, in addition to the longer time to get them. With an early hallucinated scout you can spot what they are up to and react accordingly.
Hallucination costs energy. If you research hallu before warp, how many sentries do you think the Protoss will have ? And assuming there's a sentry with enough energy for a hallu, do you think it's wise to spend it into a hallu when a rush may be knocking around your door and require a critical force-field ?
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's
If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you.
If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings
If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build.
IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
other things: -) if you build the canon a little earlier and better protected than Alicia did you hold it easier (he actually didnt die to the rush, and wasnt that far behind...) -) If you have seen HuK vs JulyZerg on Crossfire, HuK did a 3gate expand, but then chronoboosted all of his warpgates to get extra stalkers and rush JulyZerg. If Alicia would have tried to go for this kind of pressure right after the expo, he would have been in great shape against the rush, so this is another build how to play against this rush (maybe the reason HuK did this: you're safe against this recently extremly popular rush, and if Zerg doesnt go for it, you can attack yourself) -) we have seen 2games at this high level of play currently, all we know is that this build can beat a 3gate expand and a fast void ray expand, it's not like those were the only available Protoss openings for a macro game and well to be fair: 1base Protoss play can also beat any kind of Zerg expand, it's not like there should be builds that garantee you to get an expansion without taking any risks as any race
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's
If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you.
If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings
If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build.
IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
Something like that. I screwed up a bit, but I think you can see that the timings work out to prevent the rush. It'll be blatantly obvious that you're going DT's, but that's sort of the thing with DT expand builds; force the zerg to get Lair before he can get a third. They're not so focused about dealing damage with the DTs as they are on getting map control and denying hatch-tiered aggression.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out.
On April 29 2011 20:54 Liquid`HayprO wrote: very interesting, but this opening is not new. its a common allin/anti allin build in zvp. losira is just so good, and alicia seemed very nervous.
I know that the roach/ling early pressure/allin isn't new. I was just a bit captivated by how nicely Losira's timings lined up with the Protoss timings. I've never seen that level of minute planning from a zerg in the early game before. The roach warren completed exactly in time for him to decide on whether to go through with his attack or not, the ling speed was delayed to give him a faster 2nd hatch and queen, and yet he has ling speed out at the 5 minute mark which is perfectly timed in case he has to make mass speedlings to respond to an early pressure build. It just all felt very solidly timed out to match with the Protoss timings to me.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's
If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you.
If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings
If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build.
IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
Something like that. I screwed up a bit, but I think you can see that the timings work out to prevent the rush. It'll be blatantly obvious that you're going DT's, but that's sort of the thing with DT expand builds; force the zerg to get Lair before he can get a third. They're not so focused about dealing damage with the DTs as they are on getting map control and denying hatch-tiered aggression.
I don't see how that counters this at all. That is just rushing DT"s and expanding, he can spot your DT's from a mile away...long before he ever has to commit to anything, at worst he just has an earlier roach warren.
Your build also has 1 Zealot when you drop your forge/gateway/Nexus on top of dropping the twilight whilst the drone is still in your base and you only have 26 probes 8mins on top of only being able to afford 1 DT at 6:40~, it takes you an entire minute to get the money for all three DT's after warping in your first one-- something like this just isn't reasonable, how do you even expand if the Zerg has 6+ lings?
The fake 3gate expos/DT expand is what most people do, it is harder to spot, but it still dies. Again, this build counters any form of DT, the super early rushes you can see before you even hit whilst the delayed DT builds will die to the shear number of units.
People really need to stop saying DT expands counter this, because it doesn't. It only counters it if the Zerg is on auto-drive and just executes the build order blindly--which if the Toss is doing fake 3gate expo/DT he will win anyway -__-
Even DarkForce commented and said it was solid, the Twilight council cannot go down at 4mins, unless you proxy your second pylon, to which darkforce even said, on maps like Xel'Naga it will get found by 2 scouting lings, and it sets Zerg off when there is no second pylon in base. You have to deny the scouting delaying the council till around 4:20-40, if you go sentry first and he evades you, he can even delay until 5mins~. But again, Roach/Ling will crush it by shear overwhelming force
You can't really fake a 3gate sentry expo vs zerg since they have map control and will see your lack of sentries. Of course, you can fake that you're going DTs by hiding sentries, but the other way around doesn't really work, unless the zerg is daft
My only point was that it would stop the 8roach/mass ling push at 7:30. It forces the zerg to go up to lair if he wants a third. He can ofc make mass lings to harass the nexus, but that's a fair trade imho (you can still cancel the nexus at that point), and shortly thereafter cannons will be up and you can restart the nexus.
Zerg can ofc go mass roach and go all-in by cutting drones around in the low 20s; that should hit around 6:00-6:30, so he'll be able to kill the forge and gateway (and possibly the cannon) on the low ground, but the nexus will be cancelled. Protoss would switch over to sentries at the top of the ramp and drop 2-4 more gates in his base after that and just delay the roaches long enough (~30 sec) for his DT's to come out and hold the choke. Safe nexus after that, and you're ahead on probes, and can deny the zerg's 3rd until he gets lair tech out.
You'll notice my macro slipping after the 7 min mark (cut probes, no more pylons/gateways, etc), I was just considering whether I should continue or stop there. Doesn't really matter after that point imo, so I decided to leave the game to keep the replay shorter.
edit: Should add that I prefer to 3gate sentry expo vs zerg pool firsts, just saying that it's possible to hold a DT expo purely defensively.
On April 29 2011 23:50 truthless wrote: You can't really fake a 3gate sentry expo vs zerg since they have map control and will see your lack of sentries. Of course, you can fake that you're going DTs by hiding sentries, but the other way around doesn't really work, unless the zerg is daft
My only point was that it would stop the 8roach/mass ling push at 7:30. It forces the zerg to go up to lair if he wants a third. He can ofc make mass lings to harass the nexus, but that's a fair trade imho (you can still cancel the nexus at that point), and shortly thereafter cannons will be up and you can restart the nexus.
Zerg can ofc go mass roach and go all-in by cutting drones around in the low 20s; that should hit around 6:00-6:30, so he'll be able to kill the forge and gateway (and possibly the cannon) on the low ground, but the nexus will be cancelled. Protoss would switch over to sentries at the top of the ramp and drop 2-4 more gates in his base after that and just delay the roaches long enough (~30 sec) for his DT's to come out and hold the choke. Safe nexus after that, and you're ahead on probes, and can deny the zerg's 3rd until he gets lair tech out.
You'll notice my macro slipping after the 7 min mark (cut probes, no more pylons/gateways, etc), I was just considering whether I should continue or stop there. Doesn't really matter after that point imo, so I decided to leave the game to keep the replay shorter.
I don't think your build is viable at all, your cutting too many corners and the Zerg knows exactly what you are doing. If the Zerg happens to make 6lings, the timings of your entire build are thrown for a loop because you can't stop that probe from getting killed till you have a stalker or second sentry
On top of that, you have no way of knowing if the Zerg is going Roach/Ling, if you do a build like yours and the Zerg just rushes a lair and pushes, you die. Just because you have two cannons at your natural doesn't mean your safe (Roach/Ling build has like 8 roaches, he can just snipe them in two volleys)
To put it in perspective, even the build MC did against July Zerg is not as risky as yours--it says something when that is the case.
Your delaying tactic is hanging on a Razors edge, every sentry you make after your first two sentries delays your DT's by 30seconds.
Regarding 3gate Sentry expo: Of course Zerg can see your sentries, but that is part of going 3gate expand, they don't notice it before it is a bit too late, the one I posted, even DarkForce himself gave a thumbs up. A build like yours doesn't seem viable at all, IMO, it seems terrible, fast DT's with a fast expo? You just can't do that, Zerg can read it like a book.
I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
and what is the problem with playing a build MC seesm to think is viable?
I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand.
I think there is FAR too much theorycrafting in your build, I've never ever seen anyone do a build that unsafe, even MC's build where he only builds a single Stalker he doesn't expo till like 6:50~
and what is the problem with playing a build MC seesm to think is viable?
First of all, I'm not advocating MC's build, i'm just saying the build he chose to do was also a bit risky but he didn't cut as many corners as truthless (got Stalker to deny drone bfore making twilight + pylon blocked entrance) AND in his interview MC said he had the entire thing planned out, even to the point if July had spore crawlers. It is safe to say that MC is also MC.
Hmm, well I know that he hasn't started his lair at 3:40 or so, as my probe can stick around that long. So that means the earliest possible overseer is 3:40 + 80 + 17 = 6:17. That probably means skipping ling speed completely though, or getting an early second gas. Not sure how it works out with roaches either. I'd have to try it.
I guess I could try to hide a probe and sac it to find out if he's started his lair after lings come up as well, but that's risky, so lets ignore that possibility. But lets assume I can send a probe out around 5:00 and find out if he has ling speed at that point; that should reveal if he went lair first or not. If he doesn't have ling speed I can simply cancel my dark shrine and go into standard 3gate blink stalker opening.
Bit complicated though, I guess. I don't know how long it would take to get lair started if you went speed first either, so that might not even work
I'm not going to theory craft a new DT build here, should just make another thread about it. But as far as I am concerned, I am not convinced that out of any of the current popular DT builds that any of them counter this build. I've yet to see anyone actually provide something that says otherwise
On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote: Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff
It's definitely possible to stop it and it's not that hard if the natural on the map is not too big. It may be hard to stop on metalopolis or slag pits but maps like shattered/Tal'darim are defensor favoured which makes protoss stronger against this type of play. I am not talking about maps like Shakuras where such play ends in a complete disaster. You need good forcefields, stalkers included in your army and zealots warped at proper times which in my opinion is not that hard to do.
On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote: Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff
As great as Artosis is of a player and how knowledgeable he is, I don't think he quite knows all the timings of these types of builds. When he did the DT expand as he was saying it, he dropped his Dark Shrine at 7mins~, he had DT's out at like 8-9-mins, at that point it is too late.
On April 29 2011 22:29 Big J wrote: Artosis said you counter this with DT's so I dont think we dont have theroycraft about if it's doable, if a guy that spends 24/7 playing, watching and commentating StarCraft2 at the highest competetive level, a Protoss Player himself says this.
How do you counter this with DTs, when you have no way to know it's coming ? Except doing DTs as a standard in every game... pfff
As great as Artosis is of a player and how knowledgeable he is, I don't think he quite knows all the timings of these types of builds. When he did the DT expand as he was saying it, he dropped his Dark Shrine at 7mins~, he had DT's out at like 8-9-mins, at that point it is too late.
I'm sorry but this should end. I know you're eager to prove you are right, but it is useless to talk about it anymore. In the link you have done, you get 3 dts out around 7:10 - 7:30, the question is, can you defend with those 3 dts + the units you had against the losira early 8 roach & ling push. Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You argue that no, you cannot take losira's push.
What's the point in theorycrafting anymore ? Just play the game, see it by yourself, but don't forget to take the straight way from your base to the base of your opponent with your dt in order to catch the ling / roach force and focus the roach while making the ling useless with good force fields and sim city.
Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~
Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel the Zergs third (this I can see, but stopping the push is the more important part).
Also note that DT's put a 45second cooldown on warpgates
Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~
Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel all of the Zergs spore crawlers and third.
I wait with bated breath for this answer.
It is not theorycraft man it's starcraft. It's NOT 8 roach + lings vs 3dts, 2 canons, 1 zealot and 2 sentries.
It's 2 sentries with roughly 6 FF, a good simcity, and 3 dts running wild, don't tell me all the lings are hitting, don't tell me all the roach are hitting. Most of the zerg force is useless with good FF.
45seconds of gateway, yes, which is 22.5 sec with chronoboost....
On April 30 2011 00:21 truthless wrote: edit: nvm, my math sucks
I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand.
no you cant because THIS is the point of the push: you dont get a lair, you only get 1gas and use this gas for speed+an exactly calculated number of roaches. (you dont spam them, you use them as power units to attack your opponent with range while you spam mostly speedlings) If you go for a lair you lose almost half of your roaches(4 of 8-10), so you would need a second gas pretty early for this push, which means less minerals, which means less roaches and lings or a delayed push AND your not able to expand while you push. mining a second gas kills either the push or the follow up
I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
On April 30 2011 00:21 truthless wrote: edit: nvm, my math sucks
I guess a fast lair, even if you get it with your 2nd 100 gas, should give you an overseer out in time to join your roach push. So that'd be a hard counter to a DT fast expand.
no you cant because THIS is the point of the push: you dont get a lair, you only get 1gas and use this gas for speed+an exactly calculated number of roaches. (you dont spam them, you use them as power units to attack your opponent with range while you spam mostly speedlings) If you go for a lair you lose almost half of your roaches(4 of 8-10), so you would need a second gas pretty early for this push, which means less minerals, which means less roaches and lings or a delayed push AND your not able to expand while you push. mining a second gas kills either the push or the follow up
Yeah I know, but we were talking about a fast DT rush that would be blatantly obvious to the zerg, as well as taking your natural. This would allow the zerg to take his 2nd gas and get that lair + the roaches (less lings though). Protoss wouldn't be able to scout the fast lair until it's too late so he'd stay with the DTs and end up with very low amount of units, 2 cannons and 2-3 DTs vs a bunch of roaches/lings (less than the losira push has though) with an overseer.
But I would be curious at how much units you'd have to give up to get that lair+overseer. I might have to play around a bit with that. The 2 cannons + sentry/zealot might just be enough to hold.
On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote: I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches.
Most of us argue that yes, and that, thanks to the dts, you will actually cancel the 3rd of the zerg, force him to build spore colony AND gain total map control until he get lair, which is basically saying hello I won.
You have 1 Zealot, Two sentries, 3 DT's and 2 Cannons that are less than half way from being warped in at 7:30~
Please, enlighten me how you are going to stop 8 Roaches and a bunch of speedlings destroying your natural as well as cancel all of the Zergs spore crawlers and third.
I wait with bated breath for this answer.
It is not theorycraft man it's starcraft. It's NOT 8 roach + lings vs 3dts, 2 canons, 1 zealot and 2 sentries.
It's 2 sentries with roughly 6 FF, a good simcity, and 3 dts running wild, don't tell me all the lings are hitting, don't tell me all the roach are hitting. Most of the zerg force is useless with good FF.
45seconds of gateway, yes, which is 22.5 sec with chronoboost....
I just tested this, just then.
@ 7:30~
-Looking at my sentries I have 4 Forcefields, with a 5th coming up in roughly 3seconds and another in about 8seconds.
-My Cannons aren't even half way done. This is mind you, going 2 blind cannons the moment I have money right after warping in DT's.
-I also have around 27 Probes -29 Chrono energy -I am also playing blind up until this point, there is no way of knowing the Zerg has gone Roach/Ling, if I warped in DT's via Proxy pylon further up, I may have missed the attack
If my DT's are brought back to defend,I lose all my sentries/cancel nexus whilst the Zerg drops his spores. If I send my DT's, it turns into a base race,
EDIT:
Also, chronoboost doesn't reduce the duration by half -__-, Warpgate cooldown is somewhere around 30~seconds if chronoboosted constantly
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote: I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches.
Thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on what tech route I should choose after this? I guess just standard robo play after this.
Chrono boost increases the building/research speed by 50%, or, in other words, reduces the build/research time by 33% (think of it like a car moving at 100% speed increasing it's speed to 150%, that is, 100/150 = 67% as long to go from point A to point B).
On April 30 2011 00:59 PeggyHill wrote: I am just reading through the thread at the moment, I am having trouble dealing with this sort of build as a protoss. My question is what a protoss can do to counter/deal with this sort of build?
The best bet at the moment seems to be a 3gate sentry expand as usual, but be sure to simcity off one side of your natural and get at least one cannon. You want to hold off the lings from reaching your sentries with FFs until enough stalkers pop out to shove away the roaches.
Thanks for the reply. Any thoughts on what tech route I should choose after this? I guess just standard robo play after this.
I would get hallucination and find out what he's doing asap, but yeah, standard robo play is a solid followup. You could possibly, if you scout him droning hard, simply add on gateways and hit him hard with gateway units to punish him. It depends on how the engagement goes.
Having a few goes, it just depends when the Zerg chooses to attack. If they start production after DT's have hit, then it is too late--turns into a base race, most Favors Protoss--i.e Super fast DT's
But the old cliche of "the best defense is a good offense" kinda plays here. If they hit just as, just before or slightly after DT's are out, then it always favors them, they have a big enough force to cancel the Protoss Nexus and do serious damage to the main if Protoss do not withdraw the DT's and use them to defend, giving Zerg enough time to stabilize with spore crawlers and be ahead due to stopping the natural from going up. At least in my eyes, this build is safe against DT's
ok to get some things right because I just wanted to know some exact timings of the 1st Losira vs Alicia game and rewatched it:
-) Losira was at Alicias base at 8:30 gametime (not 7:30) even assuming that Alicia's little move out delayed the push by 30sec (which it didnt) you have plenty of time to get fast dts without needing them superfast, I guess even something like 2gate void ray expand seems viable against this rush, if you just delay your expo a little bit and have your void ray(s) actually in place to defend your expo (unlike in game 2, when Alicia did 1gate, canon expand while his first void ray wasn't done, and was out of position when the attack occured)
-) when Losira had lost his last roach and the rush was over (@9:40), the harvester count was 33 for Losira to 32 for Alicia.
here comes the biggy, noone has seen yet: -)while Losira was hard droning from 9:40-13:00 (when Losira hit 77drones) Alicia was ONLY PRODUCING PROBES OUT OF 1 NEXUS ALL THE TIME! (I checked and rechecked it, but as the production tab is open like all the time in the VOD it is really true) He had spare money all the time, so he could have easily produced out of both nexi (and those 13probes would have paid for themselves while they are produced), but I guess he had them(nexi) on hotkey and didnt realize he had only 1 selected. Alicia had 45probes at 13:00, coming from his 32 at 9:40 this means he hat 13probes less than he should have at this time! that just ruins the complete game for him, because with only 45probes taking his 3rd so early doesnt make sense. After seeing this I have to say: the rush secured Losira his third, and maybe gave him a little timing window to get ahead in harvesters, but the reason why Alicia never seemed to get on even footing was Alicia not producing the probes... (the first time he build 2probes at once was ~13:20, shortly before his third was done)
I think i would subscribe to the idea that alicia just got nervous and handled everything poorly, the build losira did is more than holdable by a standard 3gate expand.
On April 30 2011 01:35 dUTtrOACh wrote: It's like Artosis said after the match. DTs will roll this timing push stratwhen used defensively. The zerg is on hatch tech, after all.
Ive been trying it out again and again for the last 15-20mins and I kinda get that feeling.
If you have the DT's at your natural waiting for them as well as your sentries in a nice position + quick cannons, you can hold it off...it gets tense when it is just speedlings left and all you have is 4 DT's and a Zealot guarding access to your main with no Cannons/Sentries, but if the DT's are half way across the map then it is over, Roaches waddle in and kill the cannons + poultry force left to defend, not exactly sure what to do at that point---the annoying part for me is that fact you have to drop cannons the moment you warp in your last DT with only two sentries and a Zealot, which is a dead give away that DT's are on their way to the Zergs base.
DT's can't exactly be used as a reactionary thing against this build, I'm sure there will be an ebb and flow involved with DT timings. But as a hard counter, I'm not convinced.
Losira was at Alicias base at 8:30 gametime (not 7:30)
That was cross position Terminus though :/
People here already got the fact that Alicia didn't play as well as he should have, a well played 3gate expand that doesn't cut corners should be fine as long as the map isn't something like Typhon, might have to get creative there. 2Gate Voidray opening will work as well. DTs, kinda up in the air for me. The more and more I try the DT opening, the more and more I feel like it can be done, it is just how you respond--I'll have to get use to using them defensively
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Well, on the other hand it isn't an allin from the start... up to around 6:30 you're playing pretty standard. That means that if you see Protoss getting greedy you can whip this out, but if not you can continue along your solid route. Or at least, that's what it seems like, I think it's too early to issue ultimatums on anything in SC2 ^^.
Question @people who would know, when do Protosses generally get their Forge & 4th Gate after a 3Gate Expand (in the current, greedy-ish metagame) and when do you think they would need to in order to be safe?
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Well, on the other hand it isn't an allin from the start... up to around 6:30 you're playing pretty standard. That means that if you see Protoss getting greedy you can whip this out, but if not you can continue along your solid route. Or at least, that's what it seems like, I think it's too early to issue ultimatums on anything in SC2 ^^.
Question @people who would know, when do Protosses generally get their Forge & 4th Gate after a 3Gate Expand (in the current, greedy-ish metagame) and when do you think they would need to in order to be safe?
Exactly. You are not committing until 6:30, and you can make that choice informatively, not blindly. That makes it a very good standard opening, giving you the option to punish a protoss that cuts corners.
I believe you drop the forge as soon as you can afford it after the second warp-in (you need 2 pylons too). Cannon after the next warp-in. Consecutive gates as you build up minerals. Depending a bit on where you spent your chrono's, the first warp-in happens between 5:45 - 6:15 or so, 2nd warp-in 30 seconds later. If you're being greedy you'd squeeze something like a robo or stargate in there instead of one round of warp-ins.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
I just want to chime in and say about the dt part:
You can still use your usual scouting techniques to prepare for that. You can survive with spores no problem, and be in a fine position especially since if you cut sentries to get fast tech protoss will NOT be able to hold his expansion. DTs are really not a problem unless you weren't expecting them at all, in which case they would be game ending for the vast majority of "standard" builds regardless.
I used a similar build extensively on ladder and what gives it trouble is solid, defensive play, and it's mostly an auto-win against anything cute.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically.
There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason)
The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
On April 29 2011 20:41 truthless wrote: Forge first expanding has other obvious weaknesses, and I wouldn't do this build against that. Artosis was correct that any well-refined build off a forge first expand will stop roach/ling aggression. I don't agree that DTs are a good option though; they come a little too late when forge fast expanding unless you cut sentries, which are pretty much required to keep the roach/ling army from tearing down your wall and after that it's all downhill. Voids can work, but if the zerg decided to banelingbust your front instead of making roaches you're pretty screwed. In general, I'm not a big fan of forge first expands.
I totally agree that DT"s arent a very good answer to this build. Morrow was saying that this build is super weak to 2 gate DT's but i dont see how you couldnt get an evo chamber up in time
PS. zerg pro's are so pessimistic =p
2 or 3 gate DTs (doesn't really matter which, the gas is the hinderance), is quite an effective opening in PvZ. Even if scouted perfectly and stopped from doing any offensive damage, it'll still prevent the 3rd coming up from the zerg and give you a relatively safe 2nd (with the help of some cannoning).
Even better, if the zerg for some reason skips roaches (scout it with hallucination), you can actually straight up kill him with just zealots and archons. But that's not a likely mistake any zergs at master or above will make.
People keep going on and on about 2/3 Gate DT's but I still don't see the connection
By the time your DT's hit the Zerg has 9 Roaches and a ton of Lings, how do you stop that exactly? You have to delay your expo, the Zerg might take damage but I don't see how you are a head in anyway over the Zerg---this build rolls over the Nexus cancel build with ease, I don't get how you even have the units to contest Zergs ground army, regardless of it not having an overseer. Map control is nice, but your expo is delayed and as a result so is your tech and your third
You'd hold it with cannons, mostly. Drop the forge+3rd gate on the low ground and semi-wallin your natural with 2-3 cannons backing it up. You'll have a mineral excess from going DTs, so this is fine. While your DTs stop the zerg from getting a third (he has to get Lair or creepspread first), he has the option of backing off or trading units for some infrastructure. You can be very cost-efficient here, if you control your DTs right (focus on roaches) and prevent any ling runbys into your main. You actually take the nexus at roughly the same timing as you do with a standard 3gate sentry expand, so the nexus should be up before the roaches arrive.
But where are you getting the money from? This guy made a decent DT expand build:
His timings for DT's are around 7:10-7:30 -- that is as fast as you are going to get really for any standard timing unless you can drop your DT and Twilight council (immediately after the cyber) from a 10gate with super early gas with one Stalker and no units all on top of the Zerg not catching on.
How are you affording two cannons and a forge + DT's + expo? I Just don't get where you are getting the money from, you will have at most 2 sentres and a Zealot, how do you just not die to the 6:30~ Roach prod?
The roach prod isn't at 6:30, it's at 7:30. The roaches get produced at 6:30. Takes em a good while to march across the map.
I still don't see how this is viable. Just going from the other guys build alone, at 7:30, you have 1 Zealot, 2 sentries and 3 DT's (out and hunting) + 2 Cannons being warped in<-- Important, you don't have the minerals to warpin the cannons until around 7:20-7:30 if you choose to make DT's
If you choose to get the Cannons, you just don't have the minerals to make ANY units, even with the DT's, he will just bust in past your cannons and kill you.
If you choose to fight with the DT's, then he will have spore crawlers up in time and you will almost be guaranteed to cancel your Nexus and your DT's do next to no damage. I think it is almost impossible to not lose everything on the low ground to those Roaches + Speedlings
If you choose to rush DT's super fast with a single Stalker and no expo/super late expo, then the build LosirA did is in no better position than any other standard Zerg build.
IMO, this build counters any DT builds as you have enough forces to kill any Protoss going early DT's w/ expo + the same level of detection as any other build against super fast DT's
The DT conversation is really pretty silly. The idea that an attack like this forces you to go DTs would be a terrible notion. The idea of sacrificing around 700 gas in tech units that he can protect his base from for 150 minerals and 2 larva (evo chamber + spore crawler) in the first 7 minutes of the game would be very unfortunate.
Those of you suggesting this is an all-in, is the OP wrong in stating that Losira was still ahead of a 3-gate expand in drones?
At the very least, if the goal of this is to determine if protoss can do anything against this push with a 3-gate sentry expand, we probably should examine more than 2 games. If this is as powerful as the OP implies, other zergs will be doing this. And when they do, we'll find out through a much larger number of games if 3-gate sentry expand is at a disadvantage to this push or not.
Or the current patch notes could go through and then everything would be different.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically.
There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason)
The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works) I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment.
It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you.
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game.
It should be noted that while Alicia made some important mistakes in the game on Metalopolis, so did Losira. He actually made a bunch of macro errors, including a few supply blocks. His first queen was delayed and actually required him to do an extractor trick on the natural to get it out. The execution was much smoother in the first game.
There have been a multitude of roach/ling openings to date, but this one seems optimized to exploit a timing window against 3 gate expand. It's nice for zerg to be the one with an effective timing attack in ZvP for once.
i personally don't understand the thinking behind a DT response. I mean, no one is going to want to open DTs every game, and i don't know when or how u would go about getting the intel to react fast enough with DTs.
If DTs were super standard in the early stages of ZvP, i could understand why this build would be so risky, as it is, i completely agree with truthless that its really up to the zerg to scout out his opponent and see if he should start droning or make roaches and push. I would also not consider this all in since it seems obvious whether you can do damage or if u can drone up.
if someone could address that with something logical, i think that would clear up any of my confusion, but those are basically the reasons i think this build looks so strong
Edit: one more thing i should add is that it seems unfair to call 3gate expo greedy, zerg can be droning super hard for all u kno and obviously has expo (u should scout that) and u can't exactly scout as long as theirs a few zerglings on the map. always kind of subscribed to the idea that u have to have a strong timing against a zerg, or hallu (which takes awhile) if u don't want to play blind.
if u wait any longer to get expo it seems like u should have a push coming or you'll fall behind
One of the reasons this build is timed so well is the delay on zergling speed, so if you're worried about holding it you can get on the map with early stalkers to do some damage (obv will delay your expo), or delay your expo longer to be safe. Never think as though you can do nothing while your opponent holds the cards. Losira took risks to get his build to attack so early, don't ignore those facts when assessing how strong the build is.
I'm inclined to just say that a standard 3gate sentry expand is safe and as long as you're not greedy (build cannons when you expand, not once you see an attack coming) you can be even. But even if this build killed 3gate sentry expands, you can pick weaknesses in the build (slow zerglings and heavy droning for a long time) and exploit them. Sending out an early stalker is zero risk versus slow lings and can force your opponent off a timing attack even if you don't really want to make a stalker before expanding.
On April 30 2011 06:39 galivet wrote: So let me get this straight:
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game.
??? Alicia held the attack in g1 AND had hallucination! AND YES, SC2 is not supposed to be a game that is "safe" for any race... Just because you Protoss players dream of a world were you get a bunch of sentries that get stronger as the game goes, on an expansion and 3gateways without having to worry about anything doesnt mean that this should be the case in the game. Zergs have to worry about so much stuff after expanding, but hey Protoss dont want to worry, Protoss should get a completly safe 2nd. And once the game develops furhter you think there should be a build how to end up on even footing with a third base no matter what zerg does?
it annoys me that morrow etc is saying the forge in the base is a mistake, if you go back to his " cutting" corners i think the forge in base is VERY clever.
to get a forge outside you need a pylon, followed by the forge, followed by the cannon.. if you start the forge, go down and throw the pylon down you can actually get the cannon up slightly quicker as you are saving on the pylon build time which actually would " Aid" the build depending how tight the natural is, i do not think it was a mistake and he could of thrown a building as a blocker down sr8 after the pylon and actually had a faster cannon
I am thinking about 2 gate forge in base to deal with this as i am about 5-25 in the last week in pvz :\ now that zergs actually make units before the 70 drone mark they are almost impossible to deal with.
If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
even if you kill 1 hatch with dts, he will block the ramp, build a spore in his main and meanwhile destroy your whole army/expo - he will be ahead if he does it ok. same goes for voidray build - he has no antiair - but before voids kill a group of lings the lings destroyed the whole base pretty much.
+ you cannot blindly go for DT builds since it sux vs most other builds.
you cannot drop 4 cannons either, you are lost vs greedy builds.
you simply have to get out more units than usually - blindly - and push the zerg if he doesnt execute this build finally.
its still a strong build and hard to deal with in almost any case.
On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote: If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Lol yeah let's blindly make cannons so that the Zerg can drone/tech/macro up ven further with zero risk.
That's not a counter to a strat, playing blind. Oh wanna know how to beat fast dts? Build fast detection blind!
-_-
either way the Zerg gets ahead from this build by forcing delayed tech, delayed macro and doing ven the smallest damage.
On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote: If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Lol yeah let's blindly make cannons so that the Zerg can drone/tech/macro up ven further with zero risk.
That's not a counter to a strat, playing blind. Oh wanna know how to beat fast dts? Build fast detection blind!
-_-
either way the Zerg gets ahead from this build by forcing delayed tech, delayed macro and doing ven the smallest damage.
right now protosses generally have an advantage going into the midgame, so if "behind" means "not ahead" then sure you'll be behind.
this isn't chess, you don't get 100% information. ever. there are going to be times when you have 0 information, and all you can do is play safely or toss coins and pray. the same thing goes for every race in every matchup. sure, safe builds generally put you at a disadvantage against semi-greedy builds, but it's generally a much, much smaller disadvantage than playing greedily blindly and getting punished for it or going allin against a safe player. making cannons and not getting attacked is much less of a disadvantage than not making cannons and losing your natural.
right now protosses generally have an advantage going into the midgame, so if "behind" means "not ahead" then sure you'll be behind.
care to explain?
just restating what some pro players have said :/ I'd imagine it's a combination of their tech being sooner than is safe and their expansion being sooner than is safe, because of cutting corners but that's just my speculation
I would love to copy down Losiras ZvP build order since im having trouble here in silver. I believe that Losira is a very great player and should get to Code S in no time!
On April 30 2011 10:51 dogcore wrote: I would love to copy down Losiras ZvP build order since im having trouble here in silver. I believe that Losira is a very great player and should get to Code S in no time!
On April 30 2011 06:39 galivet wrote: So let me get this straight:
Protoss's inability to scout what zerg is doing between speedlings and halu/observer means that protoss can't ever safely cut the corners necessary to keep up with a greedy zerg. However zerg is able to scout whether protoss is being greedy or is keeping up in army. As a result the safe protoss build can at best guarantee that protoss survives into midgame at a macro disadvantage. The protoss can never know if it's safe to move out to punish greedy zerg in the early game because of speedling map control.
I guess it goes back to the point that Idra has made about insufficient early scouting capabilities for all races turning SC2 into a guessing game.
??? Alicia held the attack in g1 AND had hallucination! AND YES, SC2 is not supposed to be a game that is "safe" for any race... Just because you Protoss players dream of a world were you get a bunch of sentries that get stronger as the game goes, on an expansion and 3gateways without having to worry about anything doesnt mean that this should be the case in the game. Zergs have to worry about so much stuff after expanding, but hey Protoss dont want to worry, Protoss should get a completly safe 2nd. And once the game develops furhter you think there should be a build how to end up on even footing with a third base no matter what zerg does?
Whine, whine, whine.
Protoss has actually been whining about roach/ling for a nice while, even before this build came by, because simply making a shitload of roaches and lings and attacking at the 6:30 minute mark almost guarantees a win vs any 3 Gate Expo user because the cannon will be too late.
You obviously never played Protoss, so please don't say that we don't care about anything.
We get NO scout until the 8:30 minute mark because slings destroy everything, so that's why toss has hallucinations to save ourself from being blind.
Slings are much better scout until observers and hallucinations come in, by scouting based on army composition can get you a lot.
On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote: If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings.
Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky.
you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote: you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote: you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice.
and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA.
this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote: you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice.
and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA.
this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent.
what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players.
also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +
(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT)
On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote: If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings.
Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky.
Fast DT's... blind.
On the other hand, Protoss can deny Zerg scouting until Lair essentially if stalkers patrol correctly. So the zerg doesn't know whether there's a 4 gate all-in coming or a 3-gate economic opening or a fast blink stalker build. The blindness is 2-ways, I believe, and this is not good for starcraft. You shouldn't be able to scout easily, but I think that scouting should be a little bit better in the early game and I think you will find a lot of pros agreeing with this.
On April 30 2011 09:07 proxY_ wrote: If the protoss blindly makes 2-4 cannons it will stop this as long as they can drop competent forcefields. Fast dts will also stop it, they might not kill the zerg but they can take out the offensive push easily enough and then safely allow the protoss to take a third, at that point it's deathball incoming and every zerg knows what that means. The build definitely has merit but it's not remotely imbalanced or anything.
Playing blind is a terrible idea. Zerg can deny scouting up to the 8:30 mark with speedlings.
Against a decent zerg, he will snipe probes with a couple of slings and hide whether he is droning or making roaches to just destroy protoss right away if protoss doesn't get lucky.
Fast DT's... blind.
On the other hand, Protoss can deny Zerg scouting until Lair essentially if stalkers patrol correctly. So the zerg doesn't know whether there's a 4 gate all-in coming or a 3-gate economic opening or a fast blink stalker build. The blindness is 2-ways, I believe, and this is not good for starcraft. You shouldn't be able to scout easily, but I think that scouting should be a little bit better in the early game and I think you will find a lot of pros agreeing with this.
However, lings are very mobile and collect info about what the Protoss is allining or not. Zerg can scout if he has his Nexus up or not and check their army composition.
There is a certain degree of uncertainty in Zerg's scouting that is definitely unreliable but their scouting is definitely better until Protoss gets halliculation. By that time though, it is too late as Zerg's allin will hit already.
Hm.. I'm actually quite interested how Protoss players will adapt. I wonder if we'll ever see 4gate pressure into expand as standard because of this new build.
Well, I suppose some sort of 2gate pressure might be the way to go, especially after 1.3.3. Couple of stalkers will allow the protoss to retain map control until speed comes out, and force the Z to make a spinecrawler and/or more lings, and not cut corners with the gas unless he's comfortable with the toss having map control until 5:00 or so.
Though I worry a bit at the delay of the sentries, as their energy is crucial to the midgame and is the big reason you do a 3gate sentry expand in the first place. While holding it with a 3gate sentry expand works, you need to be very defensive and this allows the zerg to cut a lot of corners in the early game.
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically.
There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason)
The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build.
On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:
On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works) I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment.
It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you.
I've never said that the protoss were not cutting corners. Of course they are, teching expand, since a long time, because zerg were unable to play agressive. What I'm saying is that it is not this build that can become "standard" against protoss, it is the whole idea of being agressiv. Most of the top zerg are playing early agression in ZvP now, be it this kind of timing push, or just multi prong attacks with roach, hydra drops or ling bling into infestorz. If there were more zerg that would just copy this build this would not work at all: protoss would just adapt to the timing push and continue to cut corner around it. That's why it's such a feast of style in ZvP right now, every body is doing their own style of agression.
Also, since when does protoss have hallu at 8:30 only? Warp gate finish around 6 no ? If you research hallu just after warp gate, when will you get it ?
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Too bad, you completely missed the point. As it seems you disagree because of dogma and not concrete things I won't try to argue with you. I'll just try to make you think by saying that you talk of 1/ "if the protoss knows it coming", which is a pretty enormous "if" as the current P builds have no way of knowing that. 2/ "a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind" there's a double contradiction here, as the current protoss builds don't fall in this definition but this zerg build is.
idra vs kiwi from yesterday IGN ProLeague. Idra using this, Idra's timing is a little bit late, but it doesn't matter as kiwi went stargate, which is more or less an auto loss vs this. Be careful, it is game 3 so you'll se the result of the first 2 games
No I disagree because you don't understand what "standard" is... 3 gate expand IS standard because no matter what the zerg do, you can do it blindly and forget about the current meta game: with good enough mechanics and good enoug timings, you can theorically survive any push / attacks; and you will eventually reach end game without getting behind your opponent economically.
There is no double contradiction at all, just you being biased about 3 gate expand, and not knowing a lot about ZvP builds (like we have a build that is safe enough to take everything the protoss is doing and that will not put us behind too much no matter what the opponent do... the zerg race is "reactionnary" for a reason)
The Z build that is the closest to be the 3gate for zerg is the spanishiwa build.
On April 30 2011 04:06 Dommk wrote:
On April 30 2011 02:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On April 30 2011 01:19 MrCon wrote:
On April 29 2011 07:51 MorroW wrote: the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
But I think those reasons are saying why this build is good. In the current state of the game, protosses are all cutting corners, that's why they are doing so good. A lot of them will die before they learn how to adapt, that's already a win. A lot are fake pushing, a lot only put one canon, a lot make a fast stargate and cut one warping round to make a void ray, which this build destroys. A lot of this corner cutting is the reason why zergs enter midgame in a disadvantage. If you have a build that force extremely safe play, with your build non being an allin and the build being even better economy-wise than the safe opponent build, that's a win situation.
The die to dt part I'm really not sure, to have dt at the 7 minute mark you have to tech insanely fast, I admit I haven't seen this build vs dt but I doubt dt could be good. But even if the dt build is a direct counter, that's pretty good, because that means that protosses must use dt openings, which means that zergs can evolve from here, which is good for zerg in any case. Remember the P can't know if this is coming, so suggesting the dt build as a blind build is good for zerg in the long run.
If all zergs in the world used this build all games for the next 2 weeks, the ZvP matchup would change quite a lot I think. I know all of this is very theoric, but most of the arguments for saying this build is not that good are assuming that the P is either teching hyper hard (dt) or playing hyper safe (lot of canons). But you want this as a zerg ! You want your opponent having to waste resources early, you want him to delay his expansion. I feel people don't understand the implications of this build. This build should not be a special taktics, this build should be the standard build.
You are so wrong, this can't be the standard build because a standard build is (as morrow said rightfully) a build that can be done no matter what the opponent do and that will not put you too much behind. With this build, if you know it is coming, there is NO WAY the protoss is not gonna be ahead at the end of the push.
You just don't know about the current ZvP. Maybe you are protoss, and you are not watching any zerg's stream, but at the moment every zerg are playing agressiv, in their own way. Not many do like Losira with this early push (I agree it's still one of the best build i have seen because it is not that all inish), but most try drop / harass / early agression. The ZvP is starting to change and it has nothing to do with losira (everybody underestimate the impact of IdrA and his stream on Zerg EU & US community imo). The whole match up is turning around making maximum damage while teching up, no zerg plays fully maccro anymore, it is just not good against P, and with how greedy P plays, that's the best way to play.
The P community has always been wrong about ZvP, like "make infestors" and stop making roach, and now we see everybody playing roach heavy with multi-prong attacks... funny.
Don't think you can dumb it down to just "mass roach with multi-prong", Losira did Roach/Infestor with baneling drops against Genius in the group stages, it worked pretty darn well but a godly Stalker split + nice timing from Genius ended up with him pulling through. A lot of Zergs on ladder are doign Ling/Infestor/Ultra w/ or w/o Banelings. Though with this aggressive Roach style, Roach Infestor is the end game for it, supplemented with Broodlords. Watching DarkForce on ladder that seems to be what he is doing, building Hydras re-actively but ultimately favoring Roaches into Roach/Infestor whilst getting Broodlords for the Infestor/Brood deathball
The core is still roach heavy most of the time, except for some build like ling/bling (rare but that's what I do) or hydra ling.
3 gate expand is indeed standard. What you don't get is that the way protosses are doing their 3 gate expand currently is not safe against this, because they're cutting too much corners. I agree that most of the zergs don't play macro anymore (and we see a lot of Z winnings vs P for a week or two, so this seems to works) I'm not saying this build is imba, or miraculous. I'm saying this build can kill a lot of builds that the protosses are currently using, even the "safe" builds, because those builds are executed very greedily at the moment.
It's exactly like 3 rax expand for terran. A very safe build on paper, but if you add 2 reactors, one tech lab and start stim without bunker you open a pretty big timing window against you.
I've never said that the protoss were not cutting corners. Of course they are, teching expand, since a long time, because zerg were unable to play agressive. What I'm saying is that it is not this build that can become "standard" against protoss, it is the whole idea of being agressiv. Most of the top zerg are playing early agression in ZvP now, be it this kind of timing push, or just multi prong attacks with roach, hydra drops or ling bling into infestorz. If there were more zerg that would just copy this build this would not work at all: protoss would just adapt to the timing push and continue to cut corner around it. That's why it's such a feast of style in ZvP right now, every body is doing their own style of agression.
Also, since when does protoss have hallu at 8:30 only? Warp gate finish around 6 no ? If you research hallu just after warp gate, when will you get it ?
I never meant to imply that this build in itself would be the "future of PvZ", and I've said before that I would change the topic if I could. I was merely using this game as a staging point for discussing how the matchup is changing. I just thought it was a very good example, as Losira hits his timings just right imo, because he's so good.
If you research hallu right after WGT and don't chrono it, it'll finish 1 minute later. -10 sec per chrono. Do note that you can't get hallucination, keep up probe production, drop pylons, drop the nexus, and stay on top of all 3 gates warpins though. Something's gotta give. You can't actually afford the forge even before the 2nd warp-in or so. It's pretty tight right around there as you transfer the probes too, around the 3rd/4th warp-in. Add in travel time for the phoenix, and most hallucinated phoenix reach the enemy base ~7:30-8:00.
edit: 30 sec between each warpin btw, if you didn't know.
Protoss has actually been whining about roach/ling for a nice while, even before this build came by, because simply making a shitload of roaches and lings and attacking at the 6:30 minute mark almost guarantees a win vs any 3 Gate Expo user because the cannon will be too late.
yeah lol: 6:30 is neither the timing of this Roach/ling attack, nor of any other. The 1base allin pushes hit earlier, and this push starts from the Zerg base at 7:30... Get your numbers straight!
We get NO scout until the 8:30 minute mark because slings destroy everything, so that's why toss has hallucinations to save ourself from being blind.
-) Zerg scouting at that time isn't that good either, you can sacrifice an overlord, which most Pro Players dont do in a lot of games, because it usually gets intercepted, it's expensive and with the maps getting bigger you usually dont even have one in the right spot. so you scout based on army composition which is extremly tricky (just saying: HuK vs JulyZerg! HuK showed his usual sentry/zealot composition whily chronoboosting a lot of stalkers out and not showing them to July) -) if you walk out with your army, you will either see his composition and be able to retreat due to FFs, or Zerg has to stop droning which isnt bad either -) develope a better opening, if you dont like 3gate sentry warp gate expand, because your hallucination will be late, do another opening to expand. btw the next patch might help here, because 2gate openings will be stronger, and gateways will be stronger, so you might be able to just skip warp gate and get hallu right away
On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote: so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
This is literally the only time in this thread that Losira's aggression is called by the appropriate name. This is a timing attack. I think that people are getting all excited over it because it's one of the first that Zerg have used. The surprising thing is simply that it took so long to arrive.
Losira gave himself a number of options and used his scouting to determine which would be the best route to take. It's assertive, but still reactive. The blame for it working so well can be laid right at Alicia's feet.
This morrow quote makes me sad. He has the winrate he has in ZvP because every single protoss is cutting corners currently. They're so used to play in a no rush 10+ that all their builds are shifting toward absolute greed. And it works because nobody punishes them. As a protoss or a terran, would you do nothing (like zergs) if you saw your zerg opponent double expand without unit ? No, you would just go kill them, because that's the obvious thing to do. Protosses are currently playing like a zerg who double expanded for months without never being punished for it. And zergs are thinking it's normal to not punish this, because they would have to do "a timing attack" ><
On April 29 2011 17:58 MorroW wrote: so im just gonna make this timing attack that only in theory works if they are cutting corners and/or executes badly
This is literally the only time in this thread that Losira's aggression is called by the appropriate name. This is a timing attack. I think that people are getting all excited over it because it's one of the first that Zerg have used. The surprising thing is simply that it took so long to arrive.
well it's neither so surprising nor one of the first. Zerg has been created so reactive that Zerg builds have to wait for the other races builds to really develope on high level. Finally after Protoss seems to have found a style and is not just going random techs and timings like at the start of SC2 Zergs are able to create builds and attacks. and I really think morrow is right about Protoss just cutting corners a lot these days, once they get into the midgame, but I dont think you can blame them. Zergs have been playing extremly passive because the MU was way less figuered out. (most of the time when I play on the ladder vs a Protoss I scout and go like: he 3gate expanded but now he is rushing colossus and has a forge that is upgrading with only 1-2canons... he cant have enough units to defend!) I guess that's one of the downsides of the 3gate expansion: you cannot follow it up with tech easily, as Forcefields dont kill units on their own. I really, really think that Protoss should start with another opening if they want to play something else than 3gate expansion into 6gate aggression, because if they start with sentries, they have to follow up with units, which blocks your tech, but puts you in a spot where you invested tons of ressources in an army, so you better do something with it.
and there are other timings as well, but most of them evolve around the lair tech, because it is safer to get a lair first, because else you lose to air or dt play pretty fast.
On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote: you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice.
and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA.
this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent.
what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players.
also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +
(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT)
i'm not whining, i'm stating why early agression (when protoss can't scout) is good, not OP, just something every zerg should be ready to do, you don't need to start the game planning the early attack, zerg can scout and almost instantly change their game plan to an agressive one, and the protoss players can't tell if the zerg is playing greed or agressive till hallu is ready, if losira scouted an safe defense, he could just build drones, if scouted low unit count, go for the kill, if scouted high unit count, play safe. that way he can always get into the mid game with an advantage. this is so simple and yet so good... protoss have to be ready for everything, and you will always end behind playing this way.
a lot of zergs already know this, and the best way to exploit it, is by knowing what the protoss player can do with what they have now so they can react, some zergs should stop thinking they have to see the whole protoss base to know what is coming, in the early game, the protoss unit composition (zealot, stalker and sentry), is like an guide to what protoss want to do, some may say that scouting this way is very trick, but if the protoss is trying to play mind games with units he doesn't want to get, his build will hit later and be weaker. the protoss race is the race that loses more when the oponent knows what you are trying to do. I will go as far and say, if the zerg learn to read the protoss early game, ZvP will be (i think it already is) an even matchup or yet, zerg favoured.
EDIT: with the new patch, protoss can scout a little more if he opens 2 gate, but hallu is delayed by 40s
On April 30 2011 12:06 rpgalon wrote: you can yet argue that you have to cut corners... if you don't cut you will be behind a oponent that does, and each early advantage you can get, increases exponentialy in the long run. you can play safe and get far behind later on cause your oponent played greed, or you can play greed and maybe die right now... you have to play in the limit and between lings out and hallu finished, you really can't tell where is this limit (unless you are going one base stargate) , you can't tell if the zerg is going to attack soon or if he is going to play greed while the zerg (most times) can see if the protoss is playing greed, teching or planning to attack. (just look the number of sentries, stalkers, zealots, early expo, forge, number of gateways etc...)
now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners. now that zergs are learning to distinguish protoss builds, they can play greed if protoss is playing safe, or go for the kill if protoss is trying to cut corners. but zerg should only play this way, while protoss can't scout, once protoss is able scout again zerg, should stop try to cut corners.
You have ways to scout, you're just getting them later. If you need them sooner, get them sooner.
Building a forge at your natural somewhat sooner isn't going to straight up lose you the game against a zerg who is droning hard, you're exaggerating the advantage zerg gets quite a bit. If zerg goes for a fast third you have to realize that it delays his tech, and Protoss has some strong 2 base pushes which can put quite a bit of pressure on that, or maybe you could just not make a nexus and go for aggression instead. I'm not going to pretend I understand what you need to do but I definitely don't think that there's nothing you can do like you seem to be implying.
lol all i read here is lots of theorycraft, no real advice.
and how do you expect us to scout sooner? chrono halluc? it'll come out later than warptech. 1 gate robo for obs? HA.
this build losira has works for a reason. it worked twice against alicia for a reason. its raping hard right now in high masters for a reason.
better to theorycraft than cry about it. and no, I'm not trying to give you advice. I'm trying to give you a direction but apparently you don't want one, you just want to find flaws in everything I say without actually contributing anything. It's obvious that this is defendable using a safe build (which is more than I can say for nexus cancel attacks), but apparently you don't want a safe build: you want a SAFE build which has no flaws and will always have you at least even with your opponent.
what do you want blizzard to do about it? nerf lings, nerf roaches? now zerg can't defend anything. the only people who can fix this are the players.
also, in the alicia vs losira game, if alicia had started hallucination immediately after his warp gate finished, he would have had it around 7:15 with no chrono boost on the Hallu. guess when the roaches popped out? 7:15. If you make a forge on time you might be able to use reactionary cannons. + Show Spoiler +
(NOTE THIS IS NOT ADVICE JUST A DIRECTION FYI LOOK INTO IT BUT DONT THINK IM MAKING A STATEMENT)
i'm not whining, i'm stating why early agression (when protoss can't scout) is good, not OP, just something every zerg should be ready to do, you don't need to start the game planning the early attack, zerg can scout and almost instantly change their game plan to an agressive one, and the protoss players can't tell if the zerg is playing greed or agressive till hallu is ready, if losira scouted an safe defense, he could just build drones, if scouted low unit count, go for the kill, if scouted high unit count, play safe. that way he can always get into the mid game with an advantage. this is so simple and yet so good... protoss have to be ready for everything, and you will always end behind playing this way.
a lot of zergs already know this, and the best way to exploit it, is by knowing what the protoss player can do with what they have now so they can react, some zergs should stop thinking they have to see the whole protoss base to know what is coming, in the early game, the protoss unit composition (zealot, stalker and sentry), is like an guide to what protoss want to do, some may say that scouting this way is very trick, but if the protoss is trying to play mind games with units he doesn't want to get, his build will hit later and be weaker. I will go as far and say, if the zerg learn to read the protoss early game, ZvP will be an even matchup (i think it already is) or yet, zerg favoured. the protoss race is the race that loses more when the oponent knows what you are trying to do.
EDIT: with the new patch, protoss can scout a little more if he opens 2 gate, but hallu is delayed by 40s
I wasn't saying you were whining :S the other guy was. And I agree with everything you said, but I don't think we can say that it's zerg favoured for a long time, especially with the new patch on the horizon.
Q. Recently in ZvP, Zergs have been using a 2 base 8 Roach and mass Zerglings build vs 3 gate Sentry expand, what do you think about this strategy? After Alicia's loss vs IMLosira (Alicia and Min are in the same team) we had a team meeting concerning this build order. We concluded that it's a great anti-3Gate expand build. However there are several Protoss build orders that counter this push like fast Voids or DTs because Zergs are spending the gas on the 8 Roaches, the Lair tech is delayed and stalkers prevents Zerg scouting. Also if Protoss goes stalkers to pressure the lings before speed is completed, it gives them map control. Although it has its own weaknesses, it is a good build but not an all-in. For example this build isn't meant to kill the Protoss outright, not even to destroy the nexus. Alicia's opinion is that he made the mistake of having his zealots+sentry too far away from his expansion.
In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are: 1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build 2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT 3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Q. Recently in ZvP, Zergs have been using a 2 base 8 Roach and mass Zerglings build vs 3 gate Sentry expand, what do you think about this strategy? After Alicia's loss vs IMLosira (Alicia and Min are in the same team) we had a team meeting concerning this build order. We concluded that it's a great anti-3Gate expand build. However there are several Protoss build orders that counter this push like fast Voids or DTs because Zergs are spending the gas on the 8 Roaches, the Lair tech is delayed and stalkers prevents Zerg scouting. Also if Protoss goes stalkers to pressure the lings before speed is completed, it gives them map control. Although it has its own weaknesses, it is a good build but not an all-in. For example this build isn't meant to kill the Protoss outright, not even to destroy the nexus. Alicia's opinion is that he made the mistake of having his zealots+sentry too far away from his expansion.
In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are: 1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build 2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT 3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Ah i was just about to post this too. I like how alot of pro's were calling this an all in (i think morrow and darkforce and trying to discredit it) i thik i will trust the slayers team over them though. It is as i thought it was a very strong build not meant to kill the protoss but meant to do damage and maybe destroy the natural. didnt realy feel all in to me i mean i guess it can turn into that if you think you have them you can just keep making units, but IMO it is a new zerg pressure build that zergs should be keeping in their arsenal. It also hits at a perfect time that stops the pressure or ghosting fromm the protoss player, if hes already heading out when it hits he will probably lose all his units.
I think you can drone behind this pressure really effectively and it will usually do enough damage that you wont see a counter attack or pressure for a while leaving you safe to drone and possibly grab a third i really like this build.
Yeah if the only builds that hard counter it are all-inish. It means that the build is really strong. Fast dts/void are bad builds because you die to a standard roach/hydra in the mid game.
We will see in the future what protosses are going to do against it, i'm really curious. I think a quick follow up with 5 gate can hold it but if the zerg can pick up most of the sentries with the agression, i think you are pretty good as a zerg because it delay everything for the protoss in the mid game.
On May 08 2011 01:10 ehalf wrote: In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are: 1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build 2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT 3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Didnt Alicia go for a fast Void Ray in one of the two games? It only makes the allin stronger, Void Rays can't stop the lings from wrecking the whole base in time and it means there's less gateway units.
On May 08 2011 01:10 ehalf wrote: In the interview of Min, he shows us the behind of these games. I think the key messages are: 1. This is a great anti-3Gate expand build 2. Has weakness against fast tech like Void /DT 3. Protoss need to adjust early strategy of sentry 3-gate FE in future games coz this anti-3gate is very strong
Didnt Alicia go for a fast Void Ray in one of the two games? It only makes the allin stronger, Void Rays can't stop the lings from wrecking the whole base in time and it means there's less gateway units.
No fast voidray in my opinion mean from one base (1gate-core-stargate). Alicia went stargate after the 3gates/sentry/expand. So ok you shut down any agression and maybe gain mapcontrol, but when a zerg see that he feels very safe to drone like crazy so i don't think it's a good build, it's a good build if you can catch your opponent off guard and he doesn't make a third queen because one voidray+2 phoenix can kill 2 queens.
On May 15 2011 02:25 QTIP. wrote: Well, after last nights GSL finals. I gotta say, this build doesn't look it dies to quick DT very easily.
It's a different build. Nestea got lair and more drones then attacked with roach ling and an overseer or two. Still, roach zergling is very powerful, but the build was not the same as the one Losira used to kill Alicia.
So far I think I have lost at least 5/5 times vs these roach/ling timing attack builds.
It's really strong and sim-city + forcefields can only take you so far. Some guy even pressured me lings while my expansion is building so that he can bait forcefields which worked quite well (I would've died if not) and I got up a cannon in time to save my ass until he he did the real timing attack and killed me.
On May 15 2011 02:25 QTIP. wrote: Well, after last nights GSL finals. I gotta say, this build doesn't look it dies to quick DT very easily.
It's a different build. Nestea got lair and more drones then attacked with roach ling and an overseer or two. Still, roach zergling is very powerful, but the build was not the same as the one Losira used to kill Alicia.
Yeah its obviously a bit different because he had to prepare for the DT's... but once he got the overseer, he just simply had way more units than InCa, not to mention the DT's meant less sentries so there was really no chance of holding it off.
nestea's build seems to incorporated +1 melee attack which also stops any stargate/dt timings.
my question is how to transition into defending a 4gate?
i think the reason it works so well is the fact that it makes forcefielding for protoss too hard, or makes them use too many which makes it hard to defend the zerg reinforcements.
they either have to forcefield the lings off their army, which is close range allowing roaches to move in position
or they forcefield the roaches away, which allows the lings to attack their army
or they forcefield both away, and then the ling + roach can just back off and wait for them to wear off
or they use double the forcefields to trap lings while cutting off roaches.
On May 15 2011 02:47 iChau wrote: I lost to this again.
So far I think I have lost at least 5/5 times vs these roach/ling timing attack builds.
It's really strong and sim-city + forcefields can only take you so far. Some guy even pressured me lings while my expansion is building so that he can bait forcefields which worked quite well (I would've died if not) and I got up a cannon in time to save my ass until he he did the real timing attack and killed me.
I *think* the real strength in this build is that the 3 gate expo pushes your expansion timing far back enough that the Zerg has the ability to get their expo up earlier unhindered AND you as protoss are not able to attack which allows for a fast 2 base saturation to occur. This means that before your expansion pays for itself the Zerg with a 2 base advantage whereas the protoss is behind economically. This aggressive build denies the protoss the option to be greedy and cut corners through teching and sentry investment to punish them for either expanding late or not pressuring enough.
I think 3 gate expo is still viable but the protoss cannot be so greedy as to make as many sentries as they do since the Zerg will run them over. Perhaps a 3 gate one gas expo with early pressure and only a few sentries is useful?
If you go forge before nexus off three gateways perhaps you can get your cannons up earlier and by chronoing units and only having 2 or three sentries you can hold?
all you really need are a couple of forcefields to save the cannon from ling attacks, and to keep your army from being flanked through a mineral line. with more stalker/zealot you can probably hold the roaches and range them and save the stalkers from lings. focusing a cannon or two on roaches would also help no?
Im still diamond and my micro is very poor as I havent put much focus on it as a player but I think that perhaps Protoss needs to start seeing 3 gate sentry expo as greedy (900 gas is a LOT of tech time and units which suck at attacking) and not as safe as we once assumed it was...
I really only run into problems executing this build when I delay my push long enough for the protoss to get up the forge and a cannon or two. I've kinda worked it out to where I get a quicker lair than losira, more gas, and start +1 before I start pumping roaches, which works out to a pretty good timing (in plat, at least) where +1 range finishes during the fight and I just end up rolling my opponent.
I really think if most of my protoss opponents had worked a forge into this a little earlier and used cannons to bolster the sentry/zealot/stalker force, I wouldn't have had so much success with this build recently.
I think people are stuck in the meta-game mind set, where 3-Gate Sentry FE is standard vs Zerg and is considered safe. But I think it's been shown in the past few weeks that it's fragile and is in fact not safe if the Zerg decides to do anything about it. Most Zergs however sit on their ass all game-long and pray that the enemy does not attack. All this strategy is about is exploiting the fact that the 3 Gate FE is fragile, and exploiting a powerful timing where the Zerg can build a lot of Roaches and Lings off his 2 bases.
I'm confused-- I just came back from a one month hiatus from playing the game and have played ~6 Zergs on ladder and not a single one used this build. Has it been "figured out" and I'm just behind on the metagame, or did I just hit the only 6 Z on ladder not doing this
On July 02 2011 10:43 DAttEBay0 wrote: incase you didnt notice snaphoo, he started this thread in april, things change.
Can you clarify why things have changed?
I've seen this build used by Moon and Sen at MLG Columbus and DreamHack, respectively, so it's clearly not totally obsolete, and even if it is, I'd like to understand why as it was giving me lots of trouble before I went on hiatus.
Understanding the metagame is a major part of getting better at the game itself, so your snideness aside, I would actually like to know.
I still use this build pretty often when the protoss tries expanding on maps like typhon peaks or meta without a good sim city. Actually I generally do it on these maps really often because the toss often doesn't want to go through the trouble of really making a secure set up on some of these maps. I see people move down their ramp and attempt to expand with like 3 sentries, and 1 zealot (and this is masters mind you), so its a no brainer to go for the roach/ling attack.
It is really easy to transition into, or not to do, based one what you see the protoss doing. If you are taking care when expanding (sometimes delaying it), getting proper cannon/sim city placement and getting enough units before expanding, then you probably won't see it too often.
The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote: The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote: The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
So this build got figured out by Forge FEs?
More that the newer maps are well suited for forge FEs, so there is less need to 3 gate expand over 16 nexus or FFE. Without the long period where the zerg is a base ahead, the roach ling all in really isn't nearly as threatening. I still see roach ling all ins a lot on open natural maps like xel naga.
On July 02 2011 11:41 DaemonX wrote: The problem as I see it is the Hallu research path seems rather weak when zerg is committing to early aggression. He'd be better off with a faster forge expand, and commit to economy for a while instead of trying to poke out with a tiny harass force without any idea what Z is doing, just assuming that Z is playing heavy-eco.
Alicia is just out of the metagame loop, trying to blind abuse a greedy zerg style that has already gone out of fashion. That's all that happened. It doesn't say anything about the matchup other than both race's styles are becoming more informed and sophisticated.
Oh wow, you can't play blind as protoss till 7 mins anymore and giving up map control actually matters? Yeesh.
So this build got figured out by Forge FEs?
Well, sort of the opposite - this build exploits protoss who try to cut corners on their FE. It isn't 'figured out' by FFE, FFE is what protoss stepped away from to a faster greedier style that nets you econ AND decent tech catch-up.
If you don't want to pony up the early cash for cannons, your tech can keep pace with the zerg and you get an amazing lead - which is what zergs have been complaining about.
This build just exploits that sort of greedy play - go back to safe FFE and you don't have to worry about it.
If you're asking for advice on how to stay without cannons and still stop this aggression - I have no idea - and I hope noone else does either, cuz it's bullshit if you can do that
This was figured out because protoss started doing a better sim city. It stopped working because we started to make a forge then nexus and then cannon (sometimes 2) and with a wall at the front. Protoss just started making the forge before nexus and then started to get better forcefield control. Thats really it :/ We should try not to bump months old threads too :/
EPT
GG" Making the units first and then the drones is a slight economic sacrifice, but it comes with insurance: map awareness at the very least, map control and a pinned opponent most cases, and with good control you can actually do damage like Losira did, even against an excellent opponent.
He simply took some risks in these two games and Losira punished him brutally for it. Which is great imo - zerg need to be better at punishing risktakers, and not just sit on their lazy asses and macro macro macro.
