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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote:
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on.
I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 29 2011 11:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm confused by the DT thing though... why would you go 1 base DT? I guess it's like you said though, he'll already have detection. Maybe he was just wondering around / theorycrafting / stating just a possibility rather than giving the "counter"?
Yes DT hard counter the build Losira did. It's very unlikely he would have detection out by the time the dt got to his base, and either way the late lair means he's boned anywhere away from his spore crawler/s.That's all he was saying afaik.
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On April 29 2011 11:24 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote:
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it. Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on. I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
I don't see your need to bash a player that is better than you and I doubt if you were in his position you could hold it off as well. I agree with what he said in that you do need a cannon earlier to hold this off. Their push simply comes with a ton of units and the mix of roaches with a ton of speedlings works wonders and can be reinforced quite quickly as speedlings are quite fast. The push leaves zerg with a ton of minerals as well and an easy way to get a third and maintain your advantage if you cause some damage. Also, in the Losira game alicia had the best forcefields you could possibly have in that scenario but still couldn't hold as it was a somewhat open space in the natural.
Answer is probably an earlier inbase forge to allow for quicker cannon production at natural I'm guessing.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 29 2011 11:34 shouri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 11:24 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote:
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it. Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on. I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that. I don't see your need to bash a player that is better than you and I doubt if you were in his position you could hold it off as well. I agree with what he said in that you do need a cannon earlier to hold this off. Their push simply comes with a ton of units and the mix of roaches with a ton of speedlings works wonders and can be reinforced quite quickly as speedlings are quite fast. The push leaves zerg with a ton of minerals as well and an easy way to get a third and maintain your advantage if you cause some damage. Also, in the Losira game alicia had the best forcefields you could possibly have in that scenario but still couldn't hold as it was a somewhat open space in the natural. Answer is probably an earlier inbase forge to allow for quicker cannon production at natural I'm guessing.
Dude its not bashing, He is judging the strategy based on one game he played vs IdrA were Minigun forgot to pay attention to his army..
Can you read? He did not notice IdrAs units were at his natural and let IdrA surround the entire force without getting of one forcefield off. I WAS stating A FACT !!!
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Yes DT hard counter the build Losira did. It's very unlikely he would have detection out by the time the dt got to his base, and either way the late lair means he's boned anywhere away from his spore crawler/s.That's all he was saying afaik.
Ah, thanks. I realize that by the time a DT gets in before any spores, it would be too late and a lot of damage can be done, but I was thinking he could make an Overseer. I didn't realize the Lair was so late.
Btw, thanks Morrow for your contributions 
Edit: ^Agree, it's not bashing. It's criticism, although perhaps a bit disrespectful with the "LOL"
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On April 29 2011 11:24 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote:
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it. Well I saw that game. LOL you didn't even use forcefields to block units. Its like you didn't even notice he was at your natural. he surrounded your army and then you noticed what was going on. I remember the game because IdrA joked about how FF is the only thing Protoss needs to win and they even fail at that.
Yea, I wasn't paying attention to my nat when he attacked. But 100% PERFECT forcefields would not have saved me, he had twice if not 3 times my army.
and no, I am not biasing it all on one game
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Protoss scout is so much easier than Zerg scout, how is that even hard to counter?? =.=
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For people saying that a protoss is able to defend this, it also provides two crucial things.
1 - The Protoss must use FF to defend this rush, this is important for the Zerg as an army of full-energy Sentries is very dangerous which sets up for easy mid-game pushes either to take out an expansion or to do a full-out 6 gate.
2 - If the Zerg sees the Protoss is going to be able to defend it, the Zerg can opt to just bait some FF and then sit outside the Protoss base. Since the Zerg's third is going up, he can freely drone. If the Protoss goes too far to attack, the Zerg can run in to attack the Protoss forcing the Protoss to retreat whilst giving the Zerg an economic advantage through droning.
EDIT: It is important to keep some Roaches alive in this fleet as a pure Zergling force is not good enough to draw a Protoss back to their base. Zerglings are very easy to deal with by using Zealots or 1 or 2 FF. Roaches allow the Zerg to either kill a walling Zealot or Pylons to allow Zerglings to run through.
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It's basically zerg's revenge for protoss being able to 4-gate/6-gate.
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Morrow how can you say zerg has no 100% safe builds? all builds are safe if you have map control / good scouting and i think zerg has the best of that, overlords, map control from 2min plus , I would feel safe if i could scout the front every half min to see army count etc..
See, that's the thing -- they're only safe if you gain it yourself. It's not really the build order that gives you map control, or allows you to scout well, but the map, the decisions the players make, you opponent's strategies, etc. I think that's what he meant by no 100% safe builds, since it's what you do with the build to make sure you're ahead and "safe". After all, if there was a 100% safe build, Zerg "would" win 100% games. I think that's what he means, just a small difference in his definitions from yours.
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On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
*edit* nvm, dont want to flood the strat forums.
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I feel bad that Morrow is being proven correct about his reason for not posting much in the strategy forum even after such brillaint posts.
People saying that Losira's build was clearly not "all-in" because he was ahead economically are missing the fact that he was all-in in a different way - behind on gas and tech, such that against the safer 3-gate expand into placing the forge at the natural into "3-base timing attack X" would kill him 100%. Not to mention he is also "all-in" in the sense that DTs kill him outright.
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On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote:
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it. Idras build order is different than what losira did in g1 (cant watch g2 but im assuiming its the same thing). I saw the game you're referring to, idras build comes earlier and its basically an all-in
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@sc2olorin
Then is any build that sacrifices economy an all-in? I'm getting really tired of how easy people these days consider a strategy an all-in. A poke is an all-in. Fast tech is an all-in. Why then isn't a big greedy econ build also an all-in? Is any Terran attack an all-in? What kind of a strategy is not all-in? They all sacrifice something and they are all susceptible to lose to something, like Losira's build, which was to pressure the Protoss and possibly win the game if the Protoss was too greedy. He was ahead in econ, so it was not an all-in, since again he was ahead in econ. As long as he traded equally, the situation would be equal or slightly favored for the Zerg. How would the "hard to transition" part of the all-in term be applied at all if he has a better economy than the Protoss? Also do you expect Terran and Protoss to just sit there the whole game and let the Zerg grow ahead of them?
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I would argue exactly the point that "all-in" is the wrong term to be using. However everyone insists on using it, so I tried to define it in a different context in my previous post. What I meant by all-in would be any strategy which is not 100% safe against the entire range of possible openings your opponent could be doing.
Losira commits to his strategy (the 8 or 9 roaches plus 30 lings plus a delay in lair tech and gas) before he knows whether Alicia will be doing a super safe 3-gate expansion build (whereby he creates a wall-in on one side of his natural with either a forge or a gateway + pylon AND does not poke out to pressure without first scouting what the zerg is doing) OR a DT into expansion build.
Since both those of those builds either cripple or kill Losira's build, then yes, his build was an "all-in" of sorts, aka a risky build.
It was a highly refined, exploitative build by Losira which if Alicia had been playing non-risky himself would not have worked.
The problem with SC2 right now IMO is that there are too few openings in every matchup which allow you to pressure while also keeping your perceived opening range as wide as possible to your opponent. This means that to play safe in the early game is to also play predictable, such that if your opponent knows this about you then he can counter it blindly. So while you could be using an optimal opening in some single game scenario, the mere fact that there are so few safe openings make it possible for players to begin blindly countering said safe openings and gaining advantages that way.
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On April 29 2011 15:09 sc2olorin wrote:
Losira commits to his strategy (the 8 or 9 roaches plus 30 lings plus a delay in lair tech and gas) before he knows whether Alicia will be doing a super safe 3-gate expansion build (whereby he creates a wall-in on one side of his natural with either a forge or a gateway + pylon AND does not poke out to pressure without first scouting what the zerg is doing) OR a DT into expansion build.
I disagree. I don't think he committs to the attack before he makes the speedlings, and he doesn't make most of the speedlings until the roaches are halfway across the map. By then he's been constantly scouting the front of Alicia's base, seen that he's going 3 sentry expand and seen that he's not dropping any buildings on the low ground.
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Can someone explain to me how a DT expand counters Losira's build? A DT expand has like 3 Sentries and a Zealot at their expo when that build hits, 3 DT's at that point might do some damage, but Zerg is going to win the base race when he has an army that is x5 as big as yours, regardless of the fact that your army can't be hit back
Protoss scout is so much easier than Zerg scout, how is that even hard to counter?? =.=
Because Protoss scouts are available at certain timings. You are pretty much blind after your first scouting Probes die till the 7min~ mark when you have hallucination, blind as in, if you move out you can die blind. Maybe it is possible if you chrono nonstop Warpgate tech AND hallucination, but it is cutting it.
It isn't really possible to scout this build before it hits, and it is going to be even harder come next patch with the Warpgate research time increase which will subsequently delay when hallucination is done.
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High level masters here.
I've been coming up against this build alot before gsl and a shit ton now. It's horrible, I think the biggest problem is trying to counter something that might or might not be coming (scouting this before it hits is hard with the ling map control).
The thing is, even if you manage to hold it off (and I can if the Zerg messes up) you usually come out behind...
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Losira worked in an evo chamber on a timing that would've stopped any DT harrass in the second game imo. DTs will stop the timing attack for sure; but it won't win you the game. Also, rushing for DTs will severely cut into your sentry numbers, which will be fairly obvious to the ling scout. Which is probably why he didn't do it in the first game.
I like Morrow's input, it's very informative, but he does take some things for granted because "they've always been that way". Just because a 3gate sentry expand has been supersafe for X months doesn't mean there isn't a way to beat it. I felt like Losira hit his timings just right, and he did it twice with literally exactly the same timings, so I don't think it was "just lucky" as someone else pointed out.
I'm certain that if you don't hit the perfect timings that Losira managed, you'd be behind, but I feel like it works out quite nicely if you do. Even if all you do is get some forcefield energy out of his sentries and you don't kill a single unit, you have excessive map control and your third should be supersafe assuming you dropped that evo chamber as well (just drop a spore at it when it finishes). I don't think it's possible to hold without delaying the stargate, as you can't quite support all 3 gates then until the transfer of probes is complete.
Also, I don't feel like you're positively placing yourself behind on tech. The Lair finishes at 10:30ish in the first game. I'm fairly certain that if you don't go through with the attack as hard as Losira did (you don't scout the same weaknesses), you can get another gas and get that earlier as well. Due to his massive map control and the fact that Alicia is all out of sentry energy he can safely drone for a good couple of minutes off 3base.
Like I wrote in the OP, it's up to the zerg to make the decision on whether to committ to the attack or not. He holds all the cards. He knows whether the protoss is placing his buildings on the low ground, he knows what units the protoss are making, and the protoss is gonna have to start assuming that this attack is coming. He has to make units constantly out of 3 gates until he has a decent army out; no skipping units to make earlier tech, or he might just be dead to this timing attack. Going through with the timing attack might not always be a good idea; but it's an awesome way to punish a protoss that cuts corners or doesn't semi-walloff.
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Losira didn't have to worry about DTs since he saw a bunch of sentries, which ate up Alicia's gas and didn't leave any for a DT rush. That's not particularly useful for other games, but it's important to consider for these two. It's entirely possible that Losira either did the build as a reaction to seeing sentries and bad simcity (as opposed to thinks just kind of working out), or that he prepared the build to counter Alicia.
Either way, just because it worked, and even if it was 100% reaction and not a coin flip, that doesn't mean it's a standard build that we can all start using regularly in our ZvPs.
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EPT
