metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol..
That mineral build up is there because you cant spend the money fast enough---3/4 Chronoboosted warpgates with Cannons WILL NOT spend 2 base income. In most cases it is put into Probes, Tech and more gateways, none of which would ever be up in time by the time that Roach/Ling rips you apart.
People put forges in their main because sometimes it is very easy to have it sniped and the downtime where you can't put down Cannons can mean the end of you. I've being doing it myself lately, but I do agree he should have something there, like another Gateway or double/triple pylon
I don't understand your point. He had not enough gateway to use his money, so he let it pass 500, but that's not because he played horribly, that's because he had nothing to do with the money anyway...
He made a mystake if he had 900 this early without loosing any production building, there is nothing else to add. If he was playing as good as he should, he would have put down other production building or just spent his money in trying to tech up.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
hmmm ok you've just killed my enthusiasm...
maybe it's just a good build to have in the book for some situations, i don't know
Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
for the past several weeks i have been winning about every zvp where the protoss went for a 3 gate FE just by doing a roach/ling or roach-only allin as soon as i can confirm that FE going up. Sure Losira has a nice build but after watching the games im sure he just got lucky with it. The toss moving out with such little force without having any idea what zerg is doing is a free invitation to get his army stomped. At least it costs him a lot of forcefields/sentries which he desperately needs to defend his FE. If Alicia was going DT FE i feel like he would have had that much less forcefields. So there is an opening before the first DTs come out (but obviously if you just play the BO and not react to what your opponent does you deserve losing anyway).
Besides all that, i feel like fake pressure would have been the way to beat this build. Clear 1-2 watch towers, run home before any nasty stuff comes along. The zerg would have to sacrifice a lot of economy in case of a real attack but since you didnt spend that much on forcefields yourself you should be fine if there is an attack from zerg incoming.
So in conclusion (and in my humble opinion of course), this build worked only because Alicia didn't have decent Simcity, wasted units/forcefields in useless attacks which he committed too much to and his army composition seemed way too sentry heavy so he couldn't really deal with roaches at all (at least in the first game). I would rather advice on doing what Red did vs Tyler in the match someone posted a few pages ago, if you decide as a zerg to punish a toss for 3 gate expand go all in with Roach/Ling as soon as you can confirm his attempt to do so.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can time the attack earlier (less drones) so that it hits before protoss has a wall or the chance to start cannons, and it does kill people who drop nexus when they have 1 zealot and 2 sentries. The interesting thing about this imo is not losira's build in particular, but exploration of ways to exploit the fact that protoss is blind for a window of time, so the mere fact that certain all-ins exist will force them to play safer making them weaker to 2 or 3 base allins. I don't think you should dismiss these efforts as simply huge risks that paid off, it's similar to how the development of the 6gate helped protoss immensely by wiping out muta play from the metagame.
your wrong 3warpgate is safe to 100% vs roach ling allins even if u hit an earlier timing theres a reason pvz standard is 3warpgate expo and if it wasnt safe everyone wouldnt say it was safe. its been safe for over a half year... the only way you can exploit this blind time of toss is to drone like crazy and hope he doesnt attack with 3gate or 4gate with nexus cancel. or dt into expo for that matter. this moment of the game zerg is alot more blind than toss is lol. if u wanan be safe with 3warpgate expo. just warp in units and build probes constantly and add a forge to ur natural to block off. its like the safest most figured out build in the entire zvp matchup tt this is why i rarely post on the strategy forum because most of u cant take my word for it, not even something simple and really figured out thing like this. all i did was drop facts about the game and its not up to agree or disagree, its just math
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
I definitely agree. I tested this a bunch of times with my teammate today, had the same 9roach timing and everything. If the p has decent simcity at his natural and has a cannon up (which you should make blindly, imo) it's very managable. It might be tougher to hold on a map like xel naga where the distance between your nexus and your ramp is longer because the pylon-forge block doesn't extend as far.
Alicia also made the mistake of poking out with that zealot/sentry force.. If you're going to do that, you can't have made a forge.. it's a very specific poke with 6 sentry and 4 zealot, chrono boost on the 3 warpgates to get the zealots out after you get sentries warped in. If you just push willy-nilly into the center with that measley army (especially on such a huge map cross position) you're going to get stomped if the zerg made any units. So yes, it was a risky build by losira but alicia was also playing pretty risky (and less than optimul, clearly).
To be honest, I have no idea why the forge was in the main. It makes absolutely no sense; yes the forcefields were great but he had to make three to close the gap between ramp and nexus when he should have needed 1 if he made pylon-forge at the natural.
I think nobody is saying that this build is not manageable (3gate expand with forge+gate or 2 gate at the natural to make a choke with proper unit control and you are good). For me the main question is, does this build give you an edge in the mid game against a 3gate expand.
Because like the op said, he had a good amount of drones on the mineral line(ofc it's not he biggest eco you can have at this point), a third and he was safe to drone. The only bad point of this build is the low tech.
the whole point of the build is -to kill sentrys or make them waste alot of energy -make sure they werent risking (aka not buildings units constantly, forge in natural, cannon) -stop any cancel nexus 4/5gate builds -punishing a fake pushing protoss (where they push out halfway take towers and walks home to force zerg defense) weakness -dies to dt -falls behind if toss was safe and u couldnt engage -u engage and lose most ur units
if toss just gets forge cannon, then voidray and rally phoenix he denies 3rd base 100% and possibly even wins game right there...
or toss didnt build stargate, goes for the 3colossus 5gate+1 timing and kills u cause ur tech was too late, aka no gas or corruptors
This is why you SHOULD post in the strategy section. Great post.
Credit to LosirA, but this roach/ling allin is something that should never work against Protoss in its current form. 3gate-expo should always be 100% safe against Zerg.
On April 29 2011 08:09 Minigun wrote: Idra did this to me the other day, it's extremely hard to hold if they hit right before cannon starts warping in. I'm not sure if I just need to take a later expansion or what. I haven't had enough experience against it.
Yeah..
Sick of the people who act as if this build is some trivial joke to defend if you "do the right things".
It is not, even if you are prepared for it, it is still quite difficult to hold. Regardless of how well you are executing your build and how well are you prepare for it, one or two bad forcefields is all you need to lose your expo.
I can't believe some people are calling this all in. With that aggression Losira was able to secure a 3rd and enough time to drone super hard.And he was never behing in worker count IIRC
I thought it was a good build. It obviously crushes 3 gate fe pretty well or at least puts them really far behind like in game 1. artosis said some stuff about dt's crushing it since they would still be on 2-3 base hatchery tech. I liked the build and didn't think it was all-in ish or cheesy. game 1 was held off but by the time it was over he was on 3 base good economy and great creep spread. Seems tough for the toss to hold or know its coming.
On April 29 2011 06:42 MorroW wrote: terminus he just wasted a ton of energy in middle by panic on top of macroing badly and putting the forge in the main base
metal he just macroed horribly and again forge in main base instead. he had 900 minerals lol...
not only shouldnt this build work in the first place if toss makes units and forge in the natural on top of it u autodie vs DT which btw losira was coinflipping the odds of (which is a good choice because zvp is so difficult and u have to take huge risks like that)
amazing play by losira and really bad play by alicia. the build is more relying on toss being bad and/or risky rather than being a correct decision vs 3warpgate expansion, not very solid and it worked way better than it should have
3warpgate expo is 100% safe. so is forge expand. zerg has no 100% safe build that can scout everything and respond to everything in time.
OP's you write, he had an evo chamber so he had potential to build spore crawlers incase any dts arrive. do you realize your dead unless your spore is a bout 50% complete when the dts arrive?
nothing more to talk about than that. its just sad to see every single zvp in gsl zerg is taking ridiculously big risks and even when they get away with it they still loose if toss isnt making blunders like alicia on terminus (expanding and attacking zergs 4th at the same time with sentry immortal vs masshydraling)
You can't be serious...I think what you mean to say is zerg has no 100% safe build that allows them to play greedy and survive against everything. There's nothing greedy about a 3 gate sentry expand at all. It's safe because you sacrifice a very fast expo and early economic power for the insurance you get out of the heavy sentries. The idea is to get on 2 bases "safely" not quickly... if the protoss wanted to be greedy and try to keep pace with the zerg he would do a 15 nexus or even a forge nexus. Forge expand is NOT completely safe... it may be safe to some of your early timings, but are you that clueless as to not understand the ramifications of delaying a ground army until the 7 or 8 minute mark at the earliest? Zerg has 100% safe builds but they dont involve expanding at 14 fking food before putting a pool down. On a side note, do you not realize that aggression provides the safety you are looking for? Have you never heard the cliche the best defense is a good offense?
Bad play from alicia? Alicia played fine and while I agree with your analysis of the forge placement I don't think its fair to say, minus a couple mistakes, that alicia didn't play at least a solid style. His decision to push out on terminus was suicidal, but honestly the game was over when he used all those forcefields early on and STILL took damage. He was insurmountably behind his only chance was to pressure that new hatchery.
It's like some of you pro gamers rely on mechanics so much that you dont think you have to use your brain. Your post is further evidence to me that if pro-gaming was more competitive (as in, more people played SC2 and were willing to dedicate their lives to it) enough brilliant minds would emerge to make you "inside the box" type thinkers into nothing more than a spec.
You're a great player, but your opinion is 100% off-base and wrong I'm sorry.
Morrow how can you say zerg has no 100% safe builds? all builds are safe if you have map control / good scouting and i think zerg has the best of that, overlords, map control from 2min plus , I would feel safe if i could scout the front every half min to see army count etc..
If protoss now make 2 cannons every game just incase their build hits they will be behind instantly be behind because those 300 minerals may not be required if its heavy droning, and you wont find out if your wrong or right until the 7 min mark when you get: A) hallucation finishes - and i know i am only a master but by the time that finishes if i do not have cannons up they are walking to my base with roaches as i send the phonix out so i see it and think crap i am dead unless perfect ff B) stargate (costs units and if the build DOES hit your dead because you dont have enough ground to hold C) robo??? don't know how viable this is.
and if your wrong and they have took a 3rd or mass droned you have missed some vital push timings and your in a rather hard spot because you could be behind big time in econ,.. thats just my 2c
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
It cheesiness depending on how many drones you cut. If you don't do enough damage early on like crippling the toss in some way (i.e. taking out a lot of sentries/forcing a ton of ffs) then you lose. If Alicia just played a little safer (Not poking so far with his first round of sentries) not wasting his forcefields and if he had put his forge at his nat to make a better simcity he would've been completely fine. Not saying this is easy to defend as toss (I've had trouble defending against it), but this is definitely a cheesy opening (again its cheesiness depends on how many drones you sack).
I think if this build gets really popular I'm going to start off my wall at the natural with two pylons instead of one. The reason he lost both games was because he could hardly ever get a cannon running by the time the attack hit is base due to it being unpowered.
You know what, I feel like I'm undermining some knowledgeable people here. So, I would like to make a request.
Could anyone provide a replay where someone else has successfully held it off in a way that you feel like you are behind (as Zerg)?
I don't understand your point. He had not enough gateway to use his money, so he let it pass 500, but that's not because he played horribly, that's because he had nothing to do with the money anyway...
He made a mystake if he had 900 this early without loosing any production building, there is nothing else to add. If he was playing as good as he should, he would have put down other production building or just spent his money in trying to tech up.
At the stage of the game he was in he should be warping in Stalkers, not Sentries, Warping in sentries give you a mineral build up
You should also be chrono boosting probes as well as not losing units, so your supply starts to get used up very quickly and you need to drop pylons in rapid succession, but when you aren't using up supply fast nor building probes, you lose a mineral dump.
Just think about it, Warping in two Stalkers as well as making two porbes already means you need to place a Pylon, when you are chronoboosting two Nexus's you are using up supply insanely quickly, 2 supply+100minerals on probes alone every 14seconds.
If you are also warping in additional sentries to survive then you also make it impossible to dump minerals via Tech,
It is a very tense situation, you live or die by forcefields + kiting...at points it is not possible to look at your base to place buildings while you are getting hit at the natural.
I'd love to see anyone in Alicias position use up that money as people think he should have here as well as try defend that natural, because that would be a feat
Everytime I've held that off I've always been floating minerals (500-1200+)--but I am also pretty awful compared to Losira or Alicia but it is not as easy as you think.
On April 29 2011 09:42 Jayrod wrote: Zerg has 100% safe builds but they dont involve expanding at 14 fking food before putting a pool down.
Zerg expands early because of larva, don't you understand that? Being able to mine from that expansion is just a bonus.
Anything that doesn't involve a fairly early hatch is going to be super weak against any type of early aggression (with the sole exception of 2gate and cannon rush). We also don't benefit from trying to hold a ramp since we don't have forcefields and our units are waaay better out in the open.
It's like saying toss is being greedy for building gateways.
I've been of the opinion for a couple months now that the 3gate sentry expand is simply bad vs zerg. I dunno, it never works out no matter how perfectly i execute it, if the Zerg is on his game he always seems to get ahead some way.
Jayrod, Morrow knows a lot more about the matchup than you do... so you are just going to get flamed for saying his opinion is "100% off-base and wrong." 100%? Really?
Others have mentioned this before, but Alicia lost because of bad sim-city, including forge and pylon placement. There are standard positions for these buildings that reduce the amount of forcefields necessary to defend. I'm not saying it's entirely easy to defend roach/ling, but practice against it 10 times and you will see it's quite doable. If you do cut corners though, you will get punished. Example: + Show Spoiler +
I think it may be as simple as having a couple cannons to guard your natural. We saw that Alicia actually had more probes than drones, and only 3 lower (32 to 29 i think?) after he sacrifices some probes to help kill the last roaches. As the Zerg was pumping army, I think the Protoss may need to cut a couple probes (if needed) to put down a couple of cannons.
I'm confused by the DT thing though... why would you go 1 base DT? I guess it's like you said though, he'll already have detection. Maybe he was just wondering around / theorycrafting / stating just a possibility rather than giving the "counter"? I didn't watch it (game 2?) ofc, so idk what he really said and what he meant.
EPT
