On April 29 2011 03:28 AimForTheBushes wrote: 1. In a FFE, protoss usually has only 2 or 3 units (counting the one cannon as a unit) that can actually do damage, depending on how many sentries/ticklers he makes. It's not startling that a decent-sized ling/roach push has the potential to do a lot of damage, especially if FFs aren't perfect.
2. How is a 2 base timing push, followed with taking a 3rd, considered cheese?
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
you really think expanding while attacking is cheesy? take a look at game 1 and 2. does a similar build. always up on supply on toss. lol lol
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..
Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.
If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well: - he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map... - his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money. - after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.
In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot. Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.
One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
Agreed, anyone who has been watching idra's stream these past 2 weeks can see that he does this with pretty good consistency vs protoss and it is a fairly all-inISH build, not completely, but many times if he fails outright he will just leave. This is what top zergs are already doing to open against protoss expos.
Lol this is not a future, I've seen this build for so long already. I think Alicia lost b/c he didn't have a good wall and enough cannon, his VRs was out of position.
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
On April 29 2011 03:18 vojnik wrote: i see sheth do this kind of timing a lot
Again, any kind of link would be awesome. I'll add it to the op if it pans out.
i dont have an exact link because i saw it several times on his stream recently he released lots of replays and was planning on watching them if i find this in any i will post it, would be really nice if sheth can shed some light on this topic tho since he knows his timings best :D Also depending on the situation he drones while attacking or adds more units if situation seems like he can do more dmg. Also think he explains this sort of earlier agression in Mr Bitters 12 weeks with the pros, vVvTitan also has similar timing a bit earlier even with 5 roaches + lings which was also on 12 weeks with the pros.
I completely disagree with the people saying that a wall in would not have halted most of that pressure. If the cannon had been able to finish with power, the entire battle would have been different. By placing pylon for the wall back by the mineral line and a gateway+forge between the ramp and nexux, only about 1/3 of the FFs would have been needed to keep out the zerglings. If the zerg chooses to use the lings to take the wall down faster, they will likely lose >5 lings which isn't worth 1 gateway or forge if you are committing to the attack. If they only attack with the roaches, the cannon finishes with power, or the roaches are attacking from within stalker range, either of which would let the protoss hold, especially if he wasn't forced to use as many force fields early.
Couldn't stay awake long enough for Losira's games but definitely watching the VODs when I get a chance. His good decisions make his games educational entertainment for newbie zergs like me. For those posters citing his low drone count at some points in the game, I think it's sort of a strawman argument to say his build is cheese. He's not going all-in to win the game because he can't play macro, he wanted to get his 3rd pumping and early-ish roach ling aggression looked like the safest way to get there. The way zerg econ works, I think it is important to look at drone counts not only at one time, but also one production cycle later. A lot of zergs have died to the old "oops, I made a round of drones, and he made a bunch of units near my base GG" Making the units first and then the drones is a slight economic sacrifice, but it comes with insurance: map awareness at the very least, map control and a pinned opponent most cases, and with good control you can actually do damage like Losira did, even against an excellent opponent.
Thanks OP for highlighting the games. Looking closely at what Losira managed to scout, when he pushed, and when he made the transition back into drones can really help.
On April 29 2011 03:48 Big J wrote: some things about the analysis:
game1 alicas Forcefields were the only thing he did right imo: -) he moved out on a really big map crosspositions, with a rather small group of units -) after the attack they were nearly even in workers (~30 both) as Tastosis said in the cast, but Losira droned hard AND teched hard, while alicia only started scouting then, playing completly blind until that point -) he build a fake void ray, to trick Losira into Hydralisks (which Losira fell for!) but didnt rush to colossi and rather got some immortals and a third
at this point Losiras tech+drone gamble (he had mapcontrol, so it wasnt such a big gamble though a 6gate might have broken him) just had brought him way ahead and he hit before the colossus count got out of hand
game2: -) 1gate,1forge,1core,1stargate + nexus is already a risky build, no wall at the 2nd makes it even harder to hold -) his void ray was out of position and his second stargate unit was a phoenix which was just the wrong unit
Protoss sort of HAS to move out that early, or the zerg will gain an immense economic lead going into the midgame if he's droning. He didn't actually lose anything other than 3 (or was it 4?) forcefields on that encounter at the XNT, and as I stated earlier he also had enough energy left to FF the entire battle following that.
The drone difference was 50 vs 35 after the first engagement in game 1 I believe (I noted it in my initial summary - you can check the actual VOD if you want). Losira had 3 hatches with queens pumping drones and the speedlings over to control the map and plenty of time to react to Alicia moving out, which he obviously couldn't since his army was crippled.
I sincerely doubt Losira fell for the void ray as it was firing on overlords and not doing any obvious damage, and it was fairly obvious that Alicia was just giving it away to the queens. Noone at code s level would micro a void ray that badly. He wanted the detection and the hydras regardless, because he knew that the only way he might lose at this point was either to DTs or mass void ray. He had enough of an economic lead that he could play it safe.
Alicia didn't have the economy to support a 6gate until way, way later. He had barely enough to support constant warpins from the 3 gates he had as well as probes and adding the robo. Losira was playing SAFE by droning that hard, not risky. He knew that Alicia wouldn't be able to pressure him without rebuilding his sentries and letting them gain energy.
Game 2 isn't really a viable discussion since he went stargate and I doubt this is actually holdable off 3gates without constant warpins, and I only really mentioned it since it'd be stupid to leave it out completely.
Destiny has done this build also, he gets 36 drones, 8 roaches+burrow/claws(no speed) and about 25-30 lings then pushes. He uses the lings for the run by distraction by running round the nexus, then crashes in with his roaches from behind and snipes all the sentries.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
QFT
It's only super effective if the protoss is late on walling in his natural or is playing poorly imo.
As was mentioned before this is not revolutionary. It's a really solid pressure build that counters a lot of what toss does. You tend to be able to get map control and you can even transition into mutas at some point. And the hilarious thing about it is that when I refined the build in single player and started using it on ladder, what did I immediately face? I got blind DT rushed 2 games in a row, and lost horribly. Especially on the big maps it is really hard to scout the DTs in time so it's pretty much a super hard counter. If you use it regularly you probably want to work in an evo chamber somewhere as a standard timing it out before DTs show up. However, it's still hard to get spores down in time without specifically knowing they're coming and it pretty much ends your attack at that point and you have to regroup and transition into lair and tech. I would happily invite DT rushes every game if I know they're coming and I haven't tested it a lot but I think it might be a comfortable way to actually go mutas in ZvP because at that point you know a few things: a big gateway unit attack is not that threatening, investing that much gas in DTs they'll have no stargate and if they do they're really allin, and they're going to be behind in bases so economically mutas become a lot more feasible.
I wish people would stop saying "x has done this before too" and either a) not provide a replay/vod, or b) proceed to say he did something similar, but slightly different.
If the attack hits at 8 minutes or later, it's not the same build; it's too slow. If the attack hits with 5 or 6 roaches and with less drones up, it's not the same; it's too all-in.
It's like comparing a 3gate with a 4gate. Just because he "had roaches and speedlings and attacked first" doesn't mean it's the same build. If someone else has done a build where the 8 roaches and ~30 lings show up at the protoss' doorstep right as the very first stalkers get warped in (around 7:30), feel free to correct me with a link to said replay/vod/buildorder/whatever.
I've not seen anything as refined as what Losira executed today, and I sincerely doubt holding onto your natural with nothing but a 3gate sentry expand into a forge is actually viable unless it's Crevasse or something.
On April 29 2011 04:35 truthless wrote: I wish people would stop saying "x has done this before too" and either a) not provide a replay/vod, or b) proceed to say he did something similar, but slightly different.
If the attack hits at 8 minutes or later, it's not the same build; it's too slow. If the attack hits with 5 or 6 roaches and with less drones up, it's not the same; it's too all-in.
It's like comparing a 3gate with a 4gate. Just because he "had roaches and speedlings and attacked first" doesn't mean it's the same build. If someone else has done a build where the 8 roaches and ~30 lings show up at the protoss' doorstep right as the very first stalkers get warped in (around 7:30), feel free to correct me with a link to said replay/vod/buildorder/whatever.
I've not seen anything as refined as what Losira executed today, and I sincerely doubt holding onto your natural with nothing but a 3gate sentry expand into a forge is actually viable unless it's Crevasse or something.
Yeah i think sadly most of people on this thread doesn't understand the difference between what Losira did and the all-ins they saw from others players or what they are facing on the ladder...
It's hilarious that people are considering this an all-in build, Losira had 2 saturated bases when he produces 1 round, and only 1 round of roaches... they are cheep units, and producing them is not committing you to any rigid build paths, they are just there to poke and take out a greedy protoss. once he sees that he can just win the game he starts pumping more lings, if thats not the case he is getting his third and continues droning.
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote: Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...
Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
I disagree. You can't really scout it coming, so you'd obviously have to make the wall preemptively. Which means the zerg can scout it. Which gives him a choice of going through with the attack or not. Assuming he does go through with it (I would), he can use that wall of gateways/forges against the protoss. 8 roaches can drop a building pretty darn fast, and the Protoss won't have more than 3-4 stalkers to defend initially, and they'll be trapped behind their own buildings. It becomes a micro war at this point and the roaches have the upper hand by having the buildings as a secondary target to fall back to if the stalkers back off.
He can even choose to rally further roaches at this point, rather than speedlings, since the wall is only delaying his attack, not preventing it. Once he does bust the wall, you're in the same situation as you were in without the wall, with a few more units, but without your production facilities, and he has more units as well. Constant rallied units would eventually kill you at this point since your production can't keep up with his.
That's the beauty of this imo, you force the metagame to a point where Protoss has to expand behind a wall in order to be safe or he'll get aggro'd to death. While that doesn't put protoss behind by all that much it does eliminate Nexus cancel builds like we've seen in MC vs July or Socke vs IdrA, because if a zerg sees protoss expanding without a wall (like you would do if you're going to cancel) he'll be making a bunch of units anyways. Also, if the protoss is going for Stargate or DT, you get a little bit of forewarning because he'll need to use that tech to defend, which means you have more time to react to it. If you have an evo chamber already complete you'll probably be able to get some spores before DT's/air arrives.
i don't think it's the future... It's more of a representation of how the games turn out when 2 realllly good players are playing each other. We're used to sloppy and crappy players playing each other and making a lot of mistakes so this might seem like something new to the untrained eye.
On April 29 2011 05:20 spacebarbarian wrote: It's hilarious that people are considering this an all-in build, Losira had 2 saturated bases when he produces 1 round, and only 1 round of roaches... they are cheep units, and producing them is not committing you to any rigid build paths, they are just there to poke and take out a greedy protoss. once he sees that he can just win the game he starts pumping more lings, if thats not the case he is getting his third and continues droning.
exactly, and even though you're delaying your drones substantially, if protoss wasn't playing safe against this you're also delaying his expansion so it evens out. I would much rather have 30 drones on 2 base than 40 probes on 1 base :D
EPT
GG" Making the units first and then the drones is a slight economic sacrifice, but it comes with insurance: map awareness at the very least, map control and a pinned opponent most cases, and with good control you can actually do damage like Losira did, even against an excellent opponent.
