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I don't know that I agree about the whole wall thing. Whilst holding 8 roaches and ~30 lings is surely doable off a 3gate with perfect forcefields, especially if you partially wall off your natural, those 8 roaches will be able to snipe those gateways without the Protoss' stalkers being able to do much. That's sort of the charm of the build; he can choose to leave his lings behind when he sees the wall, only engage with roaches, and use the protoss wall against him. Once the gateways fall, the Protoss is behind on production and a steady stream of lings will eventually kill him. I would say in order to hold it with just 3gate production and without taking enough damage to put you behind, the zerg would either have to make a mistake or you would have to outplay him significantly.
The difference between this and what I've been seeing in other roach/ling early attacks are the timings lining up perfectly for maximum effect. It's sort of the zerg's version of a 4gate, if you don't mind me using that comparison. He delays the gas to get more minerals and get a more economical opening; but he still takes the gas early to signal that, hey, I'm going to get speedlings so I'm taking map control; go hide in your base until you got more units. He drops the roach warren such that it will complete just in time for him to pump out the 8 roaches as needed in case the Protoss does drop a nexus at the standard timing. When this happens he cuts the drones and streams nothing but lings over. It's a very refined build, which is exactly what the 4gate is as well. He's being extremely economical until point X, and then his army instantly swells. Just like a 4gate.
In the second game Alicia quite clearly lost because of the stargate, and in the first he did perhaps make a slight blunder with the move-out and wasted a few forcefields, but I would argue that no other Protoss in the world could've held that attack any better. Just because of the timings working in Losira's favor. People say to scout it, but the fact remains that Protoss are BLIND to a zerg going gas/pool first between the times you would be able to scout it. You can see it coming when he starts moving out (that's around the time Hallucination would be deployable), but Alicia did exactly what he had to in order to defend it; warp in units as soon as he could. He didn't lose a single unit to his poke into the middle of the map, he only lost a bit of energy, and he had forcefields for that entire fight anyway.
I would argue that even though he held that first attack on Terminus, he was behind. He was 2base vs 3base, Losira had a queen for each hatchery, and he was droning hard AND had map control with his speedlings. The game was his to lose at that point. And all because of the opening doing nothing but killing off most of Alicia's army as well as a few probes. It was as well defended as was humanly possible I think. I don't believe that a single cannon (which was the only mistake of significance imo) would've made enough of a difference to make the situation salvageable.
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You said it Markwerf. I am really trying to see how to discuss the "future metagame of pvz" from this game. + Show Spoiler +Certainly Alicia is good and was caught of guard
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How is it cheese when you're expanding behind it and almost guaranteed to do damage? Maybe if the toss can roll over it without taking any losses and the zerg has zero army leftover, but at the very least, cannons built= econ losses. We've already seen Hydra drops demolish FFE builds, although that isn't necessarily guaranteed either. Hydras, drop tech, and overlord speed are all useful to have later as well.
I'm not claiming toss weak, but I wanna know how I can safely expand when 3 gate/sentry expand is so fragile, apparently. I read some comments elsewhere about making choke points with buildings, but doesn't that sometimes mean walling yourself in while roaches peck away at your buildings?
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On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
Idra's was basically an all-in with much fewer drones. You can actually transition out of Losira's pressure build.
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On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things.
if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
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And for those of you who skip the edit on the OP because you already read it once; people seem to be taking the topic to mean something I didn't intend it to. I would edit it if I could, but alas, I am not permitted to. I'm merely looking to discuss alternatives to DT openings to battle this very refined zerg build.
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it's not super cheesy at all as long as a Zerg is making a third behind it and knows when to stop with the aggression
the aggression is meant to reduce Sentry energy and Sentry count. if the aggression can reduce probe count & take down buildings, then that is a bonus.
the reason for doing this is to remove an attack timing from Protoss where they have tons of Sentry energy pooled which then obviously allows them to dictate where the battle occurs.
if the early roach/ling pressure is executed well by the Zerg player, then the Protoss is forced to turtle because they either have to wait to build up Sentry energy and/or rebuild their Sentry numbers. if the Protoss player were to move out without sufficient Sentry energy, then they'll just end up being overrun by Zerg forces. this allows the Zerg player to drone pump hard off of 3 base.
this type of build also isn't new at all. Kyrix did this against Hongun on the very same map. July has been doing this. there are a lot of Zergs currently doing this.
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The most entertaining Zerg games.
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On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
you can do it in non-cheese ways too. ie: just rally the roaches over. and focus fire the sentries, pretty easy to be cost effective.
but yeah this has been around for a while.
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Uh, can you link the game where Kyrix did this to Hongun? The only one I can find is the one in the group play where Hongun does a forge expand and Kyrix goes for his third when he scouts it.
Or any game July does it in would be fine too.
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On April 29 2011 02:52 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series. lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things. if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates.
game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know.
you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me".
the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
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i see sheth do this kind of timing a lot
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I dont get why u think its a new zerg style? This particular semi-all in is very popular on eu server , and has been for a few months already.
Is easily defended if u put a forge right after u make nexus , and scout with ilusion (fenix) what is zerg doing , in case of no lair tech > make 3 canons , stop making probes , chono gateways and most important !! - dont get supply blocked.
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On April 29 2011 03:19 CecilSunkure wrote:
Link to match in op :/
Good point! Fixed.
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On April 29 2011 01:44 Azzur wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my mind, Losira plays how a zerg should play, and not too dissimilar to July. Zergs have the capability of churning out a very quick attack force to exploit timings where a greedy protoss may be weak but we have not seen this style much
Zergs have been staying in macro mode for much to long. Mostly from Beta where Idra showed to power of a pure macro zerg 200 army a move attack. But the more time that pass the more its scene that against Protoss both Zerg and Terran have to either harass or be aggressive with timing pushes.
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On April 29 2011 03:21 turbopasca1 wrote:
I dont get why u think its a new zerg style? This particular semi-all in is very popular on eu server , and has been for a few months already.
Is easily defended if u put a forge right after u make nexus , and scout with ilusion (fenix) what is zerg doing , in case of no lair tech > make 3 canons , stop making probes , chono gateways and most important !! - dont get supply blocked.
The timings are critically different, I believe. At least I've never seen anything quite as refined as what Losira executed.
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1. In a FFE, protoss usually has only 2 or 3 units (counting the one cannon as a unit) that can actually do damage, depending on how many sentries/ticklers he makes. It's not startling that a decent-sized ling/roach push has the potential to do a lot of damage, especially if FFs aren't perfect.
2. How is a 2 base timing push, followed with taking a 3rd, considered cheese?
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On April 29 2011 03:17 Ciddass wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 02:52 Golgotha wrote:On April 29 2011 02:36 Warrior Madness wrote:On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games... Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series. lol comments like this make me wonder what game you just watched. how is it super cheesy? pardon my french but how is it even considered cheese? the kid is up far ahead in drone count, the kid is taking his third, and the kid is going lair tech. how is that cheese? explain it to me. please. or try not to say such things. if you think losira is super cheesy then you must punch your computer in scv all ins and 4 gates. game 1 --- 9:30 --- 33 drones --- lair starts. if that's not "cheesy" then i don't know. you CAN'T do any damage if the protoss places the forge and a 4th gateway to block off the natural a little bit. the whole natural was just open as f*** for no reason screaming "flood me". the whole attack did probably 10 times more damage than it's suppose to be doing.
I disagree. You can't really scout it coming, so you'd obviously have to make the wall preemptively. Which means the zerg can scout it. Which gives him a choice of going through with the attack or not. Assuming he does go through with it (I would), he can use that wall of gateways/forges against the protoss. 8 roaches can drop a building pretty darn fast, and the Protoss won't have more than 3-4 stalkers to defend initially, and they'll be trapped behind their own buildings. It becomes a micro war at this point and the roaches have the upper hand by having the buildings as a secondary target to fall back to if the stalkers back off.
He can even choose to rally further roaches at this point, rather than speedlings, since the wall is only delaying his attack, not preventing it. Once he does bust the wall, you're in the same situation as you were in without the wall, with a few more units, but without your production facilities, and he has more units as well. Constant rallied units would eventually kill you at this point since your production can't keep up with his.
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EPT
