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Braavos36399 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play? Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:31 tRi[T]oN wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
How would you justify allowing idra to play when he is obviously affiliated with a professional SC team?
This makes no sense what so ever.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
read the OP, Idra grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene.
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Change the rules to:
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
So technically if bisu happened to have grown up in north korea and moved to s.korea later on in the game he'd be allowed to play with the original rules.
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i read the OP but the part on allowing foreigners that are currently on pro-teams really wasnt adequate. quite frankly idra has had his chance to proof himself both in the foreign scene and the pro scene. just because he isn't fully succeeding in the pro scene doesn't mean he should continue to be allowed to participate in the foreign scene simply because he cant hack it.
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It doesn't even matter if it makes sense or not. They've made it clear they don't want nongmin to play, and although I find their reasoning to be absurdly convenient, it doesn't really change anything.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:33 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:27 l10f wrote:On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea. Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL. In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there. If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death.
November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation? We aren't even sure if or when he is coming back - Could be next spring/summer/fall...never?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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On November 12 2009 12:38 koreasilver wrote:
It doesn't even matter if it makes sense or not. They've made it clear they don't want nongmin to play, and although I find their reasoning to be absurdly convenient, it doesn't really change anything.
The rules were probably made to facilitate/justify the decision further, so I see no point in arguing. Again, TL really doesn't have to give a reason, and reading through this thread they probably shouldn't have.
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A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right?
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Ret is not in the pro house, he got kicked out because of some gay b-teamer snitching about something he didn't even do. Ret is completely correct in what he said.
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rule 2 and 3 are basically opposite of each other,no difference at all
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
ret idra nongmin are legal to play
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
basically anti koreans,nongmin is affected
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
idra/ret resides in korean now and IS AFFIALIATED WITH PRO TEAM
basically we are arguing either u let 3 of them join or all banned,going to korea as vacation doesnt have any business with the rules
so let me put myself in this example
If i am a olympic rank player and i go korea as vacation during TSL,am i banned from TSL?
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On November 12 2009 12:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play? Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please? Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene. We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country. If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
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I think almost everyone's moral compass is saying:
nongmin should be allowed to play
ret should (most likely) be allowed to play
idra is a progamer
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:42 xMiragex wrote:
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right?
No. You're reading it wrong. If you were born in Korea/China but you live in the U.S. during TSL, you're in the clear to play.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:41 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:33 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 12:27 l10f wrote:On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea. Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL. In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there. If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death. November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation?
Of course, Nongmin is just taking a break before he starts University in America again. He lived in America for 4 years and he's planning to live in America for many more years. How is he not considered a American.
I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
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On November 12 2009 12:41 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:33 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 12:27 l10f wrote:On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea. Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL. In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there. If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death. November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation? We aren't even sure if or when he is coming back - Could be next spring/summer/fall...never?
The main argument for banning koreans is that they get benefits from the scene. How will being in Nov 2009-Aug 2010 while he was in the US since 2005 without a break to korea benefit him proteam exposure wise?
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On November 12 2009 12:45 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:42 xMiragex wrote:
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right? No. You're reading it wrong. If you were born in Korea/China but you live in the U.S. during TSL, you're in the clear to play.
Oh ok, im not sure if ive been reading it over too much or not enough 
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On November 12 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:
I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
This, but its TL's rules so whatever
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:41 Kennigit wrote:On November 12 2009 12:33 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 12:27 l10f wrote:On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea. Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL. In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there. If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death. November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation? I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote:
When Nongmin first asked us if he could play in the TSL, we replied that he would be allowed to play, provided he resided inside the United States.
What?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 12 2009 12:46 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:41 Kennigit wrote:On November 12 2009 12:33 Jayme wrote:On November 12 2009 12:27 l10f wrote:On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote:
...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea. Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL. In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there. If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death. November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation? Of course, Nongmin is just taking a break before he starts University in America again. He lived in America for 4 years and he's planning to live in America for many more years. How is he not considered a American. I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
This is irrational. There's no evidence for that. Read the OP: "We hope he continues to be a part of our community, and hopefully he will be able to play in TSL3."
What a terrible accusation for you to make. It's clearly a false one, too.
P.S.
+ Show Spoiler +MOTBOB AND L10F: TEAM LIQUID TSL POLICY DEFENDERS EXTRAORDINAIRE
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EPT
