Everyone recognizes the disadvantage of living in a location that does not have a professional StarCraft scene. There is a lack of support for the progamer career -- financially, socially, and competitively. The TSL helps, even if just a little, to bridge that inequality. One of the TSL's major goals has been to promote and enhance the non-professional or "foreigner" scene. That is why we did not allow any professional players to play in the first TSL. Additional lag problems and identity enforcement issues made it much easier for us to simply ban certain countries' IP address from participating. We granted a special exception for several players who currently resided in a location with a proscene or had received professional training in the past -- IdrA, Legionnaire, Nazgul, and Rekrul.
The reasoning behind allowing these players to play was not based on their level of training, or the color of their skin. We simply did not want to stop someone from moving to Korea to pursue his dream of becoming a professional StarCraft player. A rule that banned any of these players from the TSL would undoubtedly harm him and all amateur StarCraft players greatly, and they already faced enough challenges on their road to becoming a professional gamer. Excluding these players would hurt the foreign scene and is the opposite of what we want to accomplish with the TSL.
Thus, we have created this rule for TSL Player Eligibility:
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
We do not want to exclude a Korean player who grew up outside their respective countries, as they faced the same disadvantages as anyone else outside Korea. We also do not want to allow a professional or semi-professional player from simply moving outside their country of origin for the duration of the TSL.
This brings us to the very difficult issue of Nongminzerg. Nongmin was born in Korea and moved to the United States for high school. While Nongmin was offered KTF training matches, he was never officially affiliated with any professional team. When Nongmin first asked us if he could play in the TSL, we replied that he would be allowed to play, provided he resided inside the United States. Nongmin informed us that he would be moving back to Korea for the duration of the TSL, possibly until the summer of 2010 -- which would make him ineligible to play, unless we grant him a special exception.
When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously. Ideally, Nongmin does not move to Korea and he can play in the TSL. But as long as he is in Korea, he cannot participate for the reasons outlined above.
A word from Nongmin himself:
I really thank you to those who wished me to play. It is just unlucky and bad timing that I go to Korea during TSL. I am sad I cannot play but I understand and will follow the decision.
Nongmin has tentatively agreed to play in a Liquibition match against a top TSL player after the PokerStrategy.com TSL concludes.
This was one of the hardest decisions we have ever had to make. We genuinely like Nongmin -- he is a great guy and many of our staff happily watch his stream. We wish he could play, and it is very unfortunate that his trip back to Korea coincided with the TSL. We hope he continues to be a part of our community, and hopefully he will be able to play in TSL3.
Much respect to the admins for laying down the line even though i'm sure many will be dissapointed by the outcome. Hopefully he'll be back for TSL 3 as previously mentioned.
I must say though, dissapointed with the outcome myself. Saying he can play if he stays in the US for this period of time but not if he goes to Korea for a long holiday before university (again in the US) seems *gahhh*. It's not like he gains an advantage by being in a different country for the period of the tournament, regardless though, i'm sure this is set in stone now.
If you are to hold all the players to the same criteria then IdrA, ret and a few others wouldn't allowed to play based on condition number 2. I say let the man play.
why the fuck is idra still allowed to enter, even granted as an exception? what's there to "except" for idra?
i mean, the dude's obviously been immersed in much more progaming scene than any of the other contestants, eligible or ineligible. so why is he still allowed?
On November 12 2009 11:28 Sorrow wrote: this brings up the question in mind:
why the fuck is idra still allowed to enter, even granted as an exception? what's there to "except" for idra?
i mean, the dude's obviously been immersed in much more progaming scene than any of the other contestants, eligible or ineligible. so why is he still allowed?
On November 12 2009 11:28 bEsT[Alive] wrote: If you are to hold all the players to the same criteria then IdrA, ret and a few others wouldn't allowed to play based on condition number 2. I say let the man play.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene;
I wouldn't count a temporary stay in Korea in between eight (projected) years of U.S. high school + college to be 'residing in Korea'. It sounds to me like he resides in the U.S., but is on a logistically forced vacation in Korea.
But I'm not fully informed about the situation, and it's not my call.
Out of curiosity, would a person who turned 18 before Broodwar came out automatically qualify for "grew up in a location without a professional Starcraft scene"?
Wouldn't an official poll be a good idea? I know we are not a democracy, and I accept your decision, but maybe most people would agree to allow him? It looks that you had to decide whether to grant an exception or not... Wouldn't it be possible for the community to make that decision?
For those who are not familiar with logic operator precedence, this can be a bit ambiguous, especially because of the way it was written. The two interpretations:
1 OR (2 AND 3) ==> Correct Interpretation (1 OR 2) AND 3
Under the second interpretation, one would think that no one from Korea is allowed to play. Maybe it would be good to reformat the rule so that people don't get confused about it?
On November 12 2009 11:36 Thratur wrote: Wouldn't an official poll be a good idea? I know we are not a democracy, and I accept your decision, but maybe most people would agree to allow him? It looks that you had to decide whether to grant an exception or not... Wouldn't it be possible for the community to make that decision?
We had a staff vote/input. Obviously 99% of people on TL would say "LET HIM PLAY!"...They don't take into account the larger issues we are faced with. We read the thread and the opinions were noted but thats not how we make decisions.
Idra and ret are both in Korea and affiliated with a professional starcraft team. (at least idra is) Idra and ret are in Korea to TRAIN and get better. They moved to Korea for the purpose of improving their skills at SC and immersing themselves in higher caliber players. And they will be there indefinitely.
Nongmin is in Korea to vacation. And will be back to live in the US for another 4 years afterwards.
God people are so retarded at reading sometimes...
I think it is somewhat unfair that IdrA, who has been a member of a progaming team for some months now is being allowed to play while Nongmin, who has never been on a pro team, isn't. I mean, it's clear that IdrA has an advantage over every other participant.
Also just curious, if some "pro" Chinese player like PJ could play without lag would they be allowed? Or is China's scene considered pro. I assume you are considering China to have a proscene otherwise you may as well have saved some characters and written Korea.
On November 12 2009 11:36 Thratur wrote: Wouldn't an official poll be a good idea? I know we are not a democracy, and I accept your decision, but maybe most people would agree to allow him? It looks that you had to decide whether to grant an exception or not... Wouldn't it be possible for the community to make that decision?
We had a staff vote/input. Obviously 99% of people on TL would say "LET HIM PLAY!"...They don't take into account the larger issues we are faced with. We read the thread and the opinions were noted but thats not how we make decisions.
Interesting. I don't want to argue or anything considering that I'm neutral in that story. It's just that I've always considered that democracy is very important and that in that case the general opinion was obvious. I'm curious then about what were these larger issues the general opinion has forgotten to take into account. Was it the latency? Is it impossible to fix or something? Are they more technical issues? I believe that 1984ing everything is probably worse than trying to get to a peaceful compromise by telling us more details. But well, as I said, we are not, sadly, in a democracy.
On November 12 2009 11:45 T.O.P. wrote: It feels like the rules were made specifically to stop Nongmin from playing in the TSL.
They were made to stop the zillions of amateur Koreans who have easy access to the pro scene from playing. Unfortunately, with Nongmin being in Korea, and having grown up in Korea (and having even been offered test games with KT), there's not much differentiating him from them.
On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote: Thus, we have created this rule for TSL Player Eligibility: [list]A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: [*]He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND [*]He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR [*]He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated
For the sake of transparency the bolded section should be replaced with "a place besides South Korea."
In the end your saying the only reason Nongmin isn't going to be able to participate is a matter of location at that given time?
How odd. I don't understand what difference it would make considering you would have allowed him to play if he were currently residing in the US. Just seems kinda... odd with Nongmin being in Korea only temporarily and such.
but ehh it's your tournament. At least you told us what's going on regardless of how sad the decision is.
On November 12 2009 11:59 Jayme wrote: This is... really strangely worded.
In the end your saying the only reason Nongmin isn't going to be able to participate is a matter of location at that given time?
How odd. I don't understand what difference it would make considering you would have allowed him to play if he were currently residing in the US. Just seems kinda... odd with Nongmin being in Korea only temporarily and such.
but ehh it's your tournament. At least you told us what's going on regardless of how sad the decision is.
yes i found that part to be rather odd as well.
i guess having an A rank and 2 A- rank accounts on iccup renders him ineligible however. sigh.. at least nongmin is taking it better than most of his supporters.
How do being offered test games in like 2005 have anything over actually training and living at a pro house. It seems like you guys wanted to exclude anyone pro but had to try to stick in Idra there somewhere so you added the "grew up in a place without a professional scene" bs. How does growing up when you're like 6th grade compare to actually going over there to play on a pro team when you're 18 or over. It just makes no sense. You get MORE out of training when you're older than nongmin got when he was 'exposed' to the scene back in elementary through junior high. Seriously, if you want to say, we'll let only foreigners and idra play, then just say it... I don't understand why nongmin moving on vacation for a little while when he has little exposure in the main time he's played starcraft for the past 4 years is SO MUCH different from someone who just moved to to a foreign country and doesn't happen to be going to korea for a few months.
On November 12 2009 11:59 Jayme wrote: This is... really strangely worded.
In the end your saying the only reason Nongmin isn't going to be able to participate is a matter of location at that given time?
How odd. I don't understand what difference it would make considering you would have allowed him to play if he were currently residing in the US. Just seems kinda... odd with Nongmin being in Korea only temporarily and such.
but ehh it's your tournament. At least you told us what's going on regardless of how sad the decision is.
i suspect the only reason they allow nongmin to play if he was in US is because theres no way to prove if a US ip is being used by a korean who "grew up" in korea
otherwise they'd ban all people who grew up in a proscene environment and moved to a different country if it was possible
I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
I don't agree with this at all but let's pretend it's true.
I am participating in the TSL ladder and I don't think he should be allowed to participate.
On November 12 2009 12:03 ketomai wrote: How do being offered test games in like 2005 have anything over actually training and living at a pro house. It seems like you guys wanted to exclude anyone pro but had to try to stick in Idra there somewhere so you added the "grew up in a place without a professional scene" bs. How does growing up when you're like 6th grade compare to actually going over there to play on a pro team when you're 18 or over. It just makes no sense. You get MORE out of training when you're older than nongmin got when he was 'exposed' to the scene back in elementary through junior high. Seriously, if you want to say, we'll let only foreigners and idra play, then just say it... I don't understand why nongmin moving on vacation for a little while when he has little exposure in the main time he's played starcraft for the past 4 years is SO MUCH different from someone who just moved to to a foreign country and doesn't happen to be going to korea for a few months.
I don't think anyone is saying test games > CJ training. We'll just have to disagree about our goals for TSL being "bs."
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Considering that we only have 3 seeds, we are the players, so we could all vote on an official poll. Sadly, it won't happen...
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
LOL of course they dont want him to play. Just curious, but how will you stop the many other korean-american sc players from playing in this turny? there are a lot of students from korea that now reside in the US and play SC.
Seems like the only reason you are banning nongmin is becus you know he will crush your great white hope...
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
I think people are misinterpreting what I'm saying here -- I disagree with WARMASTER's logic. Obviously a poll of the players would reveal at least one player who doesn't want nongmin to play. So it wouldn't change anything.
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Considering that we only have 3 seeds, we are the players, so we could all vote on an official poll. Sadly, it won't happen...
How many people do you think would take everything into consideration before voting? Maybe 10%?
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Considering that we only have 3 seeds, we are the players, so we could all vote on an official poll. Sadly, it won't happen...
How many people do you think would take everything into consideration before voting? Maybe 10%?
Well, we could have some kind of 5 questions test to get access to the poll and that percentage would climb to a much higher number. Around 90% if you need to get 100% at the test.
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
I think a "because we said so," would have sufficed. As people have pointed out, it's TL's tournament, so they can do whatever they want. Fairness seems pretty irrelevant in this context, and giving justification is only giving more reason for a dispute.
If nongmin turned round and said "Hey, I can stay for the majority of the tournament but I have no choice but to go to Korea for the last part" would the answer remain the same? Also similarly, if he didn't go to Korea but some other country would he be allowed?
Really, i'm done arguing because it's set in stone and this is indeed their house. I just wondered with these examples .
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
On November 12 2009 12:31 tRi[T]oN wrote: ...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
How would you justify allowing idra to play when he is obviously affiliated with a professional SC team?
This makes no sense what so ever.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
read the OP, Idra grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
So technically if bisu happened to have grown up in north korea and moved to s.korea later on in the game he'd be allowed to play with the original rules.
i read the OP but the part on allowing foreigners that are currently on pro-teams really wasnt adequate. quite frankly idra has had his chance to proof himself both in the foreign scene and the pro scene. just because he isn't fully succeeding in the pro scene doesn't mean he should continue to be allowed to participate in the foreign scene simply because he cant hack it.
It doesn't even matter if it makes sense or not. They've made it clear they don't want nongmin to play, and although I find their reasoning to be absurdly convenient, it doesn't really change anything.
On November 12 2009 12:38 koreasilver wrote: It doesn't even matter if it makes sense or not. They've made it clear they don't want nongmin to play, and although I find their reasoning to be absurdly convenient, it doesn't really change anything.
The rules were probably made to facilitate/justify the decision further, so I see no point in arguing. Again, TL really doesn't have to give a reason, and reading through this thread they probably shouldn't have.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right?
Ret is not in the pro house, he got kicked out because of some gay b-teamer snitching about something he didn't even do. Ret is completely correct in what he said.
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
On November 12 2009 12:42 xMiragex wrote: A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right?
No. You're reading it wrong. If you were born in Korea/China but you live in the U.S. during TSL, you're in the clear to play.
On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote: ...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea.
Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL.
In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there.
If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death.
November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation?
Of course, Nongmin is just taking a break before he starts University in America again. He lived in America for 4 years and he's planning to live in America for many more years. How is he not considered a American.
I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote: ...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea.
Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL.
In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there.
If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death.
November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation? We aren't even sure if or when he is coming back - Could be next spring/summer/fall...never?
The main argument for banning koreans is that they get benefits from the scene. How will being in Nov 2009-Aug 2010 while he was in the US since 2005 without a break to korea benefit him proteam exposure wise?
On November 12 2009 12:42 xMiragex wrote: A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is kinda BS imo. This basically screws over ANY person born in China and ANY person born in Korea regardless if they fullfil rule #1. Am i right?
No. You're reading it wrong. If you were born in Korea/China but you live in the U.S. during TSL, you're in the clear to play.
Oh ok, im not sure if ive been reading it over too much or not enough
On November 12 2009 12:25 Sorrow wrote: ...and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
take that off the rule guideline since it doesn't apply in any way and is obsolete, as any progaming team is already located in Korea.
Nope, if that part is taken off a B team player in a pro team could take a vacation to a nearby nation and play in TSL.
In contrast we now have someone who is basically taking a vacation in Korea who can't play simply because he was born there.
If this is their decision it's fine but it will likely be discussed to death.
November 2009 - August 2010 = vacation?
Of course, Nongmin is just taking a break before he starts University in America again. He lived in America for 4 years and he's planning to live in America for many more years. How is he not considered a American.
I really doubt TL admins will let Nongmin play if he stays in the USA. You'll probably just make new rules to exclude him.
This is irrational. There's no evidence for that. Read the OP: "We hope he continues to be a part of our community, and hopefully he will be able to play in TSL3."
What a terrible accusation for you to make. It's clearly a false one, too.
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.
Player X: member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Player Y: recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.
If you really wanted a competitive tournament that wont produce the given one or two ppl to win (idra/ret) then you would make the exception so that you could have an overall more exciting turny.
I don't think TL staff's logic makes sense (in terms of fairness, not logic itself). And I think they've made it pretty obvious their intentions [what I think is favoritism] by crafting a set of rules to disallow nonming and allow Ret/Idra without having to say they are giving Ret/Idra an "exception" (the rule about not growing up in a location with pro SC allows Ret/Idra).
However, the fact is it's the TL staff's tournament, not the public SC community. They can do whatever they want even if the majority disagrees.
Personally I think the clearest and simplest rule should be to disallow anyone playing in Korea and any professional SC player. So nonming, Idra, and Ret would not be able to play (nonming being in Korea at the time of TSL and Idra/Ret having associations with proSC).
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.
Player X: member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Player Y: recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.
Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.
I think what ppl are saying is it seems like a blatant way to exclude nonmingzerg and include Idra/Ret while avoiding having to tell us you're giving Idra/Ret an "exception".
It comes off as favoritism. But it's your tourney so you guys can do whatever you want.
I think this is overall a good decision. He's a korean living abroad. May have been for a long time but he still grew up in the place where the SC pro scene was/is biggest.
IdrA/Ret/Rek etc.. they are non koreans who have moved to korea and been there for a very limited amount of time. Rek has been there longest but he blows so who cares
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
Idra is an exception to the rules, so yes you're probably right.
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
Idra is an exception to the rules, so yes you're probably right.
Actually under their new rules for TSL2, Idra isn't an exception. He doesn't violate any of the rules to make him ineligible. In this way TL staff doesn't have to say their giving any "exceptions" (whether it's their intention or not to go about doing this).
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.
Player X: member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Player Y: recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.
Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.
If our rules were too rigid, we'd not allow Idra or Ret or Naz or Rek or Legionnaire or anyone who set foot in Korea and even sniffed some pro-training. We "bent" the fairness rules for players who were a large part of the foreigner community and who fans wanted to see play in a tournament. We decided that Nongmin didn't qualify for this exception.
If its easier, just read the two rules as "no proteam players can play in TSL" and X Y Z players are granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that?
On November 12 2009 13:07 Kennigit wrote: Then you don't understand anything we posted in this thread.
Sorry but the way you guys are wording things and your rationale makes it hard (for me at least) to think you're being fair. Yes I read everything. And I believe I've replied in a reasonable way. You guys think Idra is a important contributing member to the SC community (and under the new rules he isn't technically an "exception").
And yes, I realize this is your tournament so you guys can set whatever rules you want.
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote: How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?
Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?
Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.
We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.
If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.
Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?
If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.
Player X: member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Player Y: recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches
Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.
Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.
If our rules were too rigid, we'd not allow Idra or Ret or Naz or Rek or Legionnaire or anyone who set foot in Korea and even sniffed some pro-training. We "bent" the fairness rules for players who were a large part of the foreigner community and who fans wanted to see play in a tournament. We decided that Nongmin didn't qualify for this exception.
If its easier, just read the two rules as "no proteam players can play in TSL" and X Y Z players are granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that?
I agreed to that already. I'm just asking if Player W (nongmin) who isn't a long standing member of the community but happens to be fucked over by your rules right as it starts should get an exception too. It's not as if he doesn't have the contribution to back it up. If anything I find his contribution to TL more valuable than being a 'long standing member' who does not contribute anything. All I"m asking is for you to sympathize with nongmin, who doesn't deserved to be ditched twice by such faggotry of coincidences.
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND not affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
On November 12 2009 13:10 Sorrow wrote: seeing as how no moderator would choose to respond to my logic, i will stop complaining and take it like the bitch i am.
i give up. let them do whatever they chose, it's their tournament.
Logic isn't the word I'd use.
I think I'd call it "trolling" lol. I'm gonna be sad not to see Nongmin play, but I see where you're coming from and I think Nongmin does too.
granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that?
Heh, just had to highlight this. I know you said longstanding members, but surely the backlash you're seeing shows the dissapointment ^^.
On November 12 2009 13:12 ketomai wrote: I agreed to that already. I'm just asking if Player W (nongmin) who isn't a long standing member of the community but happens to be fucked over by your rules right as it starts should get an exception too. It's not as if he doesn't have the contribution to back it up. If anything I find his contribution to TL more valuable than being a 'long standing member' who does not contribute anything. All I"m asking is for you to sympathize with nongmin, who doesn't deserved to be ditched twice by such faggotry of coincidences.
We do sympathize with Nongmin, which is why we took several hours to discuss it, posted this thread, and recognized the unluckiness of his circumstances. While this might not seem like much, it isn't like we're cold-hearted people just banning him and never giving him another word.
Plus, we actually said he could play if he lived in the US -- which is consistent with our reasoning so far. This alone should prove to you we have nothing against Nongmin. If he wants to stay in the US and play, that'd be great. Add to that the Liquibition offer, and its clear we aren't trying to drive him away or "fuck him over" in any way.
Your point about which contributions are more valuable is largely subjective, so there's no need to address that here.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Since apparently l10f's post wasn't enough, here:
1 AND ( 2 OR (3 AND 4) )
Logic is not about how many requirements apply.
AND means both must be true OR means at least one must be true
Nongmin does not fulfill 3, thus he does not fulfill (3 AND 4) (false AND anything) is always false.
Nongmin does not fulfill 2 either, so he doesn't fulfill (2 OR (3 AND 4)). It works out to (false OR false), which is false.
Nongmin does fulfill 1, so it's: true AND false, which is false. Therefore Nongmin is not eligible to play.
Idea fulfills 2, so he fulfills (2 OR (3 AND 4)). (true OR anything) is true.
Idea also fulfills 1, so it's: true AND true, which is true. Idra is eligible to play.
Although Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running, he will not be residing outside of Korea during TSL so he does not meet requirement 3.
On November 12 2009 13:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Rek has been there longest but he blows so who cares
I feel like this is the point, though. Nongmin clearly doesn't and has a good chance on winning the tournament, which is why so many people care. I can understand that one wouldn't want to give the 1st prize (which is a lot!) to someone, who just recently joined the foreign community and you have doubts (is he already enrolled at that university? It sounded pretty set in stone when I read about it) that he will be for a longer time. After all I feel with Nong, since the community, which he has been part of (one way or another, you can't deny that) basically rejects him. Thus I am the more surprised, that he will continue streaming and providing A class games, which speaks for him for being a real great person. Thumbs up, Nongmin, we all (nearly anyways) hope you can participate in the next TSL tournament, however I have doubts about that.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
i fucking want with all my heart that nongmin SHOULD BE ALLOWED to enter
this article gets my hopes crushed and dreams strangled =[
dude, relax. nongmin has agreed with the moderators and taken it easily. the admins agree together, and nongmin has consented, really theres no point in arguing. it's over, and even the person not allowed to play has accepted it. play yourself, relax, and enjoy the tournament.
On November 12 2009 13:15 Hot_Bid wrote: We do sympathize with Nongmin, which is why we took several hours to discuss it, posted this thread, and recognized the unluckiness of his circumstances. While this might not seem like much, it isn't like we're cold-hearted people just banning him and never giving him another word.
Plus, we actually said he could play if he lived in the US -- which is consistent with our reasoning so far. This alone should prove to you we have nothing against Nongmin. If he wants to stay in the US and play, that'd be great. Add to that the Liquibition offer, and its clear we aren't trying to drive him away or "fuck him over" in any way.
Your point about which contributions are more valuable is largely subjective, so there's no need to address that here.
Then if you sympathize with him, why is there a need to capitalize on one small breach of the rules like not being geographically in a correct area during the few months of the TSL? Why is it that Idra (even IF he's a long standing member)/Rekrul/Legionnaire/Nazgul/ can transcend the important rule of having no major pro team exposure, while nongmin can't even over come being in the wrong place on the globe? All the other conditions are fine except for him physically being in Korea. Is being a long standing member that much of an advantage in bending the rules?
Off-topic question (that means ignoring it is an option):
What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank?
Now onto more important stuff.
On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote: When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"?
When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?)
It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
Well, I'm not sure that noogmin is Korean amateur so I wouldn't say that a TSL full of Korean amateur and a TSL with noogmin is the same thing...
On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote: When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"? When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?)
It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing.
He is A rank, and he started streaming August 30th this year.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote: When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"? When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?)
It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing.
Just over 2 months ago (and all his 13ish posts on TL are about his stream). We discussed it at length in MIR and decided that it wasn't enough to overcome the rule against Korean amateurs playing from Korea.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
What makes no sense to me is why nonming can't play because he's moving to Korea for a year in combination with having lived there as a kid. As if the one year he's in Korea would suddenly give him an advantage which he wouldn't have if he stayed in the US.
I mean if the issue here is unfair advantage you should definately exclude Idra and Ret, seeing as they play in a proteam. It also makes no sense how foreigners in pro teams can play but koreans without proteams can't if the issue here is the unfair advantage. Adding the rule of being allowed to play in a proteam and participate as long as you weren't born in korea seems very arbitrary and makes me think other reasons are involved.
What I'm getting from this is that Idra and Ret get to play because they will increase the popularity of the TSL by a lot, but nonming gets excluded because he's just another korean, which is the only way this whole thing makes sense to me.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
On November 12 2009 13:25 Waffles wrote: i feel like tl admins could have just easily avoided all this drama if they changed the eligibility to just plain old invites.
Then we'd just have a shitstorm over something else. =/
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
I feel its rather silly that people are trying to argue that nongminzerg meets the requirements in any silly way. It is clear that he fails to meet those requirements. I find the reasoning behind the arguments to be rather silly though. They seem to be in place because a prominent progaming scene in a country would provide a great advantage to the people living in that country. As such, anyone who "grew up" in such a country and still currently living in that country are excluded, due to this obvious advantage. Also, being part of a progaming team provides an extremely high advantage, and to avoid dealing with progamers or ex-progamers that have left the country with the proscene, they are also exlcuded. However, it is important to note that progamers are only excluded if they grew up in a progaming country. This is where I feel the rules are unfair and fail to properly stand up for the reason of their existance. If the rules are set to minimize the advantages of those in contact with the proscene, surely we should exclude actual pros living in Korea? So, either the creators of these rules are rather foolish in their failure to see this problem, or their goals are not 100% to prevent such an advantage. The creators of this goal had entertainment in mind, they wanted a tournament for the foreigners. Advantage or not, the rules are biased against Koreans. If the rules truly wanted to minimize the advantage of living in a proscene country, they should have had "Players cannot be part of a pro team" right at the top, as an absolute requirement. The way it is right now, growing up in continuing to live in Korea is more of a threat to the tournament than being an S-Class progamer (not that Idra is, but as the rules are if he somehow achieved Godmode he'd still be allowed.)
anyway to just change the rules if you're part of a proteam or recieved progaming training to participate in tsl you have to be part of tl's community?
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
the statement is, he has to not live in korea AND not be a progamer to be eligible, you made it into
he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
AND NOT a PROGAMER
nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER
he only meets ONE HALF OF THE "AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
On November 12 2009 13:21 domane wrote: What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank?
When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?)
On November 12 2009 13:23 Shivaz wrote: He is A rank, and he started streaming August 30th this year.
On November 12 2009 13:25 SonuvBob wrote: Just over 2 months ago (and all his 13ish posts on TL are about his stream). We discussed it at length in MIR and decided that it wasn't enough to overcome the rule against Korean amateurs playing from Korea.
Thank you both. I agree that two months is a short time.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
On November 12 2009 13:24 nitd_kim wrote: so let me get this straight...
the ONE and ONLY reason that nongmin doesnt get to play in the TSL is because for the duration of TSL, he will be residing in the USA
If he was anywhere other than South Korea, he'd be able to participate...
at the same time, Ret and Idra get to play just because they grew up somewhere without pro scene...
Growing up in South Korea = Magically better at SC than others and must be disqualified from participating in foreign leagues? Then TSL must think WCG is a joke and all the koreans should be banned from playing in WCG. or all people that grew up near a mountain with snow should be banned from participating in the Winter Olympics
why dont u call TSL - Teamliquid Fairness Starleague and only allow people that never played any RTS play to make everything "fair"
i find that its ridiculous to say that a person has an unfair advantage at playing starcraft just because they are in korea. if someone wanted to get good at something, they pursue it and master it themselves... not by watching proleague on a friday night at home.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
AND NOT a PROGAMER
nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER
he only meets ONE HALF OF THE "AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
First, what explicitly does 'grew up in...' mean - what age/time range does it refer to? First of all, the years someone lives in Korea before Brood War was released - obviously those years don't count. And even early after its release, the scene wasn't significant. How much % of this time range from some time after Brood War's release, until today, do you require someone to live outside of Korea to count as "didn't grow up in"?
Rule 3 - okay, it seems to be worded as to exclude Korean amateurs, pro-gamers, as well as all who live in South Korea, fine.
Rule 2 - basically - this is an escape clause for those who don't qualify under Rule 3 (they're living in Korea at the moment) - and the way you wrote it, idra and ret are th ones benefit from this rule. Of course it's your tournament and you can choose who to play, but it's rather off-putting that this setup has been made to inconsistently allow a few exceptions.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
AND NOT a PROGAMER
nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER
he only meets ONE HALF OF THE "AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote: Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong?
edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
So... the issue is making sure Korean amateurs don't smurf into TSL. And 4 years of high school in the USA does not convince the staff that nongminzerg isn't a smurfing Korean amateur, because he's currently in Korea and there's no proof he really IS coming back for college in the USA. A Korean doesn't count as 'foreign' from Korea if he's not going to live outside of Korea for the long term, and nongminzerg's contributions are considered insufficient to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I guess an obvious question is whether or not nongminzerg has been accepted to a foreign university.
On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote: Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
Yes, this the point I was trying to convey as well. I mean, as the rules are: A Korean living in the US is allowed. An American living in Korea is allowed. An American pro living in Korea is allowed. A Korean pro living in US is not allowed. It seems that the rules are specifically tailored to allow non-Koreans to play regardless of progaming status or anything like it. And I do agree, it is a Foreigner tournament after all, but I can't help but think that nong deserves to play due to the time he spent here and his supposed enrollment in an American university.
this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak.
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
AND NOT a PROGAMER
nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER
he only meets ONE HALF OF THE "AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
np as long youre not trolling
the only troll post from sorrow i can decipher is his last post, which contained that bold print.
the others actually had some math shit to back it up
which i dont even get anyways, i failed math in high school, so who gives a fuck.
On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote: Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong?
edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
On November 12 2009 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote: this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak.
Isn't a "korean" in the starcraft sense one that is part of the korean community? Nongmin, who has been living outside of the US for 4 years, obviously can't be considered part of the community or at least not fully because he, in those 4 years, could not participate in what ever events the community had to offer. Anyone who is not part of the Chinese or Korean community should be foreign (non professional).
On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote: [quote] Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community.
That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team..
both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post,
wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE??
yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
AND NOT a PROGAMER
nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER
he only meets ONE HALF OF THE "AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
np as long youre not trolling
the only troll post from sorrow i can decipher is his last post, which contained that bold print.
the others actually had some math shit to back it up
which i dont even get anyways, i failed math in high school, so who gives a fuck.
All his "math" posts were just faulty logic, none of it was backing anything up.
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
On November 12 2009 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote: this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak.
Isn't a "korean" in the starcraft sense one that is part of the korean community? Nongmin, who has been living outside of the US for 4 years, obviously can't be considered part of the community or at least not fully because he, in those 4 years, could not participate in what ever events the community had to offer. Anyone who is not part of the Chinese or Korean community should be foreign (non professional).
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote: Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong?
edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
Is it now because he is a damn good player and new to the foreign community or because he is not physically present in a non Korean country while the TSL is being held? That is really confusing me.
On November 12 2009 13:44 machinehead.. wrote: Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
Idra will lose to the first zerg who knows how to make lings.
On November 12 2009 13:42 SonuvBob wrote: Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
Alright, I didn't realize they were before he left. Then what about now? Is he still a part of the korean community now that it's been 4 years since he was last involved with it? Is there a specific time period in which he must be cut from the korean community to default to the foreign community? If you based on past experiences then players like Ftact)Love can not compete either. You might even extend that to JF and Xiaozi, who were technically formerly part of China's BW Community. Where do you draw the line? Is 4 years not enough? IMO he should be foreign regardless of what he has done with the foreign community (his streaming is greater than people give him credit for though) by the fact that he can not be part of the Korean community.
He's still becoming known to foreigners, he presumably lived in Korea for 14+ years, he was good enough to be offered something by KTF, he will be in Korea during tournament, and his iccup rank is A.
If administrators were to let nongminzerg play, there would be even greater discontent and anger (****ing catastrophe) than what we've seen in this thread.
Also, it might set a precedent for gosu Korean amateurs to enter in the future.
On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote: I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament..
Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
ofc they dont want, they are scared
just let him play and if he comes into money, he has to donate 70-90% of it to UNICEF or something else. with that he would do something very good for the foreign community.
btw if i see idras behavior, i would say his puberty isnt finished yet and he (if he ever does) kinda grows up in korea, too
On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote: Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong?
edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
Is it now because he is a damn good player and new to the foreign community or because he is not physically present in a non Korean country while the TSL is being held? That is really confusing me.
the later part admins have already said that if he stayed in the US, he could play
I understand where the admins are coming from, but I think they should make an exception for nongmin. I mean since progamers who contributed to the teamliquid/foreigner community are allowed to play, I think nongmin should be allowed to play too because of his contribution in the form of his stream.
He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play. About this rule, it is kind of ambiguous. I assume the admins will reserve the final decision to decide how much lag is too much, and that seems fine.
On November 12 2009 13:50 Get.malice wrote: just let him play and if he comes into money, he has to donate 70-90% of it to UNICEF or something else. with that he would do something very good for the foreign community.
btw if i see idras behavior, i would say his puberty isnt finished yet and he (if he ever does) kinda grows up in korea, too
lol I agree with these arguments just because of hilarity
On November 12 2009 13:25 Waffles wrote: i feel like tl admins could have just easily avoided all this drama if they changed the eligibility to just plain old invites.
Then we'd just have a shitstorm over something else. =/
Agree or disagree ty TL for finally bringing us TSL 2. And thanks for making it have a ladder phase again so even noobs like me can try and participate. It will give me an opportunity to have yet another mass gaming period and I am really looking forward to it.
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
You're stupid and irrational if you think Idra, who has been a pro for 2 or more years, who plays against the top players in the world all day is going to not be in the finals if he is allowed to play. O boy, there might be some surprises on who qualifies, but I doubt the top 4 or 8 will be much of a surprise.
If having grown up in a Korean environment is advantageous enough, it's odd how living in a pro house could seem less of an advantage if you are non Korean... Sooner or later, people are going to start becoming pro simply for the chance to train to play in events like TSL. People who are given the chance/good enough, obviously.
On November 12 2009 13:49 domane wrote: He's still becoming known to foreigners, he presumably lived in Korea for 14+ years, he was good enough to be offered something by KTF, he will be in Korea during tournament, and his iccup rank is A.
If administrators were to let nongminzerg play, there would be even greater discontent and anger (****ing catastrophe) than what we've seen in this thread.
Also, it might set a precedent for gosu Korean amateurs to enter in the future.
Unless the gosu amateurs lived in Korea for 4+ years, then no, it would not set a precedent. And no, there would not be anger, because unlike the rules, most of us will not reject a major TL contributor like nongmin from a TL hosted event.
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
You're stupid and irrational if you think Idra, who has been a pro for 2 or more years, who plays against the top players in the world all day is going to not be in the finals if he is allowed to play. O boy, there might be some surprises on who qualifies, but I doubt the top 4 or 8 will be much of a surprise.
If having grown up in a Korean environment is advantageous enough, it's odd how living in a pro house could seem less of an advantage if you are non Korean... Sooner or later, people are going to start becoming pro simply for the chance to train to play in events like TSL. People who are given the chance/good enough, obviously.
It has been determined that most of the "advantage" stuff was bullshit. The reasoning is: Its a Foreigner tournament. Idra was born in the USA and is white. He is 100% foreigner, and a foreigner who achieves progamer status is just a damn good foreigner. Nong is Korean. He's gonna be living in Korea. He is not a foreigner in that sense, and as such is not allowed.
So going back to Korea once right as TSL begins for the first time in 4 years is now reentering him into the Korean community? That really is unfair. You're discounting the 4 years he was 'part of the foreign community' for just one visit. I know I"m repeating myself but you won't address the context. Why can you not bend such a small rule for nongmin when you bend huge rules for the others?
On November 12 2009 13:56 ketomai wrote: So going back to Korea once right as TSL begins for the first time in 4 years is now reentering him into the Korean community? That really is unfair. You're discounting the 4 years he was 'part of the foreign community' for just one visit. I know I"m repeating myself but you won't address the context. Why can you not bend such a small rule for nongmin when you bend huge rules for the others?
I think Hot_Bid already said he gave them special treatment b/c idra and ret have been apart of the foriegn community much longer. Nongmin has only been with Tl.net for a few months. Which in the Admin's eyes is not long enough to justify bending these rules.
On November 12 2009 13:49 domane wrote: If administrators were to let nongminzerg play, there would be even greater discontent and anger (****ing catastrophe) than what we've seen in this thread.
Yeah, it's a shitty situation.
On November 12 2009 13:52 domane wrote: EDIT: Even if nongminzerg was in the US during TSL2, I have deep doubts about whether he would be allowed to play.
I'm thinking internet riots.
We'd allow him, and we'd have to deal with another thread just like this one.
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
You're stupid and irrational if you think Idra, who has been a pro for 2 or more years, who plays against the top players in the world all day is going to not be in the finals if he is allowed to play. O boy, there might be some surprises on who qualifies, but I doubt the top 4 or 8 will be much of a surprise.
If having grown up in a Korean environment is advantageous enough, it's odd how living in a pro house could seem less of an advantage if you are non Korean... Sooner or later, people are going to start becoming pro simply for the chance to train to play in events like TSL. People who are given the chance/good enough, obviously.
It has been determined that most of the "advantage" stuff was bullshit. The reasoning is: Its a Foreigner tournament. Idra was born in the USA and is white. He is 100% foreigner, and a foreigner who achieves progamer status is just a damn good foreigner. Nong is Korean. He's gonna be living in Korea. He is not a foreigner in that sense, and as such is not allowed.
If you call a small break for a few months before returning to the US for your uni studies as "living" in South Korea, then what do you call being being there for over a year and having a full-time job?
On November 12 2009 13:56 ketomai wrote: So going back to Korea once right as TSL begins for the first time in 4 years is now reentering him into the Korean community? That really is unfair. You're discounting the 4 years he was 'part of the foreign community' for just one visit. I know I"m repeating myself but you won't address the context. Why can you not bend such a small rule for nongmin when you bend huge rules for the others?
I think Hot_Bid already said he gave them special treatment b/c idra and ret have been apart of the foriegn community much longer. Nongmin has only been with Tl.net for a few months. Which in the Admin's eyes is not long enough to justify bending these rules.
I'd say that nongmin has contributed back to the foreign community more than idra has with his streaming though. What has idra done to give back to TL? I don't know him for anything other than his BM and SC skills. But i guess longevity has its merits too, as a gamer can't be expected to give back to community really, other than by playing good games. Anyway, i hope nongmin gets accepted by the foreign community and that his streaming games is not overlooked.
I don't agree with this decision but at least it's nice you're giving him a shot at Liquibition. Maybe after that he'll be considered for "foreigner" tournaments.
On November 12 2009 13:56 ketomai wrote: edit: Hot_Bid deleted his own post or I am crazy.
A lot of posts have been deleted. I swear, there was 9 pages in this thread at one time and when I refreshed, there was only 7 pages.
They nuked all of sorrow's posts.
fuck, he took up 2 pages by himself? mother fucker, just ip ban that faggot.
Well I assume they probobly got rid of some of the more "thoughtful" posts also.
so it wasnt just sorrow's posts? =[
Looks like it was just his posts (29 of em!) and the direct responses to his posts (most of which were by HB, l10f, and myself).
All my posts were deleted and I thought I was more than reasonable with the wording of my posts. Oh well, I just view it as some ppl don't take criticism very well =/.
Edit: I had checked before and did not see them in either thread. Apparently someone moved them so now they're missing.
Im sorry but I just think its stupid. Its your tournament and your rules but banning players just because they are moving to korea is just dumb. I understand that you wanna promote the foreign community but if you allowed Idra who btw was living in korea at that time and was affiliated with estro, I think you should allow nongmin as well. And as for contributing to the foreign community, don't give me that crap. There are tons of players out there that have not even posted 10 posts on teamliquid. As for participating in tourneys, I simply believe that nongmin was never given the chance just like players from countries that never had proscenes.
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
You're stupid and irrational if you think Idra, who has been a pro for 2 or more years, who plays against the top players in the world all day is going to not be in the finals if he is allowed to play. O boy, there might be some surprises on who qualifies, but I doubt the top 4 or 8 will be much of a surprise.
If having grown up in a Korean environment is advantageous enough, it's odd how living in a pro house could seem less of an advantage if you are non Korean... Sooner or later, people are going to start becoming pro simply for the chance to train to play in events like TSL. People who are given the chance/good enough, obviously.
The bolded part is GOOD! That's a GOOD thing! The whole point of TSL is to promote the foreigner community and develop it towards a professional scene. From this perspective, I think the TL's staff's decisions about player eligibility are pretty clear and understandable.
Sucks for Nongmin though, good luck to him in Courage if he does go.
I seriously do not think Idra should be allowed to play. He has ruined enough foreign leagues already ("I honestly do not know what you are going to do...."). Also, this so-called "rule" of yours is obviously made up on the spot so that nongminzerg is excluded and idra is included.
It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
Furthermore, it makes me wonder why idra even signed up for this non-Korean event even though he is training in a proleague team in Korea.
If idra's goal is to become a progamer, perhaps he should have spent more efforts in making his presence felt in Korea. So far, however, he did none of that - I think he is going to be stuck in B-team for a while, if not forever. I make this claim beacuse I saw recently idra played a few matches against Stork on IEF, during which he was crushed like oreo cookies. In particular, during one game idra was shown to be completely incompetent in dealing with dark templars and typed gg immediately. That game made me question idra's actual abilities.
Let me put it this way. Idra going to Korea is sort of like going to universities to play sports, but instead of trying to compete in his own league inside of universities, he only competes with middleschool students (foreigners), crush them, then get bad mannered and call names. I think idra is sour loser and he should withdraw himself from TSL ASAP.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
Rather, I think the rule was made in such a way that idra could play. What a stupid tournament, I have to say.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
Rather, I think the rule was made in such a way that idra could play. What a stupid tournament, I have to say.
Not a stupid tournament, but a stupid decision for sure. I'd have loved to see him play.
On November 12 2009 18:28 Eiii wrote: And how is attending high school in the US not 'growing up' there? It's not like he was playing SC when he was 8, right?
The point is that he is competing in a place that is out of his league.
On November 12 2009 18:28 Eiii wrote: Not a stupid tournament, but a stupid decision for sure. I'd have loved to see him play.
You seemed to have forgotten about idra's stupid comments on the valor tournament. Because he is playing in Korea right now, he is looking down to other foreigners that are not in Korea. He wants to participate in this tournament only because he wants the prize money and his skills are too weak for him to make money playing in Korea. So I honestly do not see why anyone wants to see him play.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers are can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Excuse me sir. I must be stupid or something. You seem to be claiming that this tournament gives foreigner players the [best possible??] motivation to excel their gameplay. But this contradicts with accepting idra into the tournament already - because he should be trying to get into the A-team right now; but winning this tournament will NOT bring him one-step closer to the A-team because I am sure that the progaming team will NOT recognize a win on the TSL as an achievement big enough to have him considered as a good player.
And let me mention this again. From his rude remarks about other foreigner during the valor tournament, he has already shown to have no respect for other foreign players because he thinks he has stepped outside of that circle already. For him to participate in this tournament, he is only in it for the money since there is nothing for him to achieve here. Understandably he will need financial support while living in Korea cleaning tiolets, but I think it's more effective if we set up a charity to support him financially than having this charade tournament.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold.
Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday.
This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception.
Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to not make an exception for him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction.
So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted.
I hope this clears up you confusion
EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
On November 12 2009 18:50 illu wrote:You seem to be claiming that this tournament gives foreigner players the [best possible??] motivation to excel their gameplay. But this contradicts with accepting idra into the tournament already - because he should be trying to get into the A-team right now; but winning this tournament will NOT bring him one-step closer to the A-team
To be honest, I can actually agree with this point of view. If the goal is for Idra to achieve as much as possible in the Korean scene, then TSL2 will serve as a distraction - having to ladder, then play in the tournament will take time away from better quality training.
And it is possible, although not definite, that winning the prize money will diminish his motivation in Korea.
As for asking participants whether or not they minded a certain player's participation...how about we ask participants whether or not they mind Idra and ret's participation, since these two are also exceptional cases (which you have made an extra rule to accomodate).
I don't see why it matters where Nongmin physically is during TSL, whats he gonna do, just suddenly become better because he's breathing Korean air. Starcraft is a game of gradual improvement and for four years hes been improving here in the US. Doesn't make any sense to say that he can't because hes just now going back to Korea, I can't imagine his being in Korea during TSL having any impact on his ability
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold.
Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday.
This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception.
Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to exclude him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction.
So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted.
I hope this clears up you confusion
EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
Just rephrased that part slightly, to make it more clear what I meant to say. We did not decide to exclude him, we just decided not to make an exception at this point in time.
On November 12 2009 17:52 illu wrote: I seriously do not think Idra should be allowed to play. He has ruined enough foreign leagues already ("I honestly do not know what you are going to do...."). Also, this so-called "rule" of yours is obviously made up on the spot so that nongminzerg is excluded and idra is included.
How can it be made up on the spot when it was already created and put to use to tell nongmin he would be allowed to participate, BEFORE he told us he wouldn't be in the USA. So please tell me how it is obviously created afterward when it is obvious we must have used our rules already in the first situation where told him he could play. These are serious accusations.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
TSL is a tournament that should promote progaming for foreigners. Disallowing them from TSL means you are discouraging foreigners to go to Korea and pursue that dream. This is the exact opposite of anything we would ever want to achieve.
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here).
To me this is unfair and i really see no reason at all why he shouldnt be allowed to play. The fact that he was born and raised on korea... how can that be a bigger factor than the fact that he's been living in the us for the past 4 years?
Anyway there is still the "exclusion rule" (or whatever you wanna call it) and he doesn't fit into it because he hasn't been in the community long enough? And because he hasn't taken part in any tournaments... I fail to see how taking part in any tournaments would make him more part of the foreign community, because by your logic he would be a "non-foreigner" playing in a foreign tournament. In my opinion this shows he hasn't entered the foreign community just to take money.
Besides this how long and how much discussion is ridiculous, isn't it? He currently lives in usa (and has for the past 4 years), he is on a foreign team/clan (i think? or atleast he was), he streams and post at tl and he talks/chats with alot of the foreign community, even helps them with strategy etc. To me he is clearly part of the foreign community. But he hasn't done it long enough, so how many months more of streaming would have made him eligible? 1, 2, 6, a year? Ofcourse such discussion is, as previously stated, ridiculous. Imo you are either in the foreign community or you are not.
I have not read all of the thread, but i have read he rules and whole OP. Apparently he falls just short, but ofcourse for tsl3 he is gonna be able to participate for sure! TL staff claims that they really wanted him to play, but they think that he wouldn't be seen as a foreigner by the majority of the community. I think that's kinda cowardice hiding behind that, is there anything supporting this theory at all? I dont think there is, but the fact that people reacted to strong now is kinda says the opposite. Do you really think if his situation was explained that people would have strongly objected to him playing?
Well this is just my 2 cents, i felt i had to post it!
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here).
He was told he could participate. The rules we made were specifically allowing nongmin to play. I thought you said you read the OP.
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here).
To me this is unfair and i really see no reason at all why he shouldnt be allowed to play. The fact that he was born and raised on korea... how can that be a bigger factor than the fact that he's been living in the us for the past 4 years?
Anyway there is still the "exclusion rule" (or whatever you wanna call it) and he doesn't fit into it because he hasn't been in the community long enough? And because he hasn't taken part in any tournaments... I fail to see how taking part in any tournaments would make him more part of the foreign community, because by your logic he would be a "non-foreigner" playing in a foreign tournament. In my opinion this shows he hasn't entered the foreign community just to take money.
Besides this how long and how much discussion is ridiculous, isn't it? He currently lives in usa (and has for the past 4 years), he is on a foreign team/clan (i think? or atleast he was), he streams and post at tl and he talks/chats with alot of the foreign community, even helps them with strategy etc. To me he is clearly part of the foreign community. But he hasn't done it long enough, so how many months more of streaming would have made him eligible? 1, 2, 6, a year? Ofcourse such discussion is, as previously stated, ridiculous. Imo you are either in the foreign community or you are not.
I have not read all of the thread, but i have read he rules and whole OP. Apparently he falls just short, but ofcourse for tsl3 he is gonna be able to participate for sure! TL staff claims that they really wanted him to play, but they think that he wouldn't be seen as a foreigner by the majority of the community. I think that's kinda cowardice hiding behind that, is there anything supporting this theory at all? I dont think there is, but the fact that people reacted to strong now is kinda says the opposite. Do you really think if his situation was explained that people would have strongly objected to him playing?
Well this is just my 2 cents, i felt i had to post it!
Unfortunately these rules have been in place since the first TSL. It is true that they have been altered slightly to take these changes into account, but the changes do not represent a will by us to exclude nongmin, but rather a clarifying of our initial position. As you can expect, we did not foresee a situation in which a Korean living in the US would be in Korea for the duration of the TSL but still want to play. Our initial rules were simpler, they simply stated that those with a Korean IP cannot play unless an exception is made. However, as has been said, we felt that these rules unfairly prohibit foreigners in Korea from playing, so we changed them. The fact remains though that these rules and their current meaning have been in place since the TSL1.
Regarding the exception, you have to understand that the people arguing here form a very small part of the foreign SC community. Most people in the community have never heard of Nongmin because he did not participate in any tournaments, and because he has only been streaming for a couple of months. We did not quantify the number of months in order to find the exact number needed to be part of the community, instead we looked at the way the community as a whole (not the TL community specifically) would interpret the situation. And that is: "A Korean who played SC competitively in Korea moved to the US for school, but is now back in Korea." As such, we felt that Nongmin was not clearly separated from being a Korean enough to participate. Had he been in the US, or been a well known foreign member, we would have made the exception. I really do not think this can be clearer.
What I find interesting about this thread is that no-one seems to be able to provide a reason for why we would not want Nongmin to play. As has been said, the quality of games are likely to be very good if he plays, and we knew that allowing Nongmin to play would be the decision for which we would receive the least amount of complaints right now. So what motivation does the TL staff have for not allowing Nongmin to play? We've invited him to participate in the next Liquibition which shows that we value his role in the community and see him as a strong competitor. The only reason TL can have to not allowing him to play is because of the reasons we've given here. By allowing Nongmin to play, we would need to make an exception, and making an exception for a person who we feel is not perceived as a foreigner would invite discontent among the foreign players and their fans.
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here).
He was told he could participate. The rules we made were specifically allowing nongmin to play. I thought you said you read the OP.
I did read the OP, that doesn't mean i understood all of it, i guess. So i read it again. I know he was told he could participate, and i cant see how my post lead you to believe different. I dont know when the current rules were put in place.
And after reading the op twice more i can't see how im suppose to deduct that the rules were put in place specifically for nongmin to be able to play (again i did not know when these rules were put in place, and to me there was a big chance that the rules could have be changed after the original thread about this).
The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they?
Anyway that wasn't the point of my post at all. No need for nitpicking and sarcastic remarks.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold.
Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday.
This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception.
Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to exclude him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction.
So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted.
I hope this clears up you confusion
EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
That's the decision I needed to hear. Thanks.
Really, thats the part that makes the least sense to me. If you, as the mod's want nongmin to play and we, the teamliquid community, the largest sc site, want nongmin to play why are we instead taking into consideration the unvoiced hypothetical opinions?
Anyway that wasn't the point of my post at all. No need for nitpicking and sarcastic remarks.
The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever.
The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they?
Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply.
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here).
To me this is unfair and i really see no reason at all why he shouldnt be allowed to play. The fact that he was born and raised on korea... how can that be a bigger factor than the fact that he's been living in the us for the past 4 years?
Anyway there is still the "exclusion rule" (or whatever you wanna call it) and he doesn't fit into it because he hasn't been in the community long enough? And because he hasn't taken part in any tournaments... I fail to see how taking part in any tournaments would make him more part of the foreign community, because by your logic he would be a "non-foreigner" playing in a foreign tournament. In my opinion this shows he hasn't entered the foreign community just to take money.
Besides this how long and how much discussion is ridiculous, isn't it? He currently lives in usa (and has for the past 4 years), he is on a foreign team/clan (i think? or atleast he was), he streams and post at tl and he talks/chats with alot of the foreign community, even helps them with strategy etc. To me he is clearly part of the foreign community. But he hasn't done it long enough, so how many months more of streaming would have made him eligible? 1, 2, 6, a year? Ofcourse such discussion is, as previously stated, ridiculous. Imo you are either in the foreign community or you are not.
I have not read all of the thread, but i have read he rules and whole OP. Apparently he falls just short, but ofcourse for tsl3 he is gonna be able to participate for sure! TL staff claims that they really wanted him to play, but they think that he wouldn't be seen as a foreigner by the majority of the community. I think that's kinda cowardice hiding behind that, is there anything supporting this theory at all? I dont think there is, but the fact that people reacted to strong now is kinda says the opposite. Do you really think if his situation was explained that people would have strongly objected to him playing?
Well this is just my 2 cents, i felt i had to post it!
Unfortunately these rules have been in place since the first TSL. It is true that they have been altered slightly to take these changes into account, but the changes do not represent a will by us to exclude nongmin, but rather a clarifying of our initial position. As you can expect, we did not foresee a situation in which a Korean living in the US would be in Korea for the duration of the TSL but still want to play. Our initial rules were simpler, they simply stated that those with a Korean IP cannot play unless an exception is made. However, as has been said, we felt that these rules unfairly prohibit foreigners in Korea from playing, so we changed them. The fact remains though that these rules and their current meaning have been in place since the TSL1.
Regarding the exception, you have to understand that the people arguing here form a very small part of the foreign SC community. Most people in the community have never heard of Nongmin because he did not participate in any tournaments, and because he has only been streaming for a couple of months. We did not quantify the number of months in order to find the exact number needed to be part of the community, instead we looked at the way the community as a whole (not the TL community specifically) would interpret the situation. And that is: "A Korean who played SC competitively in Korea moved to the US for school, but is now back in Korea." As such, we felt that Nongmin was not clearly separated from being a Korean enough to participate. Had he been in the US, or been a well known foreign member, we would have made the exception. I really do not think this can be clearer.
What I find interesting about this thread is that no-one seems to be able to provide a reason for why we would not want Nongmin to play. As has been said, the quality of games are likely to be very good if he plays, and we knew that allowing Nongmin to play would be the decision for which we would receive the least amount of complaints right now. So what motivation does the TL staff have for not allowing Nongmin to play? We've invited him to participate in the next Liquibition which shows that we value his role in the community and see him as a strong competitor. The only reason TL can have to not allowing him to play is because of the reasons we've given here. By allowing Nongmin to play, we would need to make an exception, and making an exception for a person who we feel is not perceived as a foreigner would invite discontent among the foreign players and their fans.
OK, thx for the answer. I understand your reasoning, but i still feel he should be able to participate. But thats just my opinion, and i felt the need to say it. I guess we can agree to disagree, and in the end the tl staff, ofcourse, decides. And i have no idea why tl staff would want to exclude him, exactly the same reason why i feel the rules could be changed or en exception could be made.
anyway i said what i think, and this prob wont get any further. since i prob wouldnt have posted if it wasnt for this and i dont want to seem inconsiderate; i just wanna say thanks to tl staff and pokerstrategy for making this happen!
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?
REALLY???!!!!
So that means if Idra was 'raping proleague and msl', the rules would have been different (because with the current rules he would still be allow to play)?
I think this is a wrong approach to regulations. It shouldn't be made around a few individuals (in this case, the rules were made around Idra/ret).
I understand it's extremely hard to regulate and organize such a big thing as the TSL, but at the end of the day this is for the fans and it's the fans that decide the league's success, not the players.
On November 12 2009 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever.
The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they?
Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply.
And just to add to this, for the 0.1% of situations in which the rule doesn't work, we invariably have a ten page discussion on how to proceed before making a decision, as we did in this situation.
On November 12 2009 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever.
The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they?
Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply.
it wasnt meant as an accusation. yes i can see how it can be interpretated as such, so i wanna make it clear that it isnt. thats why i explained why i saw it as that.
A rule that allows for people in the foreign community to play. The thing is he kinda lives in the usa and is just in korea for a break before coming back to school. Afaik the fact that he hadn't been in the foreign community for a long time was stated. You could make a rule that if you are a foreigner you are eligible or that you you are korean born but has lived in the us for a substantial amout of time and is part of the foreign community. yes, what is a "substantial" amount time is definitely up to interpretation, as is what is "being part of the foreign community". You could just scratch the "time in a foreign country" and i still think the rule is better than the current. In the current rules a guy like terror could move outside of korea and participate, wich as i understand is not tl's goal. I guess this could open up a discussion how this would affect tsl3. but imo its kinda clear if someone has lived in a foreign country and wether or not he takes part in the community at all. Bottom line is nongmin hasnt been able to take part in the korean scene.
"When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception."
IMO there can be an exception because he hasnt benefitted from the korean esports scene for 4 years, and imo he is a full fledged member of the foreign community (i explained this in a previous post). I guess somewhere a line has to be drawn. I respect tl's decision and i dont see any reason to keep arguing, just wanted to give my opinion even though i was pretty sure nothing was gonna be changed. I did this post to show that it wasnt an accusation and to answer your question how another rule could look like.
A rule that allows for people in the foreign community to play. The thing is he kinda lives in the usa and is just in korea for a break before coming back to school. Afaik the fact that he hadn't been in the foreign community for a long time was stated. You could make a rule that if you are a foreigner you are eligible or that you you are korean born but has lived in the us for a substantial amout of time and is part of the foreign community. yes, what is a "substantial" amount time is definitely up to interpretation, as is what is "being part of the foreign community". You could just scratch the "time in a foreign country" and i still think the rule is better than the current. In the current rules a guy like terror could move outside of korea and participate, wich as i understand is not tl's goal. I guess this could open up a discussion how this would affect tsl3. but imo its kinda clear if someone has lived in a foreign country and wether or not he takes part in the community at all. Bottom line is nongmin hasnt been able to take part in the korean scene.
Appreciate the input. The reason why we don't like "time in a foreign country" "being part of" is because it is subjective all the way. We would arbitrarily set lines for things that arguably are not meant to be put in numbers (such as being part of a community). If we had a rule about being part of the community this would allow Bisu to post some replays to get into TSL. I know it seems far fetched but it really isn't; TSL is reaching the stage where the prize money does indeed become attractive for top Koreans.
That is one reason. Another is because these suggestions are impossible to enforce for us. If we make a rule about x years in the US how do we prove someone was there for x years. I know it's shitty but as an organization you should never make rules that you have zero chance of enforcing. I hope you understand that nothing big at TL happens without everything being thoroughly discussed back and forth. These are not things we haven't thought of.
On November 12 2009 16:11 Athos wrote: I say allow Korean amateurs to play but ban idra and other progamers.
That seems the fairest way to go about things as we're creating an amateur scene and not just a foreigner one.
We have no intentions of creating an amateur scene - else we would have let amateur koreans play. This is a 100% foreign tournament. Nongmin may have lived in the US for the past 4 years - but he doesn't have american citizenship! In keeping with the spirit of the TSL this is the only call we could make.
I understand that the logic is very clear to anyone who was involved in the decision-making process. After all, you made the decision. The exceptions given to Idra and ret are arbitrary at best when considering nongmin's predicament. As a result your rules are not completely airtight and don't stand up to scrutiny, hence the discussion and uproar. Also, calling people arguing against your decision/rules 'retarded' and 'stupid' does not really help the decisions or your own credibility.
Either way, as organizer you can pretty much do as you please, as such I respect the fact that a decision has been been made, but not the decision itself or what lead to the decision.
When determining whether to grant an exception, ....
ok you start determing about an exception to the rules above.
..While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
ok sounds nice so you gonna grant him one
Ideally, Nongmin does not move to Korea and he can play in the TSL. But as long as he is in Korea, he cannot participate for the reasons outlined above.
WHAT? above where? you cannot mean the rules, this is going about an exception to the rules. and you cannot mean reasons for the exceptions for the others you are also positve there.
so you said ".. outlined above.", beeing a big text above and everyone is to lazy to watch above, 11 pages just believe the reason would be somewhere above. but it is not.
so i am waiting for the decision for the exception for nongmin yet. or you show me where your "mentioned above" is. thx. i just cant find it. sorry
On November 12 2009 23:08 timmeh wrote: I understand that the logic is very clear to anyone who was involved in the decision-making process. After all, you made the decision. The exceptions given to Idra and ret are arbitrary at best when considering nongmin's predicament. As a result your rules are not completely airtight and don't stand up to scrutiny, hence the discussion and uproar. Also, calling people arguing against your decision/rules 'retarded' and 'stupid' does not really help the decisions or your own credibility.
Either way, as organizer you can pretty much do as you please, as such I respect the fact that a decision has been been made, but not the decision itself or what lead to the decision.
Maybe you should go back and read the thread because not once have we said someone who simply disagrees with the decision retarded or stupid.
I did a ctrl+find and 0 staff have called anyone "stupid" and Kennigit wrote "lol i cant tell who is trolling and who is retarded" which is in reference to the Sorrow posts where he repeatedly misunderstood what "AND" and "OR" meant. That's one post out of several dozen, and that post isn't even directly calling anyone any names, just expressing frustration at a banned person's trolling attempt.
The vast majority of staff posts do not contain the sort of personal insults, why do you accuse us of stuff before even checking the thread? Making baseless accusations "does not really help your own credibility" either.
..While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
Ideally, Nongmin does not move to Korea and he can play in the TSL. But as long as he is in Korea, he cannot participate for the reasons outlined above.
WHAT? above where? you cannot mean the rules, this is going about an exception to the rules. and you cannot mean reasons for the exceptions for the others you are also positve there.
so you said ".. outlined above.", beeing a big text above and everyone is to lazy to watch above, 11 pages just believe the reason would be somewhere above. but it is not.
so i am waiting for the decision for the exception for nongmin yet. or you show me where your "mentioned above" is. thx. i just cant find it. sorry
You actually quoted the part where we say we're not granting him an exception. I bolded it here:
..While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously.
You responded to this quoted line "ok sounds nice so you gonna grant him one." But it does not sound nice nor does it sound like we're going to grant him one. "Above" means "before or earlier, esp. in a book or other piece of writing" and thus refers to the rules and reasons we stated earlier in the OP.
The rest of your post I don't really understand, it might be a language barrier.
now thats very simple, and i dont think theres anything lika barrier.. thx
i wanted to point out that you don't need to allow him if he resided inside the usa, thats just what the rules say.
i was just remarking that in the questioned determinition of an exception you give a positive arguement, but after that you are refering to the rules above that are out of question.
in short, the rules cannot be part of an arguement of exception to the rules, you understand ?
On November 12 2009 23:08 timmeh wrote: I understand that the logic is very clear to anyone who was involved in the decision-making process. After all, you made the decision. The exceptions given to Idra and ret are arbitrary at best when considering nongmin's predicament. As a result your rules are not completely airtight and don't stand up to scrutiny, hence the discussion and uproar. Also, calling people arguing against your decision/rules 'retarded' and 'stupid' does not really help the decisions or your own credibility.
Either way, as organizer you can pretty much do as you please, as such I respect the fact that a decision has been been made, but not the decision itself or what lead to the decision.
I'm fairly sure that you will find that we have not called those arguing against these decisions retards or idiots (unless perhaps you take one or two comments out of context).
Also, we do not believe that our exceptions regarding either Idra or ret were arbitrary, and you can see our motivations for making an exception for them throughout the thread. This does not mean that our reasons for allowing them to play cannot be criticized, in fact, we expected this level of criticism regardless of our decision as we were well aware of both sides of the argument. However, there is an important difference between making an arbitrary decision, and choosing the best solution in a difficult situation. As such, we stand by our decision, and we believe that we have made the best possible decision for the situation.
On November 12 2009 23:32 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote: now thats very simple, and i dont think theres anything lika barrier.. thx
i wanted to point out that you don't need to allow him if he resided inside the usa, thats just what the rules say.
i was just remarking that in the questioned determinition of an exception you give a positive arguement, but after that you are refering to the rules above that are out of question.
in short, the rules cannot be part of an arguement of exception to the rules, you understand ?
When we said "he cannot play for the reasons outlined above" we were pointing to the justifications behind why we decided to not let him play -- we gave several reasons for why we felt certain players should be granted exceptions and certain players shouldn't. We weren't simply saying "oh nongmin shouldn't play because the rules above say he shouldn't play." We felt there needed to be more explanation than that, which is why the OP is several paragraphs instead of one sentence.
On November 12 2009 23:32 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote: now thats very simple, and i dont think theres anything lika barrier.. thx
i wanted to point out that you don't need to allow him if he resided inside the usa, thats just what the rules say.
i was just remarking that in the questioned determinition of an exception you give a positive arguement, but after that you are refering to the rules above that are out of question.
in short, the rules cannot be part of an arguement of exception to the rules, you understand ?
When we said "he cannot play for the reasons outlined above" we were pointing to the justifications behind why we decided to not let him play -- we gave several reasons for why we felt certain players should be granted exceptions and certain players shouldn't. We weren't simply saying "oh nongmin shouldn't play because the rules above say he shouldn't play." We felt there needed to be more explanation than that, which is why the OP is several paragraphs instead of one sentence.
so reasons for no exception are not above in the text, but at the head of the ones taking part in the decision?
i thought this
When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously...
was part of the decision for or against an exception.
and this
Ideally, Nongmin does not move to Korea and he can play in the TSL. But as long as he is in Korea, he cannot participate for the reasons outlined above.
is the decision and you decide against, dont mention the reason because they are beyond public and let the rule exclude him, did i get it right ?
I realise this is a difficult decision with good arguments for both sides, but why is him being in Korea at the time so much of an issue? It seems like the deciding factors should be how long he's lived in the states, how involved he is with the foreign scene and following from that whether or not he's viewed as a member of the foreign community. Not letting him play because he happens to be on holiday in Korea at the time seems like an arbitrary criterion to solve a difficult problem.
I don't know how else to explain it, other than that the OP, taken as a whole, outlines our reasoning behind why Nongmin didn't get an exception. I'm not going to argue how you interpret the word "above."
Considering this is a foreign tournament, and foreign pretty much means "non-Korean".
P/S: I'm not sure about the Chinese though. They do have professional SC over there.
As nice and clean a rule as that may sound, there is no way to know if a Korean citizen is actually playing in the United States. Since this is an online tournament, how would we check if someone is a Korean citizen? Are we going to take a video of them playing? A Korean citizen who wanted to play from the US could simply say he's someone else, and there's no real way to verify it. Further, how do we even know who to ask for verification? You can't tell just by someone's username whether he is Korean or not.
This "impossibility of enforcement" played a role in our decision to allow Nongmin if he resided in the United States. However, we can see IP addresses, which is why we are able to not allow Korean citizens in Korea.
I realise this is a difficult decision with good arguments for both sides, but why is him being in Korea at the time so much of an issue?
It becomes an issue because it's against the rules. I have yet to see anyone come up with a better set of rules. If you have been reading the topic you probably agree that the set of rules is a very realistic representation of the ideology of TSL. The rules are good, but of course no rule applies 100% according to its intent, and thus we have carefully looked into this case.
It seems like the deciding factors should be how long he's lived in the states, how involved he is with the foreign scene and following from that whether or not he's viewed as a member of the foreign community. Not letting him play because he happens to be on holiday in Korea at the time seems like an arbitrary criterion to solve a difficult problem
This is all explained by Hot_Bid in the OP, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Arbitrary would be not looking into it at all and sticking by your rules no matter what. That's not what we have done so it is not arbitrary. These things you bring up are also brought up in our explanation.
Alright, since none of this discussion is going to change anything for TSL2, let's talk about this "if he has obtained foreigner recognition by TSL3, he can play" requirement. Since livestreaming was deemed inadequate, it seems that "he has not participated in foreign tournaments" is one of the only explicit ways to quantify "foreigner recognition". But when TSL3 rolls around, since he can't play in TSL2, how will the situation change with regards to this "recognition"?
"You can play in the tournament if you have participated in previous tournaments." and "You can't participate in this instance of the tournament." means that he'll never have this tournament participation which seems to be seen as the mark of being part of the foreigner community.
Alright, since none of this discussion is going to change anything for TSL2, let's talk about this "if he has obtained foreigner recognition by TSL3, he can play" requirement. Since livestreaming was deemed inadequate, it seems that "he has not participated in foreign tournaments" is one of the only explicit ways to quantify "foreigner recognition".
It's really not solely going to be about foreigner recognition. For example (unrelated to the discussion) I'm sure if Sea would be livestreaming and had 5000 posts on TL.net that everyone would support him joining the tournament as well. If he can join then the next Korean can also start streaming and make the same claims. That's what foreigner recognition can do if put into exact rules.
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
But when TSL3 rolls around, since he can't play in TSL2, how will the situation change with regards to this "recognition"?
If he's in the USA like he says he might be there's no problem. If not however and it is going to be about an exemption again it's very very hard to put a number or definition to it. It will have to be dealt with accordingly when it happens.
On November 12 2009 23:08 timmeh wrote: I understand that the logic is very clear to anyone who was involved in the decision-making process. After all, you made the decision. The exceptions given to Idra and ret are arbitrary at best when considering nongmin's predicament. As a result your rules are not completely airtight and don't stand up to scrutiny, hence the discussion and uproar. Also, calling people arguing against your decision/rules 'retarded' and 'stupid' does not really help the decisions or your own credibility.
Either way, as organizer you can pretty much do as you please, as such I respect the fact that a decision has been been made, but not the decision itself or what lead to the decision.
I'm fairly sure that you will find that we have not called those arguing against these decisions retards or idiots (unless perhaps you take one or two comments out of context).
Also, we do not believe that our exceptions regarding either Idra or ret were arbitrary, and you can see our motivations for making an exception for them throughout the thread. This does not mean that our reasons for allowing them to play cannot be criticized, in fact, we expected this level of criticism regardless of our decision as we were well aware of both sides of the argument. However, there is an important difference between making an arbitrary decision, and choosing the best solution in a difficult situation. As such, we stand by our decision, and we believe that we have made the best possible decision for the situation.
True, the exceptions are not arbitrary considering what a foreign tournament is trying to achieve. And I can clearly see that. But the rules are laid out in such a manner that the exceptions appear as arbitrary - if not that, then at least very biased - because in your decision-making you are constantly weighing
(a) has lived in X for Y length (b)has/had access to certain strarcraft material/scene/help/training etc. and possibly (c) nationality against each other.
Now the following point is completely subjective on my part. But I think you would have done yourself a lot easier if the ruleset just said: Eligible players are: 1) Players with a non-Korean nationality 2) Right of admission reserved concerning special case scenarios for Koreans nationals outside of Korea (such as nongmin in this case)
I understand that if it were laid out like this, there a certain implications as well, not to forget the ensuing forum whine
Either way. I think promoting the foreign scene is awesome and it is definitely not what I have a gripe with but the rule-set instead.
On the personal insult bit. I understand he didn't literally say who is retarded or trolling (my bad on the stupid part), but his comment bears certain implications - either you are trolling [which I doubt because I believe most people have sincere intentions concerning this topic] or your response is retarded. If I misinterpreted this, my apologies.
Bottom line, I think it is a shame that nongmin cannot compete. It is good that you stand by your decision, and I have no intention to sway it either way.
Now the following point is completely subjective on my part. But I think you would have done yourself a lot easier if the ruleset just said: Eligible players are: 1) Players with a non-Korean nationality
You gotta think of the bigger picture. Enforceability. A Korean playing from the USA is impossible to exclude if he fakes a passport. To pretend to be able to uphold such a rule of nationality no matter what the IP location is going to lead to enormous complications. It simply cannot be done.
Like I said I have not seen anyone come up with a better set of rules for the things we aspire. People come up with "how the rules should be" but it is often unfortunately a very shortsighted argument.
I realise this is a difficult decision with good arguments for both sides, but why is him being in Korea at the time so much of an issue?
It becomes an issue because it's against the rules. I have yet to see anyone come up with a better set of rules. If you have been reading the topic you probably agree that the set of rules is a very realistic representation of the ideology of TSL. The rules are good, but of course no rule applies 100% according to its intent, and thus we have carefully looked into this case.
It seems like the deciding factors should be how long he's lived in the states, how involved he is with the foreign scene and following from that whether or not he's viewed as a member of the foreign community. Not letting him play because he happens to be on holiday in Korea at the time seems like an arbitrary criterion to solve a difficult problem
This is all explained by Hot_Bid in the OP, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Arbitrary would be not looking into it at all and sticking by your rules no matter what. That's not what we have done so it is not arbitrary. These things you bring up are also brought up in our explanation.
Eh, sorry nevermind, I didn't read the OP carefully enough. I thought your line of reasoning was that you were willing to make an exception for nogmin if he remained in the states, but not willing to make it if he went to Korea. Didn't realize you actually decided against making an exception for him, but if he remained in the states, he'd be allowed to play anyway according to the rules.
I guess the only argument that can be made against your decision then is that looking at all the replies this has generated it seems as though people already feel very strongly that nongmin belongs to the foreign (and TL) scene and letting him play would both be interesting for the viewers and 'help promote the foreign SC'.
Also, I don't think we need to be worried about more Koreans wanting to play if you allowed nongmin in. He's a unique case and the chances that semi-progamers are going to make livestreams and move out of SK so they can play in TSL3 are probably slim. :p
A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy.
And the part about enforcing someone living in USA and is a Korean professional or similar situation ... well in any set of rules you wouldn't be able to 100% verify and exclude such a player from the tourney.
On November 13 2009 01:11 _awake_ wrote: idra and ret should be allowed to play if they don't reside in Korea during the tournament
Have you read? Idra and Ret are allowed to play even though they reside in Korea. They are granted a special exception because they made important contributions to the foreigner community. This thread is about why Nongmin was not granted a special exception.
On November 13 2009 01:01 lac29 wrote: A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy.
Yeah, that wouldn't generate a massive shitstorm :p
On November 12 2009 15:04 lac29 wrote: All my posts were deleted and I thought I was more than reasonable with the wording of my posts. Oh well, I just view it as some ppl don't take criticism very well =/.
Edit: I had checked before and did not see them in either thread. Apparently someone moved them so now they're missing.
On November 13 2009 01:01 lac29 wrote: A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy.
Yeah, that wouldn't generate a massive shitstorm :p
But the logic would make more sense imo. It's easier for me to see why you would deem Idra more worthy since his contribution to TL (has been greater than nonmingzerg) than the current reasoning and awkward rules (imo) that are a result. The public's perspective would (again imo) be a lot less negative if you were to go that route in rule wording instead of the one you actually used.
Then again, I personally don't think Idra, Ret, or nonming should be allowed to play (bc Idra being a proSC player and nonming having proSC associations in the past ... Ret would have the best argument to be allowed to play [under my suggested rules] but it really depends on if he is currently with a proSC team ... fact is they all have fairly easy access to the Korean SC scene and all the tourneys Korea has to offer).
As for the deleted posts I should have added "not" before "missing". I had checked shortly before the massive rearranging/locking of posts and my posts were gone. But since then they've reappeared so thanks.
Edit: I also find it strange that there seems to be no staff that actually disagree (which imo seems very unlikely). So either those staff members just don't want to say their opinion or the staff has agreed to agree together.
Edit2: And under the rules I suggested you could probably exclude nonmingzerg because of his previous/current association with proSC.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold.
Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday.
This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception.
Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to not make an exception for him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction.
So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted.
I hope this clears up you confusion
EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
I must say that it makes me sad to see this decision but still, I understand your stand-point and I think daigomi's post makes the thought process perfectly clear, and absolutely acceptable. I suggest you quote it in the OP so that people who aren't as good mannered as I am (and actually read all the 10 pages until i stumbled upon that gem, before posting) have a chance to see your reasoning in a clear light before they embarass themselves with angry posts. Just a thought.
lollllll. I can't believe I read through this whole thread -_-;;;;
"HURRRR DURRR he can't play!!?! U want IDRA TO WIN JUS SAY IT no biggie!" My god. Like how clear can the staff make it that they tried to get him in? Seriously. The guy has 15 posts, understands why he can't be included and imo is taking this like a class act. Why can't his fans do the same?
It's not THAT hard to understand why he's not included and Idra and Ret are. Seriously *facepalm*
And let's remember that everyone thought Idra would win the first TSL. Did that happen? No. Was the TSL still a huge ass success? Yes. The staff knows that Idra and Ret or not this tournament is going to be awesome with it's prize pool.. there's no hidden motive and I think at this point 90% of the people posting in this thread are unintentionally trolling.
Maybe myself included. Lol. Props to the TL staff for just being upfront about it. Can't wait for this TSL.
It seems to me that you know enough about his situation to grant him an exeption of the rule.
The only reason he can't play is because he takes a flight to another country and plays from there. It doesn't really change that much about his situation...
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
Give the same treatment to Nongmin.
At least make some attempt to understand our reasoning. Potential smurfing has absolutely nothing to do with it.
On November 13 2009 02:44 T.O.P. wrote: Give the same treatment to Nongmin.
You really gotta stop pushing it. Nothing that was said about Nongmin anywhere has anything to do with the identification of his play. Your posts show up everywhere without any sense of reading or trying to make accurate statements. It is very tiring.
now we get contradictory. then why would he be allowed to play if he were in the US during TSL?
i believe i understand the reasoning being used but not the "logic"...or the other way around im not so sure myself
He would be allowed to play in the US because our rules state:
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand.
Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote: The TSL is a tournament by foreigners and for foreigners, with its ultimate goal the promotion of professional BW and BW players outside of Korea. Thus it breaks with the spirit of the tournament, its organizers, and its sponsors to allow entry from players who originated in Korea's BW scene.
Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not?
On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote: Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
plz dont back off. No i'm not caling you out, no im not trolling. I just seriously (like most likely most of us) want a "straighter" answer per se.
On November 13 2009 02:53 xMiragex wrote: Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not?
I'll tell you again, and again. Because apparently you refuse to read the topic.
Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand.
The allowance of people (Koreans) playing outside of Korea is partially based on the impossibility of enforcing otherwise. It is not ideology you should be referring to when we say he is allowed to play from the US. Like explained before it is impossible not to allow people of certain nationalities to play from other countries. So we must allow them. It's simple as that. Some rules are made on ideology and others on practicality. You should not confuse one with the other, especially not when it has been explained over and over 10 times before.
On November 13 2009 02:53 xMiragex wrote: Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not?
I'll tell you again, and again. Because apparently you refuse to read the topic.
Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand.
The allowance of people (Koreans) playing outside of Korea is partially based on the impossibility of enforcing otherwise. It is not ideology you should be referring to when we say he is allowed to play from the US.
This brings us to the very difficult issue of Nongminzerg. Nongmin was born in Korea and moved to the United States for high school. While Nongmin was offered KTF training matches, he was never officially affiliated with any professional team. When Nongmin first asked us if he could play in the TSL, we replied that he would be allowed to play, provided he resided inside the United States. Nongmin informed us that he would be moving back to Korea for the duration of the TSL, possibly until the summer of 2010 -- which would make him ineligible to play, unless we grant him a special exception.
Well now im confused as to why nongmin can't compete. Is it because it is "impossible" to create such rules w/o tsl being flooded by koreans? But in reality staff wants him to compete but can't because that will open up for more koreans from korea. So for that 0.1% that the rule wont apply to as it should i have made an addition.
This is what the rules could look like: A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team * Exceptions can be made if [a player has been unable to take part/benefit from the korean scene and has (instead?) taken part in the foreign scene/community.]
That's the best i can come up with, but really you can put whatever you want in those brackets, for example: [tl deems it reasonable to invite another player into the tournament], [a player is unable to participate in the korean scene], [a player is part of the foreign scene].
The reason i propose this addition to the current rule-set The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules.
Therefore i came up with a ruleset that could include korean born people who does not and can not (wether they want or not) paritcipate in the korean scene. The addition wont let in any koreans that shouldnt be in there and cannot be exploited/abused, but still grants those 0.1% to play. And even if it could we have the fact that it says exceptions can be made not will be made. Besides it is much easier to just move out of korea if you want to participate in TSL2 then do all you need to do to be one of the "exceptions". And to me it's pretty clear wich situations will allow an exception to possibly be made.
On November 13 2009 02:58 xMiragex wrote: the last part is from the OP
read: "partially"
The other part is ideology of being incapable of putting an amount of years, English knowledge and whatnot on someones stay. You're reading into stuff.
The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules.
I have no comment to this. When discussing exemption we have made our reasoning clear as can be found in the OP and rest of the thread, but I also think opposite views have legit reasoning. That means you have valid points as well as the other side has valid points. Bringing them up again puts nothing new to the table because these are all things we have weighed against each other.
On November 13 2009 02:58 xMiragex wrote: the last part is from the OP
read: "partially"
The other part is ideology of being incapable of putting an amount of years, English knowledge and whatnot on someones stay. You're reading into stuff.
The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules.
I have no comment to this. When discussing exemption we have made our reasoning clear as can be found in the OP and rest of the thread, but I also think opposite views have legit reasoning. That means you have valid points as well as the other side has valid points. Bringing them up again puts nothing new to the table because these are all things we have weighed against each other.
i can bring up more, but thats enough for me i suppose. Thanks
I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity.
Reading over the thoughts of everyone and TL's view on this my own opinion is that if you want a strong amateur foreigner competition it seems foolish to keep a good competitor out on these grounds.
I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about.
On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity.
It is NOT a question of identity. Nowhere in the thread has that been said or implied. What has been said is that the rule - "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team" - is partially based on the question of identity. It has nothing to do with the situation at hand. This motivation has been brought up because people have questioned the rules.
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?
REALLY???!!!!
So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote: This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?
REALLY???!!!!
If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever.
There is nothing to discuss , TSL is made for the foreign community. there would obviously be no problem if nongmin was a C level player , but if he plays TSL he's got a good chance of winning it, and of course TSL admins don't want a korean to win their foreign tour.
By the way I don't get why Idra with such an advantage on everyone else (he's the only professionnal player allowed there ! ) has the chance to play TSL. I mean he's already making money from starcraft and now TSL gives him a shot at 10 000$...
So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it.
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices.
This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims.
-------------------------------------------------
This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well.
"Foreigner" is a word that can be used interchangeably with "non Asian." I'm curious to what nationality/ethnicity will reign in SC 2; I'd hate to not be able to keep track of who a foreigner is. Once you become pro, not only do you get payed to play SC, but you are going to have a huge advantage on any "foreign" player that just plays on iccup. In SC 2 when perhaps a lot more "foreign" players become pro, would you still have a tourney that didn't exclude pro gamers? Everyone loves an underdog story, but in the future it would seem impossible to give amateur players a fair chance.
In short: this way of thinking seems problematic in the future, so may as well think about addressing it now.
I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about.
It was explicitly called an amateur tournament in an earlier post. If it is simply a tournament with foreigners with no question as to experience then that is that.
On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity.
It is NOT a question of identity. Nowhere in the thread has that been said or implied. What has been said is that the rule - "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team" - is partially based on the question of identity. It has nothing to do with the situation at hand. This motivation has been brought up because people have questioned the rules.
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
It is heavily implied that it is the case however when you posted this in response to his elgibility...
So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it.
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices.
This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims.
-------------------------------------------------
This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well.
I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about.
It was explicitly called an amateur tournament in an earlier post. If it is simply a tournament with foreigners with no question as to experience then that is that.
That is indeed the case, as we have plenty of foreigners who have had pro-experience. For example, not just Idra, but Draco, Legionnaire, Nony, etc have all been influenced by their time in Korea, some more than others.
On November 12 2009 11:45 T.O.P. wrote: It feels like the rules were made specifically to stop Nongmin from playing in the TSL.
They were made to stop the zillions of amateur Koreans who have easy access to the pro scene from playing. Unfortunately, with Nongmin being in Korea, and having grown up in Korea (and having even been offered test games with KT), there's not much differentiating him from them.
This is all I needed to hear. It should be edited in the first post because it's makes sense out of everything.
One point that I think is left out is the idea of having the opportunity for quality (be it money/good players) SC tournaments. Granted I like Idra and Ret, but they (and anyone playing in Korea) have many more opportunities compared to the foreigners not in Korea.
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
I think progamers are "affiliated with a SC progaming team" so they would not be able to play in the TSL.
On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote: Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
Yet it attracted idra and ret, both have much higher chance of winning than everyone else (remember idra at valor?). If nongminzerg is being excluded because he could possibly "ruin" the event, I don't see how idra and ret cannot. Especially idra and his altitude towards other foreign players not currently in Korea.
I do not feel that the fact that he is moving back to Korea for a few months should warrant being ineligible - I think that it'd be better if it was something along the lines of "has not lived in a country that has a professional SC scene for the past five years" or something like that.
I don't agree with the decision to keep Nongmin out of the tournament, although I do realize that it is a hard decision and that the admins are looking out for the interests of a lot of people in this matter, so I guess I have to respect their decision.
On November 13 2009 07:38 G0dly wrote: I do not feel that the fact that he is moving back to Korea for a few months should warrant being ineligible - I think that it'd be better if it was something along the lines of "has not lived in a country that has a professional SC scene for the past five years" or something like that.
The way I see it, it is more like:
1. If you are effectively Korean (not talking about race, but culturally), then you should not be allowed to play in this TSL.
2. However, if you are effectively Korean but located somewhere with a non-Korean IP, it would be extremely unpractical to ban you from the TSL, since it will be ridiculous to check your nationality, background, etc.
The reason why Nongminzerg is prohibited from playing is because he is effectively Korean, not because he happens to be living in Korea. It's not that he becomes ineligible if he moves to Korea, but more along the lines of: if he stays in the USA, he becomes exempt (because it would be impractical to ban those like him).
Likewise, Idra and Ret are not effectively Korean, so they are allowed to play in the TSL even though they have a Korean IP. The reason why this is reasonable to enforce is because presumably there are far less non-Koreans in Korea than there are Koreans in non-Korean countries (in terms of competitive starcraft players at least).
My guess is you don't quite give a shit on users opinion, specially on the opinion of someone that reads tl for more then a year and has an account for a month or two, but just like I felt the need to tell Rekrul something about cars(and made the account) I do feel the need to tell you my opinion on this issue.
In my opinion TSL is meant to be the toughest competition in Starcraft for a foreigner, Nongmin is to me a foreigner, same as Idra is. If we are talking about who has an advantage, then Idra has nothing to do with this competition. So as long as Idra is playing, the worst thing to do would be to not allow Nongmin.
After all it is your website, your competition and your decision to take, same as it is mine decision to read TL like before or quit reading it, to not watch TSL2, or to change my mind about registering on PokerStrategy. I am sure losing me it's like deciding to not see a re-raised flop in poker with 92 offsuited, but what if there are more people that would suddenly won't find this site as interesting as before because of your decisions?
Ohh, and one more reason for which I posted. A while ago I wanted to sponsor a Starcraft tournament in my own country but after daily buzzing one of the staff and receiveing no word from him I just changed my mind. Now I am sure I wouldn't do that again(search people to offer money to increase the prize pool of the tournaments they organize).
no offense, but i'd say a vast majority (if not all) of TL users wont stop coming due to a single issue like this. I'd like to think we'll just learn from our mistakes if we did make the wrong decision.
Totally uncool, Nongmin should be in this tournament, no point arguing though teamliquid staff runs the tournment and they can do whatever they want, even if majority of the site users think otherwise
On November 13 2009 13:47 TheDoctor wrote: Totally uncool, Nongmin should be in this tournament, no point arguing though teamliquid staff runs the tournment and they can do whatever they want, even if majority of the site users think otherwise
You have to account for the fact that if a ruling favors people of a certain opinion, their voices won't be as loudly heard. Though I still think that a majority on this site does think otherwise, but it's not as decisive as this thread would indicate.
I spent the last half hour reading this thread instead of going to bed. The sea of posts that were written without reading the OP really bogged the thread down by making the "uproar" seem bigger than it really is.
I would have liked to see Nongmin play, and hopefully he stays in the US so he can, but I agree with the Staff decision. All of this breaks down to: this is a tournament for foreigners. The term "foreigners" has been defined by the staff in a very fair way so we're going to enjoy TSL2 as a fantastic foreigner tournament.
I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
E.g. So many people seem to think the rules were made to exclude nongmin, when they were actually made to include him. (Unfortunatly he goes on vacation and the rules excludes him regardless).
On November 13 2009 19:20 Ota Solgryn wrote:So many people seem to think the rules were made to exclude nongmin, when they were actually made to include him.
I was going to stay out of the thread since I had posted everything I wanted to express, but this is not true, as if the admins really wanted to include him, they could easily change the rules. The admins are setting the rules with the people they want to include/exclude in mind; it's not as if they wrote the rule then discovered "Oops, we just accidently included/excluded person X." And there's no need to say "Oh if the rule is changed to allow perxon X, then it'll allow this entire other group of people we don't want to include," as it's an easy problem to solve. Here's something that would work, for example, and wouldn't require a vague "grew up in", etc. just to somehow allow a few people currently living in South Korea:
Rule 1: People living in South Korea, or those who are paid by and esports team are not allowed to participate. Rule 2: The following list of people are allowed to participate even if they don't qualify under rule 1 - ret, Idra, etc.
On November 13 2009 18:24 Pholon wrote: I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
For the record, lilsusie and uhjoo are both ineligible for the TSL.
On November 13 2009 19:20 Ota Solgryn wrote:So many people seem to think the rules were made to exclude nongmin, when they were actually made to include him.
I was going to stay out of the thread since I had posted everything I wanted to express, but this is not true, as if the admins really wanted to include him, they could easily change the rules. The admins are setting the rules with the people they want to include/exclude in mind; it's not as if they wrote the rule then discovered "Oops, we just accidently included/excluded person X." And there's no need to say "Oh if the rule is changed to allow perxon X, then it'll allow this entire other group of people we don't want to include," as it's an easy problem to solve. Here's something that would work, for example, and wouldn't require a vague "grew up in", etc. just to somehow allow a few people currently living in South Korea:
Rule 1: People living in South Korea, or those who are paid by and esports team are not allowed to participate. Rule 2: The following list of people are allowed to participate even if they don't qualify under rule 1 - ret, Idra, etc.
Your rules don't work. The admins want the TSL to be a foreigner tournament and your rules allow korean amatures. The idea is that koreans have enough tournaments (a huge percentage of the SC scene and prize money) and so there should be more foreigner tournaments to encourage SC outside of the established pro scene.
All of these points have been addressed before. Make sure you read through the entire thread to understand the situation.
Edit:Oh, and there isn't enough hype in this thread. Every thread should have a TSL, fuck yeah!
First you say he can play then he cant play due to him moving. If he's allowed to play in TSL3 he obviously fit the demands, the only reason he can't play in this tournament is because he takes a flight to korea right before the tourny starts. Will he suddenly become a pro-gamer? Why couldn't you make an exception for him?
This thread makes me think of George Orwell's animal farm
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
That said, I feel (not that TSL management would give a rat's nut about it) nongmin should in let in the tourney under current language of the rules. I respect Hot_bid and the TL staff immensely, but they should be more honest with their intentions...
Just say
*No Asians unless they lived most of their life in non-china/korea *Players affiliated with a pro-team may not participate unless they are are a ratings hit and TSL would fail miserably without them(IdrA, yay!, ret, yay! [fine, ret not anymore, but still, IdrA is @ CJ]) *Exceptions to the above rules can be made but if and only IF the contestant is not a Korean
On November 14 2009 00:59 win8282 wrote: This thread makes me think of George Orwell's animal farm
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
That said, I feel (not that TSL management would give a rat's nut about it) nongmin should in let in the tourney under current language of the rules. I respect Hot_bid and the TL staff immensely, but they should be more honest with their intentions...
Just say
*No Asians unless they lived most of their life in non-china/korea
That's basically what we said with the rule about growing up in a non-BW proscene country.
*Players affiliated with a pro-team may not participate unless they are are a ratings hit and TSL would fail miserably without them(IdrA, yay!, ret, yay! [fine, ret not anymore, but still, IdrA is @ CJ])
This is our "part of the foreigner community for a long time" exception. Legionnaire, Rekrul, etc all fit under this. If IdrA was a Korean born and raised in America and moved to Korea to play BW, he'd still fit under this.
*Exceptions to the above rules can be made but if and only IF the contestant is not a Korean
Nope, this is untrue, we said Nongmin could play if he was in the United States. I know several Korean-Americans born in Korea who will play in the TSL. We're not banning them -- more for impossibility of enforcement reasons than anything else -- but we're still not banning them. Again, if IdrA was a Korean-American who was a big part of the foreigner scene, we'd still allow him. If there was a white guy born and raised and living/playing in Korea, we'd ban him. It has nothing to do with race.
I don't know why people think we're like these villains hiding things, when we've been very clear and open about everything. When you read these rules, do you not understand our reasoning behind them? Do you think we are truly "not being honest" about our intentions? Do you really think we believe that you the audience is so stupid that you wouldn't understand these points that you listed in the "just say this" part? Please give us a little more credit than that. We know what people will think, and we have nothing to hide.
On November 13 2009 18:24 Pholon wrote: I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
For the record, lilsusie and uhjoo are both ineligible for the TSL.
Its a shame to hear he wont be allowed to participate but i respect how difficult it must have been for you to come to this decision. Great to hear he will be able to play in TSL3 if he is in the US.
On November 13 2009 18:24 Pholon wrote: I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
For the record, lilsusie and uhjoo are both ineligible for the TSL.
If I was in charge, I too would ban Xellos from TSL2
On November 13 2009 19:20 Ota Solgryn wrote:So many people seem to think the rules were made to exclude nongmin, when they were actually made to include him.
I was going to stay out of the thread since I had posted everything I wanted to express, but this is not true, as if the admins really wanted to include him, they could easily change the rules. The admins are setting the rules with the people they want to include/exclude in mind; it's not as if they wrote the rule then discovered "Oops, we just accidently included/excluded person X." And there's no need to say "Oh if the rule is changed to allow perxon X, then it'll allow this entire other group of people we don't want to include," as it's an easy problem to solve. Here's something that would work, for example, and wouldn't require a vague "grew up in", etc. just to somehow allow a few people currently living in South Korea:
Rule 1: People living in South Korea, or those who are paid by and esports team are not allowed to participate. Rule 2: The following list of people are allowed to participate even if they don't qualify under rule 1 - ret, Idra, etc.
Its still increadible. You still don't get it. And you still actually think they made it to exclude him.
Perhaps I was being too specific. Maybe I should have written "rules were made to include people like nongmin".
I mean, he is obviously not the only one in that situation, just the most "known". Unfortonatly Nongmin got hurt by this exact rule because he goes back to korea (which they found out after making the rules). But they probably made the rules as they are to include other asians living e.g. in the US
And your rules does not make sense. Especially number two. I really believe the organisers are trying to keep it as objective as it can, while still allowing people like ret and idra and koreans that have lived outside korea to participate. Making a rule that specifically allows some players is some of the most subjective element I can think of.
Finally, yes, you can most like find some crazy wording that allows nongmin regardless, but where does it end? Then some other players would maybe be disalowed or it would include some players that are not beneficial for foreign SC.
On November 13 2009 18:24 Pholon wrote: I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
For the record, lilsusie and uhjoo are both ineligible for the TSL.
Would have been best if the rules for TSL2 eligibility actually came out when TSL2 was announced.
Now look at all this dumb shit, which easily could have been avoided. Announcing a tournament and not making it clear who can attend, and then making rules excluding people from it afterwards is just stupid and an obvious lack of foresight.
On November 14 2009 07:04 jiabung wrote: Would have been best if the rules for TSL2 eligibility actually came out when TSL2 was announced.
Now look at all this dumb shit, which easily could have been avoided. Announcing a tournament and not making it clear who can attend, and then making rules excluding people from it afterwards is just stupid and an obvious lack of foresight.
This is not what happened. You are making grossly inaccurate accusations that don't fairly depict the situation. Had the rules been flipped the other way there'd be just as many people crying about how nongmin is a korean amateur playing courage, offered proteam testing, playing from Korea and about how its not fair to allow him in a foreigner tournament.
I think everyone agrees its not an easy decision to make, so you insulting us, calling us stupid, and saying this "dumb shit" situation is easy to avoid is just not true. Eligibility rules for TSL were not made after the fact to exclude any particular person and we clearly put a lot of thought and consideration into all our decisions.
You can disagree, but do it respectfully -- consider this a warning.
I admire how calm and sound Hot_Bid, Kennigit and other staff members explain the decisions. Not just explain once but do it over and over again so that every last one is satisfied.
Conspiracy theory about how TL staff keep people out of tournaments that have a good skill level to win and let people that are great friends to be allowed to play as exceptions to rules.
Details about how the staff decided to start the tournament after hearing about Nongmins trip to use as an excuse to boot him out of the tournament.
Further rationalization of such theories and last sentence telling about how leaving this forum would hurt but would rather do it for the sake of fairness.
On a more serious note, him not being able to play is quite unfortunate.. because it is probably the only SC tournament with a huge prize that he is even going to be slightly eligable in despite being korean. Unless a TSL 3 were to show up about a week after this one ends ^.^
I wouldn't say all the staff were calm ... as you see from some edits. It's a good move though to reopen this thread instead of locking it and going about like nothing happened. At least it allows ppl to vent. And I think most ppl who disagree with the decision DO in fact realize the low to no probability of the rule changing simply because the majority want certain rules/eligibility requirements.
On November 14 2009 08:37 lac29 wrote: I wouldn't say all the staff were calm ... as you see from some edits. It's a good move though to reopen this thread instead of locking it and going about like nothing happened. At least it allows ppl to vent. And I think most ppl who disagree with the decision DO in fact realize the low to no probability of the rule changing simply because the majority want certain rules/eligibility requirements.
I don't think its a foregone conclusion that the majority want nongmin to play. The hundreds that watch his stream are far more likely to post here than the people that don't know him, or would oppose his participation.
I don't really know what to say to the people who think there's some conspiracy, like we're somehow rigging the tournament for our "friends" (and those who think we'd do it for Idra, lol you don't know our relationship with Idra ). Do you really think that we'd risk the credibility and reputation of our tournament and website over something as petty as who gets the final prize? The vast majority of our staff is NOT American. I don't see anyone saying there was a conspiracy that we stacked the TSL1 against Idra when he got the harder (White-Ra and Draco) side of the bracket.
On November 14 2009 08:37 lac29 wrote: I wouldn't say all the staff were calm ... as you see from some edits. It's a good move though to reopen this thread instead of locking it and going about like nothing happened. At least it allows ppl to vent. And I think most ppl who disagree with the decision DO in fact realize the low to no probability of the rule changing simply because the majority want certain rules/eligibility requirements.
I don't think its a foregone conclusion that the majority want nongmin to play. The hundreds that watch his stream are far more likely to post here than the people that don't know him, or would oppose his participation.
I don't really know what to say to the people who think there's some conspiracy, like we're somehow rigging the tournament for our "friends" (and those who think we'd do it for Idra, lol you don't know our relationship with Idra ). Do you really think that we'd risk the credibility and reputation of our tournament and website over something as petty as who gets the final prize? The vast majority of our staff is NOT American. I don't see anyone saying there was a conspiracy that we stacked the TSL1 against Idra when he got the harder (White-Ra and Draco) side of the bracket.
I wasn't there to come up with such a ridiculous conspiracy!
And if Nong was at most, a B player would it have changed the decision at all ? :o
Althou I am an "fan"? of nongmin, watch his stream whenever it pops-up, really sad he cant play in the tourny, I completly understand the rules. How come theres so much anger in this thread? TSL is here, we should be all celebrating!
Had to throw my 2 cents even if it doesnt count for much, and thank you all who made all of this possible, sponsors - staff (especially staff) without you this wouldnt be possible. Even thou Im far to busy to participate (or a better wording, as Im a D player and wont have a chance heheh)
I had to make this post, even if it comes on deaf ears and no 1 will read it, I still wanted to post it just to show my support and will surely watch all the casts when the real *TSL* tournament starts!
Why not issue an exception for nongmin anyway? Are there really that many other A-A- korean students who are studying in the US and just happen to be traveling back to Korea during the time of the tournament?
I mention it because generally the thought with not issuing exceptions like this is that it would open up the floodgates or something for a bunch of people in similar situations to claim entrance. That just doesn't seem likely here. No one will bitch about how it's unfair that nongmin got let in but they didn't, because no one else is in the same situation.
the think the TL staff wants players unexposed to the korean pro scene unless they are valuable to the foreign community
even though nongmin has just started streaming, you can clearly see his impact on the foreign sc scene by the outcry to let him play. obviously he's a famous enough player in the foreign community for an exception to be made just like idra/ret.
in just 3 short months nongmin has made a ton of fans with his streams and is already liked as much if not more than idra.
P.S. i'd like to thank the TL staff for keeping the topic open and answering with maturity and not defensiveness. i understand it is their decision; i just wanted to state my opinion on the matter.
Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments. Seriously when you make the rules like this you make it seem more like racism then enforcing fair play. "Professional gamers are allowed to participate as long as they are not of a certain race." Fucking ridiculous.
I am really sad for nongmin, totally looked forward seeing him play at the TSL2. I know this was a hard decision to make but can't you see the overwhelming response to this? Why not make this special exception and allow him to play... it's just unfortunate timing that he is moving to korea at this time (AND he will move back.) It's not like TSL is a random event...
So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it.
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices.
This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims.
-------------------------------------------------
This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well.
It's funny how you admins state the rules of being a member of the foreign community. We, your members, are the community. You can't speak for all of us in that sense.
But I agree this is your tournament and I have to accept your unfortunate decisionmaking in this case.
While it is ultimately the decision of the TL staff, it really is a shame this is how it all turned out in the end. It's a given that there are plenty of things that were discussed amongst the TL staff that will (for good reason) probably never surface for regular members of this forum to see. From the perspective of any regular member of this forum who obviously has not been in the staff discussions, reading beyond the words into the intent...it's still unclear as to why an exception to the rule is not being made for Nongmin.
What is the meaning behind the eligibility rules? Leaving aside the obvious first rule regarding lag, the other two rules basically state:
- Grew up outside Korea/China. - Currently resides outside Korea/China AND isn't a progamer.
First off, let's look at the second rule. Why exclude progamers? I'm sure plenty of people would love to see their favourite progamer play against their favourite amateur. Unless I'm horribly wrong, the reasoning behind that is that the rule is there to set a skill cap on the tournament. With a substantial cash prize there (plenty of motivation for a progamer to play), it's only natural that an amateur has very little chance against a progamer (especially in Starcraft where the skill gap between progamers and amateurs is so huge). Progamers have plenty of tournaments with their own cash prizes, so this tournament is clearly meant for amateurs. Obviously, the first part of that rule makes it impossible for progamers to snag that prize by hiding their identity and playing on an account that isn't immediately recognized as their own.
Now let's look at the first rule. Why exclude people who grew up in countries with a pro scene? It would seem the exact same reasoning is being applied here, limiting the skill level in the tournament. If this is indeed the reason behind the rule's creation...it's completely pointless to have such a rule in the first place. Where somebody grew up is not the only factor that determines skill, thus making the rule completely pointless. People who grew up in China/Korea and are not progamers exist. People who grew up outside China/Korea and are progamers exist. The point of these rules is to draw the line on how skilled one can be to play in this tournament and not be a clear favourite to destroy everyone and walk away with the money. Regardless of where such a player grew up, they would be living in Korea/China and likely playing on a professional starcraft team, thus breaking the second rule anyways. The first rule has no purpose and shouldn't even be included among the other ones.
Yes, Nongmin still wouldn't qualify under the second rule because he would be living in Korea at the time of the TSL. Idra didn't qualify under that rule last TSL ("6. No Korean IP addresses") yet was allowed to play anyways. Idra didn't qualify under that rule this TSL either, and still is allowed to play. That exception was made on the basis that he is a part of the foreign community, despite moving to Korea to play professionally. That obviously makes sense...just because he is playing Starcraft at a professional level doesn't mean he all of a sudden has become detached from the foreign community. Why is Nongmin not considered a part of the foreign community as well? He plays on ICCUP. He streams games. He regularly chats with Teamliquid forum members (maybe not on the forum itself but on his stream). I would argue that Nongmin is currently more of a part of the foreign community than the korean community.
If playing games of Starcraft and socializing with other members of the foreign community does not make you one of them...what does? Owning a piece of paper that legally qualifies you as a citizen of a country that isn't Korea/China? If someone was born in Korea/China, moved to the US at a young age, and moved between Canada/US every 2 years (thus denying them the possibility of becoming a citizen in either country), would we conclude that he/she is not a member of the exclusive club that is the foreign starcraft community?
The way I see it, regardless whether this is defined to be as an "amateur tournament" or a "foreigner tournament", Nongmin should still be included.
On November 14 2009 17:13 daz wrote: Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments. Seriously when you make the rules like this you make it seem more like racism then enforcing fair play. "Professional gamers are allowed to participate as long as they are not of a certain race." Fucking ridiculous.
Thanks for your valuable contribution. Do both of us a favor and remove yourself from the site ran by racists making fucking ridiculously stupid decisions.
On November 14 2009 17:13 daz wrote: Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments.
On November 15 2009 00:43 maleum wrote: Idra isn't really part of the foreigner community now.
He participates in pretty much all foreign tournaments and posts regularly on TL.
So? It's not like he does it with manner. One has to ask - is it really contributing to the community? I know I hate that prick and couldn't care less about his actions in korea, as long as he stays there he is their problem not ours. I say: Let them have his freckly manners!
On November 15 2009 01:23 maleum wrote: This part makes sense.
It's about the manner in which you do so.
On November 15 2009 01:28 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: So? It's not like he does it with manner. One has to ask - is it really contributing to the community? I know I hate that prick and couldn't care less about his actions in korea, as long as he stays there he is their problem not ours. I say: Let them have his freckly manners!
Ding ding ding. This is where the problem really lays. Most of you hate Idras guts and then argue why he should not be in this. Let me tell you something; I don't like the kid at all. I dislike the way he behaves and represents gamers. He does not treat tournament admins with any sort of respect. However simply disliking him is no reason for people to come in here and argue why he should not be part of TSL. When concerning TSL we are always trying to think about the bigger picture.
But here comes it. Fact of the matter: Idra is a foreigner. By the ideology of which we run TSL - that is a tournament for foreigners - he is part of it.
Why start this topic in the first place? Why produce this silly inconsistent rules when you can just announce what you want in your tourney. I mean i get it: chinese ppl bad, koreans bad, pros even worse, american pro in korea good, korean guy in america good but not while he visit his home country for christmas or whateverrr...
On November 15 2009 01:36 ZlyKiss wrote: Why start this topic in the first place? Why produce this silly inconsistent rules when you can just announce what you want in your tourney. I mean i get it: chinese ppl bad, koreans bad, pros even worse, american pro in korea good, korean guy in america good but not while he visit his home country for christmas or whateverrr...
The rules are perfectly consistent as has been explained before. If you want to open up your tournament to Korean amateurs, Korean progamers, by all means go ahead, but why is it so hard to see that this is not what we want? I don't know how else to explain it. If TSL was meant as a tournament for Koreans it wouldn't even exist right now because we would be competing with national TV channels budgeting hundreds of thousands. At least try to show some understanding for what we are trying to do here.
well, at first when reading the OP post it seemed to me that these rules made no sense and were made specificaly to not allow nongim to play. Actually if you read the responses of the mods in thread it seems much more logical. So I agree that nongmin should no be allowed to play.
I can not agree only with the part of letting idra play. He has been in Korea for very very long time. Trains with pro gamers, and is a pro gamer himself. The comparison between him Nazgul, Rekrul and Leg is not good, because all three of them were long retired when TSL1 was held. Also I dont think that Idra by any means has helped the community. Of course the best way he could have done that is actually winning something in Korea. He hasnt won a single game. Besides this, he is constantly being BM in tourneys and in almost in every single thread in TL. I dont see the way he is helping the community. Remember when Leg and Naz were in Korea? Everybody was cheering for them and they were people who actualy helped the community become what is it now. Idra on the other hand brings only drama and scandals after him. This is not good.
On November 15 2009 01:43 Holgerius wrote: I don't get how you staff people can remain so calm and well-mannered in your responses. Impressive. TSL is in good hands.
We've all been trolled by Hot_Bid so many times that we've become cold, emotionless automatons.
On November 12 2009 11:28 Sorrow wrote: this brings up the question in mind:
why the fuck is idra still allowed to enter, even granted as an exception? what's there to "except" for idra?
i mean, the dude's obviously been immersed in much more progaming scene than any of the other contestants, eligible or ineligible. so why is he still allowed?
On November 12 2009 11:28 bEsT[Alive] wrote: If you are to hold all the players to the same criteria then IdrA, ret and a few others wouldn't allowed to play based on condition number 2. I say let the man play.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene;
Ok so he grew up outside Korea but he is still affiliated with a pro team and he is still in korea, I think nongmin should be allowed to play or idra and ret should not. Just my view.
Here's what I don't get. Nongmin would have been allowed to play if he had stayed in the US for the duration of the tournament.
"He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team".
Looking at the INTENT behind this rule, it's to stop a flood of Amateur Korean players from entering. By Amateur Koreans, I mean players who've had special training from a pro/semi-pro team and are affiliated with them in some way. However, Nongmin is NOT an amateur korean player. That is, he hasn't had any special training. He hasn't practiced with pro-teams. He's not affiliated with any team. So why isn't he allowed to play if we look at this on a case by case basis?
I think based on these rules, if we look at the intent behind them, granting Idra an exception is much more of a stretch BECAUSE he's had special training, and he's been affiliated with a pro-team for over a year now.
I understand the ruling but the second that a non-korean becomes a licensed pro gamer the game should change.
Idra will be able to dominate TSL2 fairly easily this time around.
I think excluding people who are not pro gamers and allowing those who are regardless of which type of criteria you setup makes for a double standard.
Teamliquid shouldn't have a problem saying "we support non-koreans in korea and the non-korean scene(excluding chinese lag)" and keep it that simple.
I agree with alot of people here that the opening post was presented in a way that regardless of your feeling towards nongminzerg (I have no clue who he is) you end up feeling like "fuck don't pussy out just say 'we don't want koreans or chinese in our tournaments' " which for different reasons IS the reality.
yes, I am afraid that letting Idra play is definately a double standart ( a thing tl has never did), and I am afraid that Idra being friend with many of the staff members is in fact the main reason he is in.
I can't understand how people dont see idra as a unfair advantage on the non korean scene.. he has been playing in korea professionaly now for 2 years?? I dont get it
On November 15 2009 06:28 Lz wrote: too me.. im friends with idra and everything
I can't understand how people dont see idra as a unfair advantage on the non korean scene.. he has been playing in korea professionaly now for 2 years?? I dont get it
I agree with this (and I mean Nongmin should be allowed to play, not that IdrA shouldn't be), but Kollsen will beat IdrA anyway. + Show Spoiler +
I agree with alot of people here that the opening post was presented in a way that regardless of your feeling towards nongminzerg (I have no clue who he is) you end up feeling like "fuck don't pussy out just say 'we don't want koreans or chinese in our tournaments' " which for different reasons IS the reality.
This is where I was getting to. I think above all this tournament is to promote FOREIGN players, and any other rule i.e. That the players shouldn't be affiliated with any pro teams come secondary to that. That overrides everything else.
What I don't understand is why teamliquid even needs to explain itself?
If you don't want chinese or koreans then just say that then when you feel like making a special 'exception' for whatever reason you can just say "This is my house and I fucking want too" which is how teamliquid always has been rather then trying to justify this and that which in the end will only make people realize the truth which is "This is our fucking house and we choose".
On November 15 2009 06:28 Lz wrote: too me.. im friends with idra and everything
I can't understand how people dont see idra as a unfair advantage on the non korean scene.. he has been playing in korea professionaly now for 2 years?? I dont get it
apparently being a progamer is acceptable if you aren't of the wrong race USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
On November 15 2009 07:03 AttackZerg wrote: What I don't understand is why teamliquid even needs to explain itself?
If you don't want chinese or koreans then just say that then when you feel like making a special 'exception' for whatever reason you can just say "This is my house and I fucking want too" which is how teamliquid always has been rather then trying to justify this and that which in the end will only make people realize the truth which is "This is our fucking house and we choose".
You guys aren't going soft are you?
When you're going to run a tournament with a sponsor providing 23 000 dollars in price money I think it's quite appropritate to be as professional as possible.
On November 14 2009 17:13 daz wrote: Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments. Seriously when you make the rules like this you make it seem more like racism then enforcing fair play. "Professional gamers are allowed to participate as long as they are not of a certain race." Fucking ridiculous.
Thanks for your valuable contribution. Do both of us a favor and remove yourself from the site ran by racists making fucking ridiculously stupid decisions.
I love the site I just hate that decision you made, and it's not only you guys its everyone else who runs foreigner tournaments and still lets Idra play. Obviously I don't think you guys are really racists but it's almost like you're going out of your way to make it appear that you are.
On November 15 2009 07:03 AttackZerg wrote: What I don't understand is why teamliquid even needs to explain itself?
If you don't want chinese or koreans then just say that then when you feel like making a special 'exception' for whatever reason you can just say "This is my house and I fucking want too" which is how teamliquid always has been rather then trying to justify this and that which in the end will only make people realize the truth which is "This is our fucking house and we choose".
You guys aren't going soft are you?
When you're going to run a tournament with a sponsor providing 23 000 dollars in price money I think it's quite appropritate to be as professional as possible.
Yet allowing IdrA, a person with affiliations to a pro team and someone who moved to korea to play professionally, and not letting someone who was born there but never had anything to do with a pro team and also moved out of korea is professional...
On November 15 2009 07:03 AttackZerg wrote: What I don't understand is why teamliquid even needs to explain itself?
If you don't want chinese or koreans then just say that then when you feel like making a special 'exception' for whatever reason you can just say "This is my house and I fucking want too" which is how teamliquid always has been rather then trying to justify this and that which in the end will only make people realize the truth which is "This is our fucking house and we choose".
You guys aren't going soft are you?
When you're going to run a tournament with a sponsor providing 23 000 dollars in price money I think it's quite appropritate to be as professional as possible.
I think this rule is ridiculous tbh. It raises alot of questions about the definition of exactly what growing up in a location with a professional Starcraft scene does for you. I mean, since years back foreigners have played with koreans on battle.net, we have been able to view vod:s and replays for a long time now and the only difference koreans (the ones on pro-teams mind you) is that they train and talk strategy together with people who also are awesome at Starcraft.
If I would have grown up in England it wouldn't make me David Beckham if we talk soccer.
I would agree with this rule IF he was affiliated with a pro-team. And hell, Idra is playing on a pro-team and so is ret.
What this boils down to imo is just a totally unnecessary and not very constructive way of creating more division between something so arbitrary like different countries. The way I see it, this issue is not too far from prejudice and racism. I know it's not intentional and you don't mean it like that, but I have a hard time understanding how you can accept Idra and not nongmin.
And what exactly is the reasoning behind him not being able to play just because he goes to korea during TSL?
There is no point at all in expanding the korea/foreigner division, at all.
On November 15 2009 08:26 Foucault wrote: There is no point at all in expanding the korea/foreigner division, at all.
If Koll and company have the honor to play vs pro SC'ers why not play against Nongmin? Idra, ret, rekrul, artosis, live in korea and i'm sure they have the opportunity to participate. They can play the pc bangs and have the same resources as nongmin, even more so Idra has the convenience of LIVING in a pro house. So why the exclusion? It's too easy.
On November 12 2009 18:50 illu wrote:You seem to be claiming that this tournament gives foreigner players the [best possible??] motivation to excel their gameplay. But this contradicts with accepting idra into the tournament already - because he should be trying to get into the A-team right now; but winning this tournament will NOT bring him one-step closer to the A-team
And it is possible, although not definite, that winning the prize money will diminish his motivation in Korea.
Seriously, if Idra would win TSL2 (and a huge load of cash) and BM his way through the tournament insulting players left and right, it would be a disgrace for e-sports.
There needs to be some rules regarding manner, there are in every sports.
I somewhat agree with people that say that Idra should not be allowed to participate. He has been give then chance in korea for the past 2 years to prove himself, he has won several other tours easily. He becomes a foregin player that takes home all the cash in every tour cuz of his 2 years in korea. Whats the point of this tour if its so obviously going to Idra or atleast Idra has a clear advantage due to his practice time in Korea. Would he been allowed to participate IF he had had more success in korea the past year? Propably not? is it only because he has not had any luck in korean events or the team that he is allowed??
So you don't allow Nongmin to play in the TSL since he is living in Korea and is an amateur player. But you allow Idra, who is living in Korea and is a Pro-Player to play.
On November 15 2009 11:38 Doso wrote: So you don't allow Nongmin to play in the TSL since he is living in Korea and is grew up in a progaming country. But you allow Idra, who is living in Korea and did not grow up in a progaming country.
Doesn't feel right that Nongmin isn't allowed to participate because he is a member of this community. I understand that this is a primarily foreigner only tournament, but still... it's not like he is living in a progaming house.
I mean, if he lived in a progaming house and got paid to practice I could understand, but he plays for the love of the game just like any other foreigner.
Just read the whole thread, wanted to thank the TL staff for being patient and reasonable in the face of adversity over an obviously difficult decision. I usually despise authority because I don't find those in authority respectable, but I suppose because TL staff have so little authority to abuse for personal gain (lol it's just a forum) you guys handle it pretty well. Kudos.
If Idra was Korean (assuming he was still born in US, then moved to Korea to be on eStro/CJ) he'd still be allowed to play. If Nongmin was a white guy born in Korea and then came to US for a few years and then moved back to Korea during TSL, he'd still be not allowed to play.
I understand the rule to avoid all korean amateurs players to get in TSL, but i dont get why u just treat nongmin like every other korean amateur when he is definitly a part of TL comunity.
On November 12 2009 11:48 Jonoman92 wrote: God people are so retarded at reading sometimes...
I think it is somewhat unfair that IdrA, who has been a member of a progaming team for some months now is being allowed to play while Nongmin, who has never been on a pro team, isn't. I mean, it's clear that IdrA has an advantage over every other participant.
Also just curious, if some "pro" Chinese player like PJ could play without lag would they be allowed? Or is China's scene considered pro. I assume you are considering China to have a proscene otherwise you may as well have saved some characters and written Korea.
I hate those slanty eyed people as much as the next person does, but these rules seem a bit biased. It's like you went out of your way to look for a way to exclude nongminzerg, while granting exceptions for all the 'veteran' foreigners and allowing them to play.
can't an exception be made for nongmin? if he has a static IP in Korea and continues to stream games, then couldn't his identity be verified? nongmin being a special exception, much like Idra and ret, would stop the flood of amateur Koreans flooding in.
This is unfortunate. Allowing Nongmin to play would make the tournament better, and it is a shame to see him excluded. It is quite evident that a lot of people feel this way. I'm not in the habit of speaking for others, but I'm getting the impression that everyone would like to see him play except some of the competitors with a realistic shot at winning the tournament. The motives of these few elite competitors should be obvious, and while they are understandable, they do not consider the quality of the tournament, which is the most important thing.
I can understand that once rules are set in place, whimsically disregarding them for 'special cases' only leads to trouble. The rules are objective and open to little interpretation, but what I think most people in this thread have a problem with is how blatantly subjectively the rules were created. The second rule was created to let people like Idra and Ret and Rekrul play, which is fine, because just saying 'no Korea, no China, everyone else a-ok!' would exclude some worthy competitors who are foreigners by most people's standards. Good! I want to see those guys play. Why can't a rule be tinkered with a bit to let Nongmin into the mix? That way there wouldn't have to be a special exception because it would be a rule. "If you moved to a country with a pro-scene within 3 months of the start of TSL, you are eligible to play" "If you are Nonmingzerg, you are eligible to play" I don't know what it would be, but I'm sure there's one out there. It's just so frustrating that Nonming has less of an advantage than someone like Idra, but isn't popular enough, so he doesn't get a rule made for him. Everyone wants to see him play, the tournament would be better.....arrrrrrg! This whole situation is like the chicken salad sandwich scene in Five Easy Pieces.
On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote: idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene.
On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote: idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene
We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
haha, I'm not being dragged into this thread argument any further man, I just put in my two sense. I'm not sure why everyone is intent on arguing anyway, the rules they are using are very clear here and every single page is the TL staff literally re-iterating the rules... so they obviously aren't going to change.
On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote: idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene
We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
Yeah but foreigners play with koreans on b.net all the time, and there are a million replays out there of good korean players for everyone to study. People have LAN:s in pretty much every country and there are quite a few foreign tournaments too.
I'm just saying that I have a hard time seeing the Korean advantage you speak of unless a person is affiliated with a pro-team in any way. We see the vods of the games they see on TV, every single game. It's too weird to rule out an entire country just because it happens to have a large following of the specific "sport". My Beckham analogy comes to mind again
What positive effects exactly does growing up in a progaming environment have in your opinion? I'm talking about people not being affiliated with pro-teams in any way now.
Adversity? Apparently Estro loved Nony, I have no idea about Ret or Idras teammates. Yeah, it's a different culture and the foreign players have CHOSEN to go to Korea because they love playing Starcraft. No one is forcing them so don't make them into martyrs. Did people hate on Elky and Grrr, Rekrul, Legionnaire and Assem? Not to my knowledge, if anything they got an advantage by being foreigners because they stood out.
If you are sociable and nice to people, I can't see you having a problem in Korea unless you of course for some reason refuse to learn the quite simple korean language. Then it's your problem
Yeah but foreigners play with koreans on b.net all the time, and there are a million replays out there of good korean players for everyone to study. People have LAN:s in pretty much every country and there are quite a few foreign tournaments too.
I'm just saying that I have a hard time seeing the Korean advantage you speak of unless a person is affiliated with a pro-team in any way. We see the vods of the games they see on TV, every single game. It's too weird to rule out an entire country just because it happens to have a large following of the specific "sport". My Beckham analogy comes to mind again
What positive effects exactly does growing up in a progaming environment have in your opinion? I'm talking about people not being affiliated with pro-teams in any way now.
Adversity? Apparently Estro loved Nony, I have no idea about Ret or Idras teammates. Yeah, it's a different culture and the foreign players have CHOSEN to go to Korea because they love playing Starcraft. No one is forcing them so don't make them into martyrs. Did people hate on Elky and Grrr, Rekrul, Legionnaire and Assem? Not to my knowledge, if anything they got an advantage by being foreigners because they stood out.
If you are sociable and nice to people, I can't see you having a problem in Korea unless you of course for some reason refuse to learn the quite simple korean language. Then it's your problem
Uh, the advantage is that it's much more accepted by social surroundings if u spend a lot of time practicing sc. The general skill level is much higher so it's much easier to find better opponents, people talk about the game all the time without being looked at as total nerds since it's on tv all the time. The ability to understand korean language gives access to a ton of additional information. Just studying a replay is not enough, if you have other people in the replay talking about it ( of high skill lvl ofc) the discussion is much more useful. Again this is much easier to achieve since there are so many higher skilled players and clans. There are also more tournaments on and offline.
I'd say those are pretty big advantages.
And about the korean language being simple, this has to be a joke right? Learning spanish for an italian or english for a german is not that difficult because they are very similiar. Korean is something totally different and thus very hard and time consuming to pick up. Given a 12 hour training schedule they just don't have enough time to take many lessons.
On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote: idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene
We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
Don't you consider nongmin coming to the states at such a young age and for (four?) a few years a forgeiner handicap? I do.
I don't understand why it makes any difference where Nongmin currently resides. If Nongmin where in the United States now, he could play right, but since he's in Korea he can't right. But the Nongmin in korea isn't any different from the Nongmin who was in the USA, hes still at the same level of skill. Can someone explain to me why he's being barred from playing; I understand those are the rules but nothings changed. He hasn't gained any advantage by moving to Korea; he's still the same 4 years of training in America isn't he; nothings changed but his ip location. I just don't get it
So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote: So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
Watch this i can do the same thing.
Idra, the guy who has dedicated years to the foreign scene, and given exciting matches and thousands of replays to the community. On top of his dry humor which has given us hundreds of pages of threads to talk about, he was a great guest on TL Attack and gave games to community members before going to korea.
Or a guy who lived in korea most of his life and joined TL 3 months ago.
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote: So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
It's not about rewarding certain players though, it's about having a valid ruleset that works out well for all parties.
On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote: idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene
We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
I guess "facing adversity" nullifies all the advantages a player gets from being on a pro team and playing against other pro gamers all day, as your job for a significant amount of time.
Adversity? Try growing up in Compton: playing SC while your house is getting shot up is nothing to sneeze at. Escaping the dangers of the city and being molded into an internet tough guy is something that shall be celebrated, as he beat all the odds.
Well, at least that's the image that is conjured up in my head.
Edit: made an assumption, after reading more of the thread seems there are alot of people who agree with the descision so removed "presence would be widely welcomed by almost everyone"
On November 16 2009 11:16 XeliN wrote: This seems a strange descision as there seems no doubt that Nongmins presence would make the tournament more exciting.
Location seems to be the deciding factor in deciding whether or not he should be allowed to play, and it seems on the surface a fairly arbitrary one.
Edit: made an assumption, after reading more of the thread seems there are alot of people who agree with the descision so removed "presence would be widely welcomed by almost everyone"
Location in this case is important because of the atmosphere difference between Korea and other parts of the world.
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote: So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
Watch this i can do the same thing.
Idra, the guy who has dedicated years to the foreign scene, and given exciting matches and thousands of replays to the community. On top of his dry humor which has given us hundreds of pages of threads to talk about, he was a great guest on TL Attack and gave games to community members before going to korea.
Or a guy who lived in korea most of his life and joined TL 3 months ago.
Pretty cool technique amirite?
Ah, what a perfect summation of what this argument boils down to...
The majority of the TL posters feel Nong should be allowed to participate in this tournament.
The majority (Hell, could be unanimous) of the people in charge feel that Nong should not be allowed to participate in this tournament.
Rules are rules, though, and if an exception is made for Nong then why not for others? In the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. This ain't no damn democracy, boy! The Ten Commandments sayeth so.
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote: So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
Watch this i can do the same thing.
Idra, the guy who has dedicated years to the foreign scene, and given exciting matches and thousands of replays to the community. On top of his dry humor which has given us hundreds of pages of threads to talk about, he was a great guest on TL Attack and gave games to community members before going to korea.
Or a guy who lived in korea most of his life and joined TL 3 months ago.
Pretty cool technique amirite?
Ah, what a perfect summation of what this argument boils down to...
The majority of the TL posters feel Nong should be allowed to participate in this tournament.
The majority (Hell, could be unanimous) of the people in charge feel that Nong should not be allowed to participate in this tournament.
Rules are rules, though, and if an exception is made for Nong then why not for others? In the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. This ain't no damn democracy, boy! The Ten Commandments sayeth so.
That isn't what the argument boils down to - i was being facetious to illustrate how stupid this argument about "idra is bad manner, nongmin is nice boy" is.
If by majority you mean the same 30-40 vocalists out of 40,000 users then sure. People who don't give a shit obviously don't post, and people who support the decision and know that it wont change don't post either.....
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote: So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
Watch this i can do the same thing.
Idra, the guy who has dedicated years to the foreign scene, and given exciting matches and thousands of replays to the community. On top of his dry humor which has given us hundreds of pages of threads to talk about, he was a great guest on TL Attack and gave games to community members before going to korea.
Or a guy who lived in korea most of his life and joined TL 3 months ago.
Pretty cool technique amirite?
Ah, what a perfect summation of what this argument boils down to...
The majority of the TL posters feel Nong should be allowed to participate in this tournament.
The majority (Hell, could be unanimous) of the people in charge feel that Nong should not be allowed to participate in this tournament.
Rules are rules, though, and if an exception is made for Nong then why not for others? In the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. This ain't no damn democracy, boy! The Ten Commandments sayeth so.
On November 16 2009 12:20 Kennigit wrote: That isn't what the argument boils down to - i was being facetious to illustrate how stupid this argument about "idra is bad manner, nongmin is nice boy" is.
If by majority you mean the same 30-40 vocalists out of 40,000 users then sure. People who don't give a shit obviously don't post, and people who support the decision and know that it wont change don't post either.....
But yes you are correct, the decision is final.
I don't see why you should take into consideration the people that don't give a shit, as they obviously don't give a shit as to what happens therefore their opinion shouldn't count because they don't have an opinion.
@Jalstar: The exceptions are white, and thus are allowed as we have inferior Brood war genes. It's kind of like the special olympics - you can't have Usain Bolt participate in the special Olympics as he isn't retarded and would obviously win everything. Nongmin, being Korean, has the genetic advantage of er, being Korean.
this just makes this "foreign" scene seem so pathetic they play on such a low skill level and are so afraid to let anyone who can play well in their tournament.
everybody should stop caring about playing with other bad players. if you guys love broodwar and starcraft so much, then actually put in some time and become some of the best, instead of being bad and wanting to play with bad players.
The past few pages I have seen guys insult and argue because we don't allow Koreans.
Let me make something very clear. Viewers would not tune in to see 14 Korean top amateurs battle it out. Germans don't tune in if Mondragon doesn't play. Polish don't tune in if Draco is out. Chinese don't watch unless Chinese are playing. Sponsors would not be found and TSL would be gone. That is what you are asking for.
A tournament for the foreign scene for both viewers and players is what we are trying to do here. To argue against this is to argue TSL should not exist. If that is your view of the situation I would kindly request you to not post here at all because there are thousands of others who do want to enjoy this.
Wow did this thread seriously go from discussing the exclusion of Nongming to arguing about the exclusion of Korean amateurs?
I can understand people wanting to see Nongming play based on the argument that theoretically he is part of the foreign community more so than the korean one(I don't have enough information on Nongmin to have an opinion on that). But the other Korean amateurs? Can't you see that allowing them would completley defy the purpose of supporting and developing the foreigner scene. Foreigners right now can't compete with the Korean amateurs because of the social surroundings and support for professional gaming. It has nothing to do with genes or anything. For example look at the USA in soccer, they sucked at it despite being such a huge nation being among the top in every sport the general populace has an interest in. Smaller media attention and/or public interest obviously leads to a smaller player base, a lower skill level and slower development of any kind of professional scene.
On November 16 2009 10:36 domane wrote: How are the administrators going to know, if a TSL participant living outside of Korea, wasn't raised in Korea?
Yeah they won't because that rule is way too vague.
I'll just say that the argument that the people complaining are a vocal minority would be acceptable if you had some semblance of agreement being posted.
I've read the entire thread and the responses are overwhelmingly in support of nongmin playing or people saying I'd like to see him play, but I can see why you guys are making the decision and I'll go along with it.
There is no vocal opposition.
Saying that the vocal opposition to the nongmin supporters are just content to sit back because they don't see a point in posting is hilarious. When has any vocal radical group ever said, "Oh, wow. That guy already made my point for me! I no longer need to post my opinion because it's already been covered!" ... hilarious. If there was a strong group of people who really hated the idea of korean amateurs playing in their tournament they would say so.
On November 16 2009 22:45 AwarE-- wrote: If there was a strong group of people who really hated the idea of korean amateurs playing in their tournament they would say so.
That's because people think this thread is about Nongming. If this thread was about allowing Korean amateurs as a whole to take part in the TSL i have no doubt there would be a strong vocal opposition. I for once would feel strongly against that. One of the goals of this starleague is after all to support foreign E-sports. I fail to see the point of opening this to korean amateurs making it a second rate starleague since if it's just about the quality of the games, there are already the OSL and the MSL with the best players duking it out. The special thing about the TSL is after all that it's for players of countries without a professional scene.
On November 16 2009 22:45 AwarE-- wrote: If there was a strong group of people who really hated the idea of korean amateurs playing in their tournament they would say so.
That's because people think this thread is about Nongming. If this thread was about allowing Korean amateurs as a whole to take part in the TSL i have no doubt there would be a strong vocal opposition. I for once would feel strongly against that. One of the goals of this starleague is after all to support foreign E-sports. I fail to see the point of opening this to korean amateurs making it a second rate starleague since if it's just about the quality of the games, there are already the OSL and the MSL with the best players duking it out. The special thing about the TSL is after all that it's for players of countries without a professional scene.
You haven't read the thread. nongmin moved here for highschool, he moved back to korea but i believe its only a short visit. Anyways, the exception wasn't to be for amateur koreans but for nongmin. Just like its not for professional gamers but for idra.
You haven't read the thread. nongmin moved here for highschool, he moved back to korea but i believe its only a short visit. Anyways, the exception wasn't to be for amateur koreans but for nongmin. Just like its not for professional gamers but for idra.
I did read the thread. As stated above I'm not talking about Nongmin. I can see people making the point that he should be considered a member of the foreign community. I was talking to people talking about the korean amateurs as a whole.
On November 16 2009 23:12 AwarE-- wrote: But the point is that this thread -is- about him. There is no vocal opposition to him playing in the tournament. Prove me wrong.
Way to spin your senseless argument of allowing all Korean amateurs. Your prove me wrong attitude with a grand total of 9 posts and register date a few months ago is seriously misplaced. There is no need for a superiority complex when we have shown nothing but patience and will to explain ourselves over and over.
No matter how unfortunate it may be in this situation, not all our decisions are made through a community vote. You have to wonder how many people arguing here have given a single thought to the fact TSL is watched by a majority of people who rarely visit teamliquid that will not understand why someone in direct violation of the rules is allowed to play based on 12 posts and 3 months of livestream. We have explained why TSL rules are what they are, and explained why we feel exception will not be granted.
My point is simply that instead of sticking to their guns, a lot of moderators and admins have been purporting that arguments against the ruling are invalid simply because they're a "vocal minority" and such.
I was just pointing out the fallacy in that argument.
Okay, since it appears that people are arguing that there is a lack of vocal disagreement with the "consensus" then I will oblige.
I don't want Nongmin in the tournament. This is a foreigner tournament and whatever you say otherwise he's still korean. We need more foreigner centered events and he just hasn't done enough to "become" a foreigner yet, he's still on the line. The end.
And actually for my part Kennigit is right, I wasn't posting because the decision was final and I supported it 100%. But since people are going to claim that it should be majority rule here I decided I would offer my voice lolol. Also, I don't dislike Nongmin, and in fact I wouldn't be opposed to him being in TSL3, but it's too soon.
Additionally, I want to applaud the patience of the moderators and administrators.
On November 16 2009 22:45 AwarE-- wrote: If there was a strong group of people who really hated the idea of korean amateurs playing in their tournament they would say so.
This is a completely illogical argument -- just because people come out and say "I agree with the rule" that doesn't mean they agree with the opposite of the rule. I don't see a large number of people saying we shouldn't allow Bisu, so does that mean we should allow him? I don't see a large number of people saying "I support anti-hack!" so should we allow hacking?
As Nazgul said, part of TSL's appeal is exactly that it's different than Korean tournaments. If we were to become a mini-online courage, we'd lose viewers, sponsors, and the tournament itself.
Also, I do not think the "consensus" and "majority" arguing for Nongmin to play is as strong as you believe. Not at all.
On November 17 2009 00:36 AwarE-- wrote: My point is simply that instead of sticking to their guns, a lot of moderators and admins have been purporting that arguments against the ruling are invalid simply because they're a "vocal minority" and such.
I was just pointing out the fallacy in that argument.
Except this argument is true. If you read this thread it would seem like the vast majority of people would want Nongmin to play. That's just the "feeling" you get from reading this thread. But in fact, its just a lot of the same people getting mad, whereas people who agree just post one post.
I went through and actually counted the responses of people, trying not to double-count users who posted more than once. It's not 100% accurate, but give or take a few counting errors, here is how it came out:
47 people said that they agree with the decision, or feel sad that he can't play but still agree or understand. 58 people said that Nongmin should be allowed / an exception should be made / disagree with the decision.
58 to 47. And significant portion of the people posting are greatly misunderstanding what's going on, making accusations like "TL is racist!" or "They just want Idra to win!" or "They just don't want Nongmin to play!"
TSL has thousands of players and even more viewers. Are you saying the 11 person margin (58-47) people who posted to protest this rule speak for the "majority" of our community? That we should just ignore what we feel is best for keeping our tournament alive and popular because of an 11-person margin of posters in a single thread, when there are considerations of thousands of viewers and players?
I'm not saying it should be overturned. I actually believe if the tournament organizers decide to disallow people with the name Chris, no amount of outrage by the community could change the decision, because it's a sponsored money tournament, not a community organized event.
I'll give a similar situation to exemplify my point. In arms negotiations, the groups seeking to ban certain weapons constantly engage the United States and other military superpowers on the effectiveness of their weapons, challenging the effectiveness and sanctioned use of them.
They are often wrong in their arguments, or jump to conclusions because they have a pre-determined stance. They could just simply say, "People are dying. The decision is easy." Instead they argue this complicated military point that is not easily made convincing.
I'm saying you're incorrect in trying to combat the viewpoint of the community or whoever they may be here (vocal minority, whatever) by invalidating their argument by saying it's a vocal minority and they're incorrect.
Just say it's your decision and stick to it, should've made this thread locked to begin with. Arguing about it just extends the babble.
On November 17 2009 01:29 AwarE-- wrote: The point. You're missing it.
Please don't condescend to me, especially when you're completely incorrect. You are lucky I don't listen to your advice because if I did, you would be banned and I wouldn't be responding to the rest of your post.
I'm not saying it should be overturned. I actually believe if the tournament organizers decide to disallow people with the name Chris, no amount of outrage by the community could change the decision, because it's a sponsored money tournament, not a community organized event.
This is an absolutely retarded way to attract viewers to a tournament. TL's biggest strength is its community reputation. Are you saying we should just make decisions and never explain them, even if they are arbitrary and stupid (the Chris rule for example)? If we do what you suggest, that is effectively throwing away what we are building here with TeamLiquid. In fact, there are several posters who thanked us for a) keeping the thread open and b) being patient and understanding with explaining / refuting arguments. A lot of those people disagreed with us but still understood our reasoning and respected the way we went about it.
I'll give a similar situation to exemplify my point. In arms negotiations, the groups seeking to ban certain weapons constantly engage the United States and other military superpowers on the effectiveness of their weapons, challenging the effectiveness and sanctioned use of them.
They are often wrong in their arguments, or jump to conclusions because they have a pre-determined stance. They could just simply say, "People are dying. The decision is easy." Instead they argue this complicated military point that is not easily made convincing.
I'm saying you're incorrect in trying to combat the viewpoint of the community or whoever they may be here (vocal minority, whatever) by invalidating their argument by saying it's a vocal minority and they're incorrect.
Just say it's your decision and stick to it, should've made this thread locked to begin with. Arguing about it just extends the babble.
I'm sure you'd make a great communist dictator, but that's not how things work around here. I'm glad you aren't the leader or manager of anything because your viewers / community / employees would certainly hate this way of doing things.
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team;
I really expected a fair and clear use of rules.
-------------------------------------------------- User was warned for this post: Keep your troll posts inspired by your reoccurring hate for Idra out of TSL topics.
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team;
I really expected a fair and clear use of rules.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER: He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team Do you know what OR means? Its obvious that the rules would not be designed to keep idra out.
ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =(
Sigh... if people just took some time to read the thread instead of jumping into conclusions and posting, we wouldn't need people repeating the same arguments over and over...
On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote: ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =(
You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra
On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote: ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =(
You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra
Yeah there is obviously a big relationship, but when did he ever stream (I might have missed it), share replays, blog about his Korea experience etc? I'm fine with Idra generally speaking, as long as he keeps his temper out of in-game chat. No one ever died of some well placed e-drama.
Anyways, of course there can be exceptions to rules but what matters is what they are based on. The relationship between TL and the rest of the foreign community is not so clearly defined in terms of who is "part of the foreign community". Some countries have big Starcraft sites of their own which might be more central for them than TL. Do we consider all foreigners part of the foreign community regardless of their TL presence?
Would another notable foreigner who isn't even registered/hardly ever is on TL (hypothetically let's say Brat_ok or anyone, doesn't matter), and atm residing in Korea playing with good koreans also be an exception to the rule? Where would you draw this hypothetical line? Just curious
On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote: ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =(
You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra
Yeah there is obviously a big relationship, but when did he ever stream (I might have missed it), share replays, blog about his Korea experience etc? I'm fine with Idra generally speaking, as long as he keeps his temper out of in-game chat. No one ever died of some well placed e-drama.
Anyways, of course there can be exceptions to rules but what matters is what they are based on. The relationship between TL and the rest of the foreign community is not so clearly defined in terms of who is "part of the foreign community". Some countries have big Starcraft sites of their own which might be more central for them than TL. Do we consider all foreigners part of the foreign community regardless of their TL presence?
Would another notable foreigner who isn't even registered/hardly ever is on TL (hypothetically let's say Brat_ok or anyone, doesn't matter), and atm residing in Korea playing with good koreans also be an exception to the rule? Where would you draw this hypothetical line? Just curious
I think Plexa means that our relationship with Idra isn't exactly one of happy friendship, and while we support his inclusion in TSL and his efforts in Korea, there's no way we're even remotely "good friends" enough with him to give him preferential treatment.
That said, we don't give preferential treatment to anyone no matter how close we are with them. TSL is a very big deal to staff and to the credibility of this site. There is a lot on the line here, for our site, future TSLs/sponsorships, and our place in the community for SC2. It's ridiculous to suggest that we'd risk so much just to give someone a bit of an advantage in a tournament. We don't care who wins, as long as the tournament is a success and enjoyable for the community.
I love how people keep bringing up the argument that the TL.staff is somehow friends with Idra while that is absolutely not the case except for maybe a select few.
The problem with the staff just being nice and letting him play is that there is a real possibility he could win or knock somebody else out. In that case the question must be asked why is he playing even though he has a korean ip? Why was an exemption made? The argument for exempting the others mentioned is that they worked their way up through the foreign scene, tournaments, etc, and they are well-known in the community.
Whereas nong hasn't really worked his way up in the foreign scene. He speaks Korean and is going to be playing in Korean tournaments, he is essentially an amateur gosu. He will be living in Korea for an extended period of time. It becomes more difficult to exempt him and differentiate him from the many other Korean amateur gosus, who, if allowed to play, would dominate the tournament.
If he complied with the rules (was living in the US) there would be no issue.
I don't even understand why lilsusie isn't allowed to play in the TSL. She is a HUGE contributor to the foreign community and just because of her birthplace and exposure to the Starcraft scene makes her ineligible? That's total bullshit. It's not like being born in Brazil makes you automatically better at soccer. You may have certain advantages but when it comes down to it, the success and skill you achieve in Starcraft is all about practice and preserverence.
User temp banned for this comment
I also disagree with your decision but your tournament, your rules. TSL2 would`ve been better with him being allowed to play but I do understand your reasoning. However, I will go to say that it would be pretty easy to give him an exception just because he would be in Korea at the time of the tournament.
issnt competition for people to play and enjoy.By enforcing such rules.. its like discrimination against the koreans.
I dont get this: A player is eligible to play in the TSL if: * He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR * He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team; AND
Well, the fact that the admins have made this topic imo means that they want to hear the feedback from the community.
As I mentioned before, the descision to not let nongmin play is absolutely correct, becouse noone can deny that he is considered more like korean amateur, rather than one of the best foreign players. One of the things that will lead if he was included is that the tourney would have been much less interesting, becouse of the apparent skill gap between him and most of the non-kor players.
The thing that really I dont like is letting Idra play. If we even put aside that he is in fact in Korea and a pro-gamer, the skill gap between him and the rest of the non-kor players is in the same as nongrinms. This will lead to much less exciting tournament imo (as he`ll be a huuuuge favourite to win it). If you take him and nongmin out of this tournament, I think that noone can point a huge favourite to win it. Unpredicatbility is one of the thing that makes a tourney more interesting.
But after all I cant recall a single time tl.net has made wrong descision about anything, so I guess this time will be no exception and I`m pretty sure with or without Idra TSL2 will be kick ass.
I know and have dealt with Nongmin and have been on TL for a long time. I agree with the staff decision. I think it's perfectly fine if he was an active part of the foreign community, but he isn't. He had an opportunity to do so, I invited him and he joined my team (and was seemingly very interested in participating in leagues and stuff), but then shied away from it.
If Nongmin didn't stream, nobody would ever have known who he is. He'd just be another random USA flagged Korean with A rank that people post about in the Who's Who Thread.
Nongmin doesn't participate in foreign events. He's not really in a team. He doesn't actually post on TL He rarely interacts even with the people on his stream (aside from typing "gg" when he's done, and SOMETIMES making a random comment or two)
So, for all intensive purposes, he really isn't a foreigner, although he has had chances to integrate himself into the foreign community and not wanted to do so. He is a Korean, and I think also the fact that he moved back to Korea sort of indicates that he's really only in this country for education and not really to live. In that sense, he can't really be considered a foreigner.
While I agree allowing him to play would make the tournament more interesting, it goes against the very purpose of what TL is trying to achieve. And I also disagree with the manner argument. He's a nice kid, but in my personal experience I can't say his manner is exemplary. And anyways, manner has nothing to do with this O_O;.
On November 17 2009 23:57 Scorcher2k wrote: I'm really not posting this to start drama and I'm actually just curious but will Kollsen not be participating in the TSL?
Lol, no fucking way should idra be in tsl2. He's a progamer!
Hey, lets bring the Bulls into the NCAA - I mean, all their players used to be college players and they all have connections still to the college bball community... besides, they're not a 'top' NBA team anyway.
On November 18 2009 13:39 TimmyMac wrote: Lol, no fucking way should idra be in tsl2. He's a progamer!
Hey, lets bring the Bulls into the NCAA - I mean, all their players used to be college players and they all have connections still to the college bball community... besides, they're not a 'top' NBA team anyway.
Don't really care about the other dude.
Your analogy doesn't work because TSL is not an amateur tournament -- its a foreigner tournament.
I've been following this thread since the beginning and here is my opinion.
What I find debatable in these rules are especially in two terms: 2a "He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene OR" 2b "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team"
Rule 2a basically lets foreign pro-gamers like Idra and Ret play this tournament. If you strictly follow rule 2a, Idra and Ret are eligible to play TSL. So there is no controversial decision, bending the rule, nor exemption applies here. It is therefore totally unnecessary for the TSL Staffs to open the can of worm about Idra's contribution to the community here.
Rule 2b: some people didn't read rule 2a carefully and thus became angry about why Idra & Ret can play even though they are in Korea and in Proteam. These people should read Rule2a again and with the big OR after it. In this case, rule 2b basically blocks Nongming from playing TSL as he doesn't fit in Rule 2a and the rest of the Korean gamers who are in Korea during the TSL.
However, if an A, A+ Korean amateur wants to ruin the "foreign-only" characteristic of this tournament, he can just travel to another country that has good internet connection (Rule 1), slips through Rule 2b and steam-rolls the rest our foreign participants. The term "currently resides" in Rule 2b is defined very loosely (is 30-day tourist visa can be considered as "currently reside"?).
I don't disagree with the decision of the TSL admins, but I really hope they take it on board that the set of rules they set out in the opening post does have some problems, as reflected by a 50/50 rate of support/against (check Hot_bid post in page 22) and a lot of misunderstanding/trolling posts in this thread. I hope mine is not one of them :-/.
Funny how a thread about player eligibility only focuses and is made to only focus on idra/nongmin/ret and doesnt even talk about hackers and ex-hackers and abusers that can play TSL or recovered etc + and abuse policy
not including nongmin is a good thing, no foreigner can take him out period, Idra may be able to beat him in a bo3 but I dont think he can take him in a bo5
I don't understand how so many people can misunderstand two so simple (and logic) rules. One can hope though that by the time of TSL3 or 4 the best foreigners will be abel to compete with the best Korean amateurs...
TL does this in a very professional maner imo, good work.
On November 17 2009 23:57 Scorcher2k wrote: I'm really not posting this to start drama and I'm actually just curious but will Kollsen not be participating in the TSL?
Why wouldn't he be?
I don't know. I just figured that I would have heard someone say something about him in this thread if he was competing and I haven't seen a list of competitors (I might just be dumb in this regard) to see if he was. If he is competing, then I'm not sure why people are complaining about Idra and Ret competing when Koll just 2-0 Idra in WSG...
On November 18 2009 13:39 TimmyMac wrote: Lol, no fucking way should idra be in tsl2. He's a progamer!
Hey, lets bring the Bulls into the NCAA - I mean, all their players used to be college players and they all have connections still to the college bball community... besides, they're not a 'top' NBA team anyway.
Don't really care about the other dude.
Your analogy doesn't work because TSL is not an amateur tournament -- its a foreigner tournament.
Semantics, really. 'Foreign' = not where the pro scene is.
Mhm... look, I just find it ridiculous that blatant ringers are allowed in. Now maybe it would be different if idra moved to Korea recently, but he's been there for a long time, training with pros every day. Doesn't seem in the spirit of the tournament at all to me, even if he probably won't win.
On November 18 2009 17:34 samachking wrote: Funny how a thread about player eligibility only focuses and is made to only focus on idra/nongmin/ret and doesnt even talk about hackers and ex-hackers and abusers that can play TSL or recovered etc + and abuse policy
not including nongmin is a good thing, no foreigner can take him out period, Idra may be able to beat him in a bo3 but I dont think he can take him in a bo5
Ok so basically it's about skill level. We don't want overly good players come in and own the tournament and that is why the koreans aren't allowed to play. While koreans that aren't pro's or very good amateurs could be allowed there's a practical problem because in reality we don't know exactly how good some of them are or if they are sharing accounts (this has happened before). So I get that aspect of the rules for practical reasons.
Then again there's a big chance that Idra is a notch higher skill-wise than everyone else in the foreign scene due to him being on a korean pro-team, which kind of gives him an "unfair" advantage. I don't think Idra's complaining, there's alot of money on the line. He is very much associated with the foreign scene though, not by contribution per se but from involvement for many years, being on the Media team etc.
i dont think IdrA should be able to play considering he has been on CJ for what 2 years??? and he is offiliated with a professional SC scence so by letting him play you your self are breaking rule 3, !!!! get your facts right!! he is affiliated with CJ Entus......... ---------------------------------------- Previously banned user
Would steroids be a big deal in baseball if only 1 person obtained an advantage over the others? Probably not, at least not as much as if a bunch of people started to obtain an advantage through the same means. If you choose to overlook this advantage, sooner or later you end up with a scenario where people that are not privy to pro training will not be able to compete in tourneys like this. For now it's not a big deal, but when it becomes a bigger issue, you are going to have to address it. So the question is "why not now?" It wouldn't be the end of the world to not address that question now, but it does seem logical to at least ponder it.
You wouldn't want to discourage anyone from becoming a pro and chasing their dreams, obviously, so if they don't get paid much at all, then that does make it a harder decision on what to do.
When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.
This is subjective.
I don't think anyone is arguing that we're applying an objective standard, of course its subjective.
On November 19 2009 06:23 Foucault wrote: Ok so basically it's about skill level.
No, it's not.
So you're saying it's only about who's korean and who's not with the exception of Idra and Ret? I like how the rules are bent in the direction that allows foreigners in Korea to still be able to participate, just because they are non-korean.
"This is only for foreigners".
"Why?"
"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"
"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"
I may be a dumbass but I could understand the rules easily if it was only about practical issues that I mentioned in my last post, but when it's only about what country you're from/residing in (with convenient exceptions in Idra/Ret), I'm kind of lost.
On November 19 2009 06:23 Foucault wrote: Ok so basically it's about skill level.
No, it's not.
So you're saying it's only about who's korean and who's not with the exception of Idra and Ret? I like how the rules are bent in the direction that allows foreigners in Korea to still be able to participate, just because they are non-korean.
I think 24 pages of us re-iterating that its more about being a part of the foreigner community than it is being a certain race. If Idra or Ret had the exact same lives but were Greg Park or Jos Kim, they'd still be allowed to play.
"This is only for foreigners".
"Why?"
"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"
"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"
Why does CSL only allow players affiliated with a college? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of college players and non college players? Why does WCG allow only a certain number of players per nation? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of as many players from as many nations as possible? Why do we even have StarCraft-only tournaments? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of as many players from as many video games as possible?
Every tournament has goals. We stated our goals for the TSL, and they work for several reasons. One reason is ratings and interest -- if we were to make a tournament that allowed all Koreans, it'd be dominated by semi-professionals and basically would be a very watered down version of GOM. Are you saying that we should do that? That is a different argument altogether (and I think the opinion on that would be "it's a stupid idea that would never work").
Your post here is suggesting that our reasons and goals for doing the TSL as a foreigner tournament are wrong, and that it's so obvious that we should be allowing all Koreans. Obviously, you have your own opinion and are entitled to disagree. You can even post here and disagree with us. But when you make an argument that we're stupid for providing a tournament for foreigners in the first place -- you're the one thats being ridiculous.
As I said, every tournament has goals, and the vast majority of people like the TSL for being a foreigner only tournament. Argue with our reasoning or rules, fine. But don't come in and attack our reasons for having a tournament in the first place, because what you're suggesting would mean no TSL at all.
I may be a dumbass but I could understand the rules easily if it was only about practical issues that I mentioned in my last post, but when it's only about what country you're from/residing in (with convenient exceptions in Idra/Ret), I'm kind of lost.
You read 24 pages of us repeating the same thing over and over, and yet still interpret it this way. There's only so many times we can explain it.
Yes, I do get the argument that you don't want very good players (koreans) in the tournaments for the reason that they would own the competition hands down. I'm saying that it WOULD be cool if it was possible to have korean amateurs/semi-pros in TSL (TL is a very Korea-oriented website after all), but I understand that there are practical issues that can't be solved; account sharing, aka's etc. So yeah, I don't see how it could be done atm.
I never said you are "stupid" for providing a tournament for foreigners. I've already written my views above and regarding Idra/Ret, those guys obviously have a bigger chance of winning TSL because they are residing in a pro-gaming environment, but apparently that doesn't matter because they are foreigners and not raised there. Idra has been there for 2 years now though, which definately counts for something.
I didn't attack anyone. You guys made a thread lol, obviously it will attract some feedback. God, I'm looking forward to TSL, don't read too much into this. I'm not hating, merely engaging in interesting discussion imo. No, I do get it. But we have different opinions and I'm not sure you understand the problem I'm proposing but it doesn't matter.
On November 20 2009 06:07 Foucault wrote: Yeah I know, it's not race it's culture/country.
Yes, I do get the argument that you don't want very good players (koreans) in the tournaments for the reason that they would own the competition hands down. I'm saying that it WOULD be cool if it was possible to have korean amateurs/semi-pros in TSL (TL is a very Korea-oriented website after all), but I understand that there are practical issues that can't be solved; account sharing, aka's etc. So yeah, I don't see how it could be done atm.
There are more considerations than simply that they are good and might win. A large part of the appeal of TSL is watching players you know about -- a large number of amateur Koreans undoubtedly would create a high quality in games, but would you care about their interviews? They are not a part of the community and likely would not post or interact apart from play their matches. Obviously, foreigner Starcraft is not on the same level as Korean professional Starcraft. But there's a reason people watch high school sports -- its a connection they feel with the competitors. The same for the NCAA mens basketball tournament. It's not the highest quality competition, but it draws much more audience than the NBA finals.
You say "it'd be cool if korean amateurs and semi pros played," well I think "it'd be cool" if we had 50,000 people in a stadium for TSL finals and we were bigger than the OSL. Unfortunately, for many of the reasons you list, its not possible to have it that way.
If you understand the "practical issues that can't be solved" why do you make this comment:
"This is only for foreigners".
"Why?"
"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"
"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"
When you clearly understand why the idea you suggest would not work? Here you are making it sound like we have absolutely no reason for keeping it foreigner-only. This part of your post is sarcastic and asinine, and insinuates that its obvious we should have different goals. If you understand the reasoning, then all this part of the post is doing is trying to insult us.
I never said you are "stupid" for providing a tournament for foreigners. I've already written my views above and regarding Idra/Ret, those guys obviously have a bigger chance of winning TSL because they are residing in a pro-gaming environment, but apparently that doesn't matter because they are foreigners and not raised there. Idra has been there for 2 years now though, which definately counts for something.
You implied that we should not have a tournament for foreigners. Look at the "conversation" you posted -- it basically says that we have no reason to have a tournament for foreigners, and instead should "unify" the scenes, which we all know is not feasible through a tournament at the moment.
I didn't attack anyone. You guys made a thread lol, obviously it will attract some feedback. God, I'm looking forward to TSL, don't read too much into this. I'm not hating, merely engaging in interesting discussion imo. No, I do get it. But we have different opinions and I'm not sure you understand the problem I'm proposing but it doesn't matter.
You just said you "don't get it" and then made a sarcastic remark about our goals behind the TSL. You didn't explicitly say "you are stupid" but you clearly implied it. Now you say you "get it" and just have a different opinion. That's what I see a lot in this thread -- users not thinking and emotionally writing incendiary and over the top posts about how we're racist, or we're stupid, or this makes absolutely no sense. There is a large difference that feed back (constructive criticism / informed disagreement).
Your argument just doesn't make sense. They practiced super hard to get to Korea, any other foreigner can/could have done the same. The fact of the matter is that both IdrA and Ret are and have been involved in the foreigner community FOR YEARS. They are in Korea now and are continuing their involvement in the foreign scene.
The purpose of TSL is to give the foreigners something to look forward to. It is the biggest event we have. Allowing Koreans to play in it defeats the purpose. Nongmin would be great for the competition, but he's not a foreigner. He hasn't participated or been involved in the foreign scene, and in fact he has directly AVOIDED getting involved in it, as I know from personal experience.
Notice how he hasn't streamed at all since this announcement?
The decision of the TL staff is not necessarily based on "koreans being too good" - it's not about skill. The point is that Koreans have THEIR OWN tournaments, leagues, etc. They don't need to come and take our money too. They don't care about our players or our community, so it makes 0 logical sense to give them our money.
THAT is the point. If Koreans were fully integrated into our community and didn't have so many opportunities in Korea to earn money playing this game, then it would be no problem to include them.
The fact of the matter is that Koreans are a separate entity, like it or not. Nongmin can play in hundreds of local PC Bang tournaments and win money, etc. Nobody else has this opportunity. The TSL is our one and only chance to earn big bucks playing this game, and it is for the members of OUR community.
Nongmin, despite the fact that he set up a stream for his own reasons, hasn't been a part of our community, and has directly shown to not be interested.
Xeris, I know your intentions were good, but it's far less about "us and them" and "our money and their money." There is no "our money." This is a foreigner tournament that a sponsor provided money for. They knew it was a foreigner tournament going in. Making the TSL open to Korean amateurs is NOT about "them taking our money" and more about our audience simply not caring as much about it (read: less viewers). In order to generate interest and following, you can't just put out a product that is exactly like another, better product. TSL's uniqueness lies in its international appeal. We do not want to be GOM-beta, because obviously we cannot compete with a major Korean league in production value or game quality.
Why would anyone want to watch a tournament filled with amateur Koreans when they can watch OSL or Proleague? There's no market for it, and thus no sponsors. That is why we have a league for foreigners -- very few events have what we have to offer in terms of streams and players.
I understand if someone disagrees with our Nongmin decision, but I can't believe Foucault (or anyone) would actually think it's a good idea to change the one part of TSL that makes it viable to its audience. Be thankful we do not listen to these "ideas" because allowing Korean amateurs / semipros into our tournament would ultimately lead to TSL not existing.
I think the real reason is that we don't know this guy well enough, and if he went to korea and allowed some of his KTF buddies to play for him and own shit up, it wouldn't be a neat way to wrap up TSL2.
Seriously. If we allowed the amateurs then what fun would there be in making the cheerfuls? Can you imagine it? "By.GoGoGGGLHF fighting!". What about the current poll? The list of choices would probably be a bunch of people none of us (save romad) have ever heard of. Oh, and the interviews? What interviews?
It would BORING because the vast majority of TL users cannot relate to these players at all. As somebody (think it was HB) said before, TSL would become basically a watered down GOM. At that point you might as well just go watch OSL. At least those players you can somewhat identify with. Hell, the professionals are probably more so a part of the foreigner scene than the semi-pros are. At the very least we know who they are.
Keeping the foreigner scene alive requires the presence of good, well organized tournaments with nice prize pools. I mean no disrespect to any other foreign tournament out there but TSL blows them out of the water. This is our OSL. We would ruin everything that makes TSL awesome by allowing the amateurs.
I made the comment about unification between the different scenes because I want to create discussion about things that strike me as important. It's an overlying thing, that one can think about. I know it's not possible or even wantable in the TSL, I'm just thinking in a broader perspective.
I'm "insulting" you and implying that "you are stupid"? Well pardon me for having an opinion. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything that is said, doesn't mean that they are being hostile. My posting has been pretty constructive in this thread compared to alot of trash posts, so don't get all condescending with me, implying that I'm not thinking or able to understand an argument.
It's funny how "informed disagreement" almost always is something that people just talk about but they end up bashing opinions that differ from their own in the end anyways. I disagree with certain aspects, but it doesn't mean that I don't think that TSL 2 will be a great event. I am discussing my views in this thread, which btw aren't opposite your views.
Now that you have cemented yourself as the pillar of truth and logic reasoning and exposed me for what I am, an implied illogical (emotional reasoning) and stupid (not thinking) random poster on TL, shall we move on?
I understand that you have been discussing this issue between the staff members alot and I respect that. There might be some issues and points I don't see. No hard feelings whatsoever, at least from my part.
They won't be able to play from China we have done all kinds of testing but nothing works unfortunately. We are in talks about a few specific players working out something with their sponsor to fly them out to for example Singapore for the duration of TSL. We really hope something comes out of that but it's out of our hands at this point.
On November 20 2009 21:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: They won't be able to play from China we have done all kinds of testing but nothing works unfortunately. We are in talks about a few specific players working out something with their sponsor to fly them out to for example Singapore for the duration of TSL. We really hope something comes out of that but it's out of our hands at this point.
wow thats really interesting
now what about duskbin.sen, does he have lag issues 2, or can he play?
On November 18 2009 17:29 LibertyTerran wrote: I've been following this thread since the beginning and here is my opinion.
What I find debatable in these rules are especially in two terms: 2a "He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene OR" 2b "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team"
*snip*
Rule 2b: some people didn't read rule 2a carefully and thus became angry about why Idra & Ret can play even though they are in Korea and in Proteam. These people should read Rule2a again and with the big OR after it. In this case, rule 2b basically blocks Nongming from playing TSL as he doesn't fit in Rule 2a and the rest of the Korean gamers who are in Korea during the TSL.
However, if an A, A+ Korean amateur wants to ruin the "foreign-only" characteristic of this tournament, he can just travel to another country that has good internet connection (Rule 1), slips through Rule 2b and steam-rolls the rest our foreign participants. The term "currently resides" in Rule 2b is defined very loosely (is 30-day tourist visa can be considered as "currently reside"?).
*snip
No one's responded to this yet so I'll take a shot at this:
Nazgul earlier posted (don't have time to really find where, but it's there) that part of the reason why the rules were worded the way they are is because of enforceability issues. That is to say, there is no way to distinguish between a Korean-American who has lived in the United States all his life to a guy who has lived in Korea all his life and then moved to the United States shortly before the TSL started, short of doing extensive (and ultimately unreliable) background checks on both of them.
Given that they don't want to exclude Korean-Americans (they are foreigners, after all--if you don't believe that, then you are looking at this from a race perspective and not a cultural perspective, which is not what the TSL is going for), the best way for eligibility is to check for the IP of a player to see if they are "foreign" (and you brought up the point that they might not be, if they have recently moved).
Ultimately, it probably won't matter since it's doubtful that a Korean gosu would fly over to some foreign country for a month just to play in the TSL.
Yeah, they'd have to be outside of Korea for the Nov/Dec ladder, the Jan qualifiers, and the Jan/Feb TSL. Maybe some A+ Korean amateur will drop everything and move to another country for 3+ months to play in an online SC tournament, but it seems unlikely. :p
And even if they do, when you see an "unknown" new foreigner you can just match hotkeys and IP and any other data he used to register to check that he's not an amateur who lived all his life in korea :p
On November 20 2009 20:02 IdrA wrote: thanks for arranging this for me guys
haha. the perfect response.
take a moment, pause from arguing redundant points and appreciate how transparently it's being handled - even if you don't agree. thanks to the mods and to the honest opposition who didn't resort to weird racist accusations. the passion is what makes tsl/tl fun.
On November 13 2009 18:24 Pholon wrote: I don't get how you measure Nongmin's contribution to the foreign communit by comparing it to Rekrul, Idra, Artosis etc contribution when he contributes much more than the average person elligible to play. And yes Kona gets to play but you're saying that if he happened to be on vacation in Korea those three weeks you'd exclude him? That's bizarre imo, it's not like he'll get picked up by a pro team right away and receive special training in those 3 or so weeks... right?
For the record, lilsusie and uhjoo are both ineligible for the TSL.
On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote: It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment.
I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living.
I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate.
If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK.
If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that.
I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament.
Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him.
Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold.
Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday.
This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception.
Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to not make an exception for him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction.
So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted.
I hope this clears up you confusion
EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
This should be in the OP. I read eleven pages before I finally understood what was going on.
Nong should be able to play. Poorly worded OP to cover its ass but it's pretty obvious it doesn't sound right. Shouldn't deny the guy when he's passionate about the game. "If he makes himself more known to the foreign community." I heard an easy way to do that would be by playing in the biggest online foreign tournament. Aka giving him a chance.
If people who are currently playing as professional gamers are able to play, nong should be able to play. The whole 'grew up there and is now back' is such a load. Not like he's guaranteed to win, but despite 'accepting it' he still wants to play.
You have a person currently playing as a progamer playing in this tournament, and another starting or soon to be or wherever the fuck Ret is. Either exclude everyone currently playing in korea, (this would actually be fair) or don't. This just doesn't fit. Do people want to see IdrA and Ret play against foreigners? Of course. But I'm sure they'd like to see the A zerg that streamed for them as well. He streamed for members on your site, and you basically give him the finger in the nicest way possible. That's low.
So you have active professionals playing against amateurs. That's not remotely fair. No matter how you slice it or pretty it up. The whole OP reeks. You don't benefit by being born in Korea or living there. The unfair advantage comes from you waking up and playing SC all day in a house devoted to playing SC all day until you drop, whereas the vast majority of the amateurs in the tournament don't play half as much. So let the man play. Hell, cast it to the TL members to vote. Because this decision doesn't smell right.
Testie did you develop these expert insights on what's fair and whats not after or before you got caught hacking the third time?
I agree with the decision to not allow nongminzerg to play and the decision to allow ret and idra to play. TSL isant an amateurs tournament its a tournament for foreigners and no matter how you look at it ret and idra are 100% foreigners.
Nongminzerg on the other hand isant so clear cut. He has only been part of the community for a few months and now hes going back to korea for an extended stay. From what I have heard his stay isant just a couple of weeks or anything but several months and theres no guarantee he will even come back. So what happens to TSL if nong wins and decides to stay in korea? Then you have the biggest foreigner tournament of all time won basically by an amateur korean player who played it from korea. It would kill a lot of credibility TSL has and would damage chances for future TSLs. I think its too big of a risk for TSL to grant a special exemption for someone who isant even a clear member of the foreigner community.
On November 21 2009 19:17 MYM.Testie wrote: Nah this still stinks.
Nong should be able to play. Poorly worded OP to cover its ass but it's pretty obvious it doesn't sound right. Shouldn't deny the guy when he's passionate about the game. "If he makes himself more known to the foreign community." I heard an easy way to do that would be by playing in the biggest online foreign tournament. Aka giving him a chance.
If people who are currently playing as professional gamers are able to play, nong should be able to play. The whole 'grew up there and is now back' is such a load. Not like he's guaranteed to win, but despite 'accepting it' he still wants to play.
You have a person currently playing as a progamer playing in this tournament, and another starting or soon to be or wherever the fuck Ret is. Either exclude everyone currently playing in korea, (this would actually be fair) or don't. This just doesn't fit. Do people want to see IdrA and Ret play against foreigners? Of course. But I'm sure they'd like to see the A zerg that streamed for them as well. He streamed for members on your site, and you basically give him the finger in the nicest way possible. That's low.
So you have active professionals playing against amateurs. That's not remotely fair. No matter how you slice it or pretty it up. The whole OP reeks. You don't benefit by being born in Korea or living there. The unfair advantage comes from you waking up and playing SC all day in a house devoted to playing SC all day until you drop, whereas the vast majority of the amateurs in the tournament don't play half as much. So let the man play. Hell, cast it to the TL members to vote. Because this decision doesn't smell right.
so wcg shouldn't exist? that's professionals playing against amateurs so its not remotely fair right? didn't u go to wcg? why didn't u sit out in protest.
The unfair advantage comes from you waking up and playing SC all day in a house devoted to playing SC all day until you drop, whereas the vast majority of the amateurs in the tournament don't play half as much.
Are you saying tournaments shouldn't have allowed you to join?
The OP is the major problem in this thread. I would have accepted a simple "We decided Nongming didn't fit the spirit of the tournament and did not grant him an exception" much more easily than that 1000 word attempt at creating convoluted rules and loopholes to appear fair. It came off slimy, and you can't help but be suspicious of your intentions, like the rest of this thread shows.
We decided Nongming didn't fit the spirit of the tournament and did not grant him an exception
That's exactly what the OP says. It has an explanation of the rules (=spirit of the tournament) and it looks into nongmins case of granting an exception. Sure we could have done it your way and not explained anything but I somehow don't think that would make us look better.
The unfair advantage comes from you waking up and playing SC all day in a house devoted to playing SC all day until you drop, whereas the vast majority of the amateurs in the tournament don't play half as much.
Are you saying tournaments shouldn't have allowed you to join?
Are you going to say anything of value? My life wasn't like that so while I enjoy the flame attempts, stay on topic. When you go down this route instead it just accentuates that you have nothing to say except to redirect the topic. This decision makes TL look bad. I'm saying this for your sake, this has nothing to do with me. Don't be idiots and realize you made a mistake.
Because here's what it reads: "He's a great guy who loves Starcraft and plays well! He's not a progamer, but he was born in the wrong place. Awww too bad." Denying someone who plays the game a tonne, and isn't on the proleague roster and would like to show off his skills is the exact opposite of the spirit of any tournament that wishes to give players a chance and make the community more active. "Active member of the community who is new is denied because he doesn't have enough background?"
The rules would make more sense if you banned actual progamers from playing (aka IdrA) and let nong play.
On November 21 2009 20:23 mig wrote: Testie did you develop these expert insights on what's fair and whats not after or before you got caught hacking the third time?
If this is how you reply to genuine posts, you are a tool.
On November 22 2009 04:00 MYM.Testie wrote: Are you going to say anything of value? My life wasn't like that so while I enjoy the flame attempts, stay on topic. When you go down this route instead it just accentuates that you have nothing to say except to redirect the topic. This decision makes TL look bad. I'm saying this for your sake, this has nothing to do with me. Don't be idiots and realize you made a mistake.
Because here's what it reads: "He's a great guy who loves Starcraft and plays well! He's not a progamer, but he was born in the wrong place. Awww too bad." Denying someone who plays the game a tonne, and on the proleague roster and would like to show off his skills is the exact opposite of the spirit of any tournament that wishes to give players a chance and make the community more active. "Active member of the community who is new is denied because he doesn't have enough background?"
You made a mistake. Own up to it.
Unfortunately your post was filled with so much randomness I figured it was a troll. Apparently I'm wrong so I'll go through it for you.
I don't know where you find the nerve to talk about whats fair and what's right for TSL. In TSL1 you qualified top 48 and were saying you were tired of SC. We told you that if you weren't planning on playing the tournament you should delete your account and everyone in the ladder would have moved up a spot. That way our tournament would not have dropouts/replacements. We talked to you about this and explained you why it is important for us not to have dropouts in our tournament and thus asked you to show up or delete your account in advance. You agreed to play the tournament. But.. where were you? You decided it wasn't worth your time after promising Manifesto that you'd be there. After spending countless of hours qualifying you decided the two hours it took you to play the tournament were not worth it. Instead of deleting your account you made us look like fools and were banned from TL for the remainder of the tournament.
You come here sitting on your high horse after all the history you have. Still telling others what's right and wrong. You haven't bothered to read the previous 25 pages. You come in here without reading the topic and argue things that have been discussed and answered before.
Nong should be able to play. Poorly worded OP to cover its ass but it's pretty obvious it doesn't sound right. Shouldn't deny the guy when he's passionate about the game. "If he makes himself more known to the foreign community." I heard an easy way to do that would be by playing in the biggest online foreign tournament. Aka giving him a chance.
Did you read the part where it says initially Nongmin was allowed to participate under our rules, the same rules that are in the OP. After the rules were set we were informed that he wouldn't be located in the US.
What does passion for the game have to do with anything? There's about a 1000 Koreans passionate about SC that could win TSL. Let them all join the fun and introduce them to the community by letting them play TSL! Brilliant stuff.
If people who are currently playing as professional gamers are able to play, nong should be able to play. The whole 'grew up there and is now back' is such a load. Not like he's guaranteed to win, but despite 'accepting it' he still wants to play.
You have a person currently playing as a progamer playing in this tournament, and another starting or soon to be or wherever the fuck Ret is. Either exclude everyone currently playing in korea, (this would actually be fair) or don't. This just doesn't fit. Do people want to see IdrA and Ret play against foreigners? Of course. But I'm sure they'd like to see the A zerg that streamed for them as well.
It's a foreigner tournament. Idra and Ret are foreigners. Has nothing to do with Nongmin. Did you complain about Grrrr... and Smuft playing Canadian WCGs back in the day? What point are you making that because Idra is a professional nong should be able to play? You might as well have said because of people currently playing as professionals Flash should be able to play.
He streamed for members on your site, and you basically give him the finger in the nicest way possible. That's low.
Streaming on TL is not the all or nothing on how decisions are made. We realize he streamed for three months and has 12 posts on TL. Read Xeris' post on nongmins participation in the foreign scene to learn a bit more about the situation. It's in the topic.
So you have active professionals playing against amateurs. That's not remotely fair. No matter how you slice it or pretty it up. The whole OP reeks. You don't benefit by being born in Korea or living there. The unfair advantage comes from you waking up and playing SC all day in a house devoted to playing SC all day until you drop, whereas the vast majority of the amateurs in the tournament don't play half as much. So let the man play. Hell, cast it to the TL members to vote. Because this decision doesn't smell right.
At a time you were waking up and playing SC all day, playing with Koreans refining your skills. Yet you were joining every random bnet tournament available. The hypocrisy of your posting is disgusting.
What about WCG where professionals mix with amateurs. WCG isn't the 40 best players in the world, it's the 4 best together with 36 amateurs. But we all deal with the rules they set because they want to have an international appeal. WCG knows that if it's about the best players it would solely be Koreans. They also know that if they wouldn't allow professionals they'd lose their appeal from the Korean scene. They do what they have to do. And I've never seen you raise your voice against it.
You need to go over your post again Naz. The past and other tournaments have nothing to do with the bad OP and rules in this topic. Thanks for rambling but unfair rules are in place with shady loopholes. That's all there is to it. And it's just hiding behind, "Sorry the rules displease you people, they were in place before we knew of nongmin. Our hands are tied." He is just as eligible for exception. What's the harm in letting one more guy in? People would be happier if you would let him in.
TSL isant an amateurs tournament its a tournament for foreigners and no matter how you look at it ret and idra are 100% foreigners.
Nongminzerg on the other hand isant so clear cut. He has only been part of the community for a few months and now hes going back to korea for an extended stay. From what I have heard his stay isant just a couple of weeks or anything but several months and theres no guarantee he will even come back. So what happens to TSL if nong wins and decides to stay in korea? Then you have the biggest foreigner tournament of all time won basically by an amateur korean player who played it from korea. It would kill a lot of credibility TSL has and would damage chances for future TSLs. I think its too big of a risk for TSL to grant a special exemption for someone who isant even a clear member of the foreigner community.
Why would that look bad or hurt TSL's credibility? You have the hotkey signatures, not like he's going to up and fool you and have a super progamer play in the tournament. He lived in the US for the last 4 years. You could say, "Wow you did great! See you next TSL!" It doesn't really matter what nationality wins the tournament. And that's IF he won. The chances of that aren't super massively huge. It's not like Jaedong entered the tournament. He started participating in the foreign community before entering this tournament and lived abroad even. He's as 'foreign' as any other player in this tournament, he's just newer to the scene. Are you really going to go by post count? You are denying an eager competitor who genuinely seems to fit the bill for what is 'foreign' and wants to play and are making him sad by not allowing it. The only thing that makes you look bad in this topic is how you deal with people who voice their logical opinions on what they feel is an illogical set of rules.
Based on history, community involvement, Nongmin is not a foreigner. I don't see how anyone can argue that someone who hasn't played any foreigner tournaments is "part of the foreigner community" when he's streamed for a few months.
If you think it's unfair to have tournaments with Idra and Ret in them, that's an entirely different discussion. Both of these players are clearly part of the foreigner community. They played in foreigner tournaments for years, and fans clearly want to see them play. There's a reason IEF invites Korean pros, or WCG allows them. Do you think these tournaments made mistakes too? It's obvious for ratings and interest that popular players be allowed to play. And as great as Nongmin is, he's not a popular player in the sense that very few people outside those who watch his stream know him, and he's played in 0 foreigner tournaments throughout his history. As I said earlier, even in this thread its 55 to 45 about whether we should let him play.
Lastly, I'd like to implore people to not complain just because they have something against the TeamLiquid Staff. Testie is NOT eligible to play in the PokerStrategy.com TSL because of what he pulled last time -- informing us days before the qualifiers that he wasn't playing -- which forced us to scramble to find players and created an unfair situation for Dunaj and Horror.
It's obvious someone who is banned from competition would want to criticize and bring down our league's credibility. Testie, is it really necessary to act out such personal vendettas against us? We are only trying to run a tournament for the community that you aren't even a part of any more -- just allow us to run this fun event instead of trying to tear us down. We don't need your biased negativity.
We would have allowed you to play this time had you acted in a more professional manner during TSL1 -- it's a pity it had to turn out that way.
This isn't personal, what on earth? What kind of sick troll is this? Bring down a league? What do I possibly have to gain for that. Furthermore, how can a few posts even go to that? I am not a petty person, nor do I harbor any vendetta. I thought I generally liked TL? Apparently I hate it? wtf? I can't bring down the league. Your post really makes no sense now and has gone overboard on the slander. "This lone rogue hates TL and wants to bring down the league and make us look bad." Why the hell would I do that? I'm offering genuine advice that it would make you look good to allow him to play.
This just got ridiculous on so many levels. Like, overly ridiculous. Just wow.
On November 22 2009 05:53 MYM.Testie wrote: This isn't personal, what on earth? What kind of sick troll is this? Bring down a league? What do I possibly have to gain for that. Furthermore, how can a few posts even go to that? I am not a petty person, nor do I harbor any vendetta. I thought I generally liked TL? Apparently I hate it? wtf? I can't bring down the league. Your post really makes no sense now and has gone overboard on the slander.
This just got ridiculous on so many levels.
Yes, because its not ridiculous that the bulk of the Nongmin discussion occurred the week of November 12, and you just happen to bump and whine and flame and do this on the day the ladder opens? That's just a coincidence right? I'm just pointing out how your bias influences your opinions here, and that people should know all the facts when reading someone who so clearly wants to harm our league.
As much as you want us to discuss player eligibility for 3 months, please stop whining and let the fans and players and organizers focus their attention on running a good league. I think the community deserves that. Again, we have good intentions and are just trying to run a tournament that benefits everyone.
I didn't even read the topic a week ago. I didn't check it. I'm just late to the discussion. That's some serious paranoia HB and way off base. Anyway sorry I didn't really "bump" it as for me to notice it, it had to be in the top 5 threads. Anyway yes, I am done here. This is too ridiculous.
On November 22 2009 05:58 MYM.Testie wrote: I didn't even read the topic a week ago. I didn't check it. I'm just late to the discussion. That's some serious paranoia HB and way off base. Anyway sorry I didn't really "bump" it as for me to notice it, it had to be in the top 5 threads. Anyway yes, I am done here. This is too ridiculous.
Thank you for taking into consideration whats best for the community and TeamLiquid, and stopping your biased attack so we can focus on more important things, like ensuring a fair and well-run ladder so that our tournament can move forward to the qualifier stage that hopefully will have no drop outs or hackers.
Why does Nongming need to be involved in foreign tournaments as a prerequisite for being apart of the foreign community? That seems an odd way to measure community involvement or contribution. And since this is mostly about Idra and Nongming and why one is given an exception and not the other, I'd just say I'd take Nongming's 3 months worth of streaming over Idra's tournament involvement and once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums. I value it more.
On November 22 2009 06:05 Scooge wrote: Why does Nongming need to be involved in foreign tournaments as a prerequisite for being apart of the foreign community? That seems an odd way to measure community involvement or contribution. And since this is mostly about Idra and Nongming and why one is given an exception and not the other, I'd just say I'd take Nongming's 3 months worth of streaming over Idra's tournament involvement and once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums. I value it more.
I'm really glad subjective people like you don't make up the rules.
On November 22 2009 06:05 Scooge wrote: Why does Nongming need to be involved in foreign tournaments as a prerequisite for being apart of the foreign community? That seems an odd way to measure community involvement or contribution. And since this is mostly about Idra and Nongming and why one is given an exception and not the other, I'd just say I'd take Nongming's 3 months worth of streaming over Idra's tournament involvement and once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums. I value it more.
I'm really glad subjective people like you don't make up the rules.
I hope you were being ironic because that's exactly what's happening. Exception for player A, but not player B because we judge X, Y, Z subjectively. I'm over it. I like Nongming, but I know nothing is changing no matter what's posted.
On November 22 2009 06:05 Scooge wrote: Why does Nongming need to be involved in foreign tournaments as a prerequisite for being apart of the foreign community? That seems an odd way to measure community involvement or contribution. And since this is mostly about Idra and Nongming and why one is given an exception and not the other, I'd just say I'd take Nongming's 3 months worth of streaming over Idra's tournament involvement and once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums. I value it more.
I'm really glad subjective people like you don't make up the rules.
I hope you were being ironic because that's exactly what's happening. Exception for player A, but not player B because we judge X, Y, Z subjectively. I'm over it. I like Nongming, but I know nothing is changing no matter what's posted.
Look, if you were to make the rules you would obviously make them based on personal preference; you simply like Nongmin more Idra. The reasoning behind making an exception for Idra and not for Nongmin is not ''We like Idra more''. They have clearly stated that TSL is meant to be a foreign event; Idra is a foreigner, Nongmin is not, hence the exception.
On November 22 2009 06:05 Scooge wrote: Why does Nongming need to be involved in foreign tournaments as a prerequisite for being apart of the foreign community? That seems an odd way to measure community involvement or contribution. And since this is mostly about Idra and Nongming and why one is given an exception and not the other, I'd just say I'd take Nongming's 3 months worth of streaming over Idra's tournament involvement and once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums. I value it more.
? "once in a blue moon snide remarks on these forums"? IdrA is very very active on TL
Idra is indeed very active, and he doesn't just write ''snide remarks''. He contributes with a lot of high quality posts in the Strategy forum. And there are plenty of players who are just as much (or more) BM as Idra is (Louder: ''Kill yourself thrash'' and then leaving without gg after being cheesed). Yet Idra gets more hate than pretty much anyone else.
why is it always pointed out that nongmin has only been part of the community for a short time?
why does that even matter? is that some kinda rule? I didnt read any? how many days/weeks/months/years do you have to be active in the non korean community?
it is also not like he became active in the community to grab all the prize money from the tourneys, the TSL was announced way after he showed clearly that he wants to be part of our community. it also doesnt matter why he did that, or that he did it after beeing already for what, ?3 years?, outside of korea.
to me this whole shit looks a lot like "cronyism", à la "you're tha nu guy, we dont like nu guys, go home to your old friends, you didnt want us before now dont come and take part in our big events". a really low move from the administration.
@Liquid_Nazgul your attack on Testie is very low, why talk so much about his person instead of the issue? it's very cheap to attack his fairness credibility when he brings up valid points. domestic policy not person policy is the real deal its about the cause not the people.
I think every possible argument has been discussed and every question answered over the last 25 pages. At this point its just staff repeating the same thing over and over, and we have more important things to focus on.
We're all sad for Nongmin, but we look forward to his Liquibition match in the future.
EPT
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