TSL Player Eligibility and Nongminzerg - Page 24

venture

United States3 Posts

November 18 2009 21:35 GMT

#461

i dont think (T)

IdrA should be able to play considering he has been on CJ for what 2 years???
and he is offiliated with a professional SC scence so by letting him play you your self are breaking rule 3, !!!! get your facts right!! he is affiliated with CJ Entus.........
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Previously banned user

machinehead..

412 Posts

November 18 2009 22:06 GMT

#462

Would steroids be a big deal in baseball if only 1 person obtained an advantage over the others? Probably not, at least not as much as if a bunch of people started to obtain an advantage through the same means. If you choose to overlook this advantage, sooner or later you end up with a scenario where people that are not privy to pro training will not be able to compete in tourneys like this. For now it's not a big deal, but when it becomes a bigger issue, you are going to have to address it. So the question is "why not now?" It wouldn't be the end of the world to not address that question now, but it does seem logical to at least ponder it.

You wouldn't want to discourage anyone from becoming a pro and chasing their dreams, obviously, so if they don't get paid much at all, then that does make it a harder decision on what to do.

jalstar

United States8198 Posts

November 18 2009 23:14 GMT

#463

When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception.

This is subjective.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

November 18 2009 23:56 GMT

#464

On November 19 2009 08:14 jalstar wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is subjective.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we're applying an objective standard, of course its subjective.

SonuvBob

Aiur21549 Posts

November 19 2009 01:16 GMT

#465

On November 19 2009 06:23 Foucault wrote:
Ok so basically it's about skill level.

No, it's not.

jeddus

United States832 Posts

November 19 2009 03:35 GMT

#466

I just find it interesting people complain about allowing Idra and ret.

I mean, those are two guys who have been around for years and have had so many awesome wars against each other.

TSL is the best stage to watch the play what with the stream, the commentary, the replays, the interviews, the total coverage.

With that said... GO WHITE-RA!!!! :X

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

November 19 2009 19:33 GMT

#467

On November 19 2009 10:16 SonuvBob wrote:

Show nested quote +

No, it's not.

So you're saying it's only about who's korean and who's not with the exception of Idra and Ret? I like how the rules are bent in the direction that allows foreigners in Korea to still be able to participate, just because they are non-korean.

"This is only for foreigners".

"Why?"

"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"

"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"

I may be a dumbass but I could understand the rules easily if it was only about practical issues that I mentioned in my last post, but when it's only about what country you're from/residing in (with convenient exceptions in Idra/Ret), I'm kind of lost.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

November 19 2009 19:53 GMT

#468

On November 20 2009 04:33 Foucault wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think 24 pages of us re-iterating that its more about being a part of the foreigner community than it is being a certain race. If Idra or Ret had the exact same lives but were Greg Park or Jos Kim, they'd still be allowed to play.

"This is only for foreigners".

"Why?"

"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"

"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"

Why does CSL only allow players affiliated with a college? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of college players and non college players? Why does WCG allow only a certain number of players per nation? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of as many players from as many nations as possible? Why do we even have StarCraft-only tournaments? Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of as many players from as many video games as possible?

Every tournament has goals. We stated our goals for the TSL, and they work for several reasons. One reason is ratings and interest -- if we were to make a tournament that allowed all Koreans, it'd be dominated by semi-professionals and basically would be a very watered down version of GOM. Are you saying that we should do that? That is a different argument altogether (and I think the opinion on that would be "it's a stupid idea that would never work").

Your post here is suggesting that our reasons and goals for doing the TSL as a foreigner tournament are wrong, and that it's so obvious that we should be allowing all Koreans. Obviously, you have your own opinion and are entitled to disagree. You can even post here and disagree with us. But when you make an argument that we're stupid for providing a tournament for foreigners in the first place -- you're the one thats being ridiculous.

As I said, every tournament has goals, and the vast majority of people like the TSL for being a foreigner only tournament. Argue with our reasoning or rules, fine. But don't come in and attack our reasons for having a tournament in the first place, because what you're suggesting would mean no TSL at all.

I may be a dumbass but I could understand the rules easily if it was only about practical issues that I mentioned in my last post, but when it's only about what country you're from/residing in (with convenient exceptions in Idra/Ret), I'm kind of lost.

You read 24 pages of us repeating the same thing over and over, and yet still interpret it this way. There's only so many times we can explain it.

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

November 19 2009 21:07 GMT

#469

Yeah I know, it's not race it's culture/country.

Yes, I do get the argument that you don't want very good players (koreans) in the tournaments for the reason that they would own the competition hands down. I'm saying that it WOULD be cool if it was possible to have korean amateurs/semi-pros in TSL (TL is a very Korea-oriented website after all), but I understand that there are practical issues that can't be solved; account sharing, aka's etc.
So yeah, I don't see how it could be done atm.

I never said you are "stupid" for providing a tournament for foreigners. I've already written my views above and regarding Idra/Ret, those guys obviously have a bigger chance of winning TSL because they are residing in a pro-gaming environment, but apparently that doesn't matter because they are foreigners and not raised there. Idra has been there for 2 years now though, which definately counts for something.

I didn't attack anyone. You guys made a thread lol, obviously it will attract some feedback. God, I'm looking forward to TSL, don't read too much into this. I'm not hating, merely engaging in interesting discussion imo. No, I do get it. But we have different opinions and I'm not sure you understand the problem I'm proposing but it doesn't matter.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

November 19 2009 21:25 GMT

#470

On November 20 2009 06:07 Foucault wrote:
Yeah I know, it's not race it's culture/country.

Yes, I do get the argument that you don't want very good players (koreans) in the tournaments for the reason that they would own the competition hands down. I'm saying that it WOULD be cool if it was possible to have korean amateurs/semi-pros in TSL (TL is a very Korea-oriented website after all), but I understand that there are practical issues that can't be solved; account sharing, aka's etc.
So yeah, I don't see how it could be done atm.

There are more considerations than simply that they are good and might win. A large part of the appeal of TSL is watching players you know about -- a large number of amateur Koreans undoubtedly would create a high quality in games, but would you care about their interviews? They are not a part of the community and likely would not post or interact apart from play their matches. Obviously, foreigner Starcraft is not on the same level as Korean professional Starcraft. But there's a reason people watch high school sports -- its a connection they feel with the competitors. The same for the NCAA mens basketball tournament. It's not the highest quality competition, but it draws much more audience than the NBA finals.

You say "it'd be cool if korean amateurs and semi pros played," well I think "it'd be cool" if we had 50,000 people in a stadium for TSL finals and we were bigger than the OSL. Unfortunately, for many of the reasons you list, its not possible to have it that way.

If you understand the "practical issues that can't be solved" why do you make this comment:

"This is only for foreigners".

"Why?"

"Um...dunno actually, it just is! It was in the first TSL too"

"Shouldn't we actively promote the unification of the Korean and foreign scenes?"

When you clearly understand why the idea you suggest would not work? Here you are making it sound like we have absolutely no reason for keeping it foreigner-only. This part of your post is sarcastic and asinine, and insinuates that its obvious we should have different goals. If you understand the reasoning, then all this part of the post is doing is trying to insult us.

I never said you are "stupid" for providing a tournament for foreigners. I've already written my views above and regarding Idra/Ret, those guys obviously have a bigger chance of winning TSL because they are residing in a pro-gaming environment, but apparently that doesn't matter because they are foreigners and not raised there. Idra has been there for 2 years now though, which definately counts for something.

You implied that we should not have a tournament for foreigners. Look at the "conversation" you posted -- it basically says that we have no reason to have a tournament for foreigners, and instead should "unify" the scenes, which we all know is not feasible through a tournament at the moment.

I didn't attack anyone. You guys made a thread lol, obviously it will attract some feedback. God, I'm looking forward to TSL, don't read too much into this. I'm not hating, merely engaging in interesting discussion imo. No, I do get it. But we have different opinions and I'm not sure you understand the problem I'm proposing but it doesn't matter.

You just said you "don't get it" and then made a sarcastic remark about our goals behind the TSL. You didn't explicitly say "you are stupid" but you clearly implied it. Now you say you "get it" and just have a different opinion. That's what I see a lot in this thread -- users not thinking and emotionally writing incendiary and over the top posts about how we're racist, or we're stupid, or this makes absolutely no sense. There is a large difference that feed back (constructive criticism / informed disagreement).

Xeris

Iran17695 Posts

November 19 2009 21:27 GMT

#471

Your argument just doesn't make sense. They practiced super hard to get to Korea, any other foreigner can/could have done the same. The fact of the matter is that both IdrA and Ret are and have been involved in the foreigner community FOR YEARS. They are in Korea now and are continuing their involvement in the foreign scene.

The purpose of TSL is to give the foreigners something to look forward to. It is the biggest event we have. Allowing Koreans to play in it defeats the purpose. Nongmin would be great for the competition, but he's not a foreigner. He hasn't participated or been involved in the foreign scene, and in fact he has directly AVOIDED getting involved in it, as I know from personal experience.

Notice how he hasn't streamed at all since this announcement?

The decision of the TL staff is not necessarily based on "koreans being too good" - it's not about skill. The point is that Koreans have THEIR OWN tournaments, leagues, etc. They don't need to come and take our money too. They don't care about our players or our community, so it makes 0 logical sense to give them our money.

THAT is the point. If Koreans were fully integrated into our community and didn't have so many opportunities in Korea to earn money playing this game, then it would be no problem to include them.

The fact of the matter is that Koreans are a separate entity, like it or not. Nongmin can play in hundreds of local PC Bang tournaments and win money, etc. Nobody else has this opportunity. The TSL is our one and only chance to earn big bucks playing this game, and it is for the members of OUR community.

Nongmin, despite the fact that he set up a stream for his own reasons, hasn't been a part of our community, and has directly shown to not be interested.

Hot_Bid

Braavos36375 Posts

November 19 2009 21:34 GMT

#472

Xeris, I know your intentions were good, but it's far less about "us and them" and "our money and their money." There is no "our money." This is a foreigner tournament that a sponsor provided money for. They knew it was a foreigner tournament going in. Making the TSL open to Korean amateurs is NOT about "them taking our money" and more about our audience simply not caring as much about it (read: less viewers). In order to generate interest and following, you can't just put out a product that is exactly like another, better product. TSL's uniqueness lies in its international appeal. We do not want to be GOM-beta, because obviously we cannot compete with a major Korean league in production value or game quality.

Why would anyone want to watch a tournament filled with amateur Koreans when they can watch OSL or Proleague? There's no market for it, and thus no sponsors. That is why we have a league for foreigners -- very few events have what we have to offer in terms of streams and players.

I understand if someone disagrees with our Nongmin decision, but I can't believe Foucault (or anyone) would actually think it's a good idea to change the one part of TSL that makes it viable to its audience. Be thankful we do not listen to these "ideas" because allowing Korean amateurs / semipros into our tournament would ultimately lead to TSL not existing.

niteReloaded

Croatia5281 Posts

November 19 2009 22:00 GMT

#473

I think the real reason is that we don't know this guy well enough, and if he went to korea and allowed some of his KTF buddies to play for him and own shit up, it wouldn't be a neat way to wrap up TSL2.

LordWeird

United States3411 Posts

November 19 2009 22:03 GMT

#474

Seriously. If we allowed the amateurs then what fun would there be in making the cheerfuls? Can you imagine it? "By.GoGoGGGLHF fighting!". What about the current poll? The list of choices would probably be a bunch of people none of us (save romad) have ever heard of. Oh, and the interviews? What interviews?

It would BORING because the vast majority of TL users cannot relate to these players at all. As somebody (think it was HB) said before, TSL would become basically a watered down GOM. At that point you might as well just go watch OSL. At least those players you can somewhat identify with. Hell, the professionals are probably more so a part of the foreigner scene than the semi-pros are. At the very least we know who they are.

Keeping the foreigner scene alive requires the presence of good, well organized tournaments with nice prize pools. I mean no disrespect to any other foreign tournament out there but TSL blows them out of the water. This is our OSL. We would ruin everything that makes TSL awesome by allowing the amateurs.

Foucault

Sweden2826 Posts

November 19 2009 22:10 GMT

#475

Hotbid:

I made the comment about unification between the different scenes because I want to create discussion about things that strike me as important. It's an overlying thing, that one can think about. I know it's not possible or even wantable in the TSL, I'm just thinking in a broader perspective.

I'm "insulting" you and implying that "you are stupid"? Well pardon me for having an opinion. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything that is said, doesn't mean that they are being hostile. My posting has been pretty constructive in this thread compared to alot of trash posts, so don't get all condescending with me, implying that I'm not thinking or able to understand an argument.

It's funny how "informed disagreement" almost always is something that people just talk about but they end up bashing opinions that differ from their own in the end anyways. I disagree with certain aspects, but it doesn't mean that I don't think that TSL 2 will be a great event. I am discussing my views in this thread, which btw aren't opposite your views.

Now that you have cemented yourself as the pillar of truth and logic reasoning and exposed me for what I am, an implied illogical (emotional reasoning) and stupid (not thinking) random poster on TL, shall we move on?

I understand that you have been discussing this issue between the staff members alot and I respect that. There might be some issues and points I don't see. No hard feelings whatsoever, at least from my part.