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On November 16 2009 23:12 AwarE-- wrote:
But the point is that this thread -is- about him. There is no vocal opposition to him playing in the tournament. Prove me wrong.
Way to spin your senseless argument of allowing all Korean amateurs. Your prove me wrong attitude with a grand total of 9 posts and register date a few months ago is seriously misplaced. There is no need for a superiority complex when we have shown nothing but patience and will to explain ourselves over and over.
No matter how unfortunate it may be in this situation, not all our decisions are made through a community vote. You have to wonder how many people arguing here have given a single thought to the fact TSL is watched by a majority of people who rarely visit teamliquid that will not understand why someone in direct violation of the rules is allowed to play based on 12 posts and 3 months of livestream. We have explained why TSL rules are what they are, and explained why we feel exception will not be granted.
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I've been visiting TL.net and been around SC scene since probably 2001-2002. Don't be so quick to assume.
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My point is simply that instead of sticking to their guns, a lot of moderators and admins have been purporting that arguments against the ruling are invalid simply because they're a "vocal minority" and such.
I was just pointing out the fallacy in that argument.
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Okay, since it appears that people are arguing that there is a lack of vocal disagreement with the "consensus" then I will oblige.
I don't want Nongmin in the tournament. This is a foreigner tournament and whatever you say otherwise he's still korean. We need more foreigner centered events and he just hasn't done enough to "become" a foreigner yet, he's still on the line. The end.
And actually for my part Kennigit is right, I wasn't posting because the decision was final and I supported it 100%. But since people are going to claim that it should be majority rule here I decided I would offer my voice lolol. Also, I don't dislike Nongmin, and in fact I wouldn't be opposed to him being in TSL3, but it's too soon.
Additionally, I want to applaud the patience of the moderators and administrators.
TSL2 will be excellent with or without Nongmin.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 16 2009 22:45 AwarE-- wrote:
If there was a strong group of people who really hated the idea of korean amateurs playing in their tournament they would say so.
This is a completely illogical argument -- just because people come out and say "I agree with the rule" that doesn't mean they agree with the opposite of the rule. I don't see a large number of people saying we shouldn't allow Bisu, so does that mean we should allow him? I don't see a large number of people saying "I support anti-hack!" so should we allow hacking?
As Nazgul said, part of TSL's appeal is exactly that it's different than Korean tournaments. If we were to become a mini-online courage, we'd lose viewers, sponsors, and the tournament itself.
Also, I do not think the "consensus" and "majority" arguing for Nongmin to play is as strong as you believe. Not at all.
On November 17 2009 00:36 AwarE-- wrote:
My point is simply that instead of sticking to their guns, a lot of moderators and admins have been purporting that arguments against the ruling are invalid simply because they're a "vocal minority" and such.
I was just pointing out the fallacy in that argument.
Except this argument is true. If you read this thread it would seem like the vast majority of people would want Nongmin to play. That's just the "feeling" you get from reading this thread. But in fact, its just a lot of the same people getting mad, whereas people who agree just post one post.
I went through and actually counted the responses of people, trying not to double-count users who posted more than once. It's not 100% accurate, but give or take a few counting errors, here is how it came out:
47 people said that they agree with the decision, or feel sad that he can't play but still agree or understand. 58 people said that Nongmin should be allowed / an exception should be made / disagree with the decision.
58 to 47. And significant portion of the people posting are greatly misunderstanding what's going on, making accusations like "TL is racist!" or "They just want Idra to win!" or "They just don't want Nongmin to play!"
TSL has thousands of players and even more viewers. Are you saying the 11 person margin (58-47) people who posted to protest this rule speak for the "majority" of our community? That we should just ignore what we feel is best for keeping our tournament alive and popular because of an 11-person margin of posters in a single thread, when there are considerations of thousands of viewers and players?
Edit: 58-48 with the last post
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The point. You're missing it.
I'm not saying it should be overturned. I actually believe if the tournament organizers decide to disallow people with the name Chris, no amount of outrage by the community could change the decision, because it's a sponsored money tournament, not a community organized event.
I'll give a similar situation to exemplify my point. In arms negotiations, the groups seeking to ban certain weapons constantly engage the United States and other military superpowers on the effectiveness of their weapons, challenging the effectiveness and sanctioned use of them.
They are often wrong in their arguments, or jump to conclusions because they have a pre-determined stance. They could just simply say, "People are dying. The decision is easy." Instead they argue this complicated military point that is not easily made convincing.
I'm saying you're incorrect in trying to combat the viewpoint of the community or whoever they may be here (vocal minority, whatever) by invalidating their argument by saying it's a vocal minority and they're incorrect.
Just say it's your decision and stick to it, should've made this thread locked to begin with. Arguing about it just extends the babble.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 17 2009 01:29 AwarE-- wrote:
The point. You're missing it.
Please don't condescend to me, especially when you're completely incorrect. You are lucky I don't listen to your advice because if I did, you would be banned and I wouldn't be responding to the rest of your post.
I'm not saying it should be overturned. I actually believe if the tournament organizers decide to disallow people with the name Chris, no amount of outrage by the community could change the decision, because it's a sponsored money tournament, not a community organized event.
This is an absolutely retarded way to attract viewers to a tournament. TL's biggest strength is its community reputation. Are you saying we should just make decisions and never explain them, even if they are arbitrary and stupid (the Chris rule for example)? If we do what you suggest, that is effectively throwing away what we are building here with TeamLiquid. In fact, there are several posters who thanked us for a) keeping the thread open and b) being patient and understanding with explaining / refuting arguments. A lot of those people disagreed with us but still understood our reasoning and respected the way we went about it.
I'll give a similar situation to exemplify my point. In arms negotiations, the groups seeking to ban certain weapons constantly engage the United States and other military superpowers on the effectiveness of their weapons, challenging the effectiveness and sanctioned use of them.
They are often wrong in their arguments, or jump to conclusions because they have a pre-determined stance. They could just simply say, "People are dying. The decision is easy." Instead they argue this complicated military point that is not easily made convincing.
I'm saying you're incorrect in trying to combat the viewpoint of the community or whoever they may be here (vocal minority, whatever) by invalidating their argument by saying it's a vocal minority and they're incorrect.
Just say it's your decision and stick to it, should've made this thread locked to begin with. Arguing about it just extends the babble.
I'm sure you'd make a great communist dictator, but that's not how things work around here. I'm glad you aren't the leader or manager of anything because your viewers / community / employees would certainly hate this way of doing things.
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I suppose that Idra cant play TSL2 right?
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team;
I really expected a fair and clear use of rules.
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User was warned for this post: Keep your troll posts inspired by your reoccurring hate for Idra out of TSL topics.
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On November 17 2009 01:39 No_eL wrote:I suppose that Idra cant play TSL2 right? Show nested quote +He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene and is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team; I really expected a fair and clear use of rules.
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
Do you know what OR means? Its obvious that the rules would not be designed to keep idra out.
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ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =(
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is awesome32274 Posts
Sigh... if people just took some time to read the thread instead of jumping into conclusions and posting, we wouldn't need people repeating the same arguments over and over...
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I'm done arguing this because it's obvious that the larger point can't be seen by people too enraptured with their smaller argument.
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I really like the solution you guys came up with: let him play a liquibition (which has money involed too, i presume)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote:
ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =( You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra
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On November 17 2009 03:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote:
ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =( You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra
Yeah there is obviously a big relationship, but when did he ever stream (I might have missed it), share replays, blog about his Korea experience etc? I'm fine with Idra generally speaking, as long as he keeps his temper out of in-game chat. No one ever died of some well placed e-drama.
Anyways, of course there can be exceptions to rules but what matters is what they are based on. The relationship between TL and the rest of the foreign community is not so clearly defined in terms of who is "part of the foreign community". Some countries have big Starcraft sites of their own which might be more central for them than TL. Do we consider all foreigners part of the foreign community regardless of their TL presence?
Would another notable foreigner who isn't even registered/hardly ever is on TL (hypothetically let's say Brat_ok or anyone, doesn't matter), and atm residing in Korea playing with good koreans also be an exception to the rule? Where would you draw this hypothetical line? Just curious
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Braavos36375 Posts
On November 17 2009 05:05 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 03:12 Plexa wrote:On November 17 2009 02:18 No_eL wrote:
ok, i accepted the warning, but doesnt makes sense to me... keep out zergmin and let idra play tsl2 its very dissapointing, and its a very strange use of rules =(
I understand that many of the organizers and staff members are friends od Idra, but its not good maintain friendship outside the rules. Nor in politics, work or a forum.
Dont worry, ill not keep posting in this thread anymore. I dont want a permanent ban just for post my opininon =( You are incredibly ignorant of TL's relationship with Idra Yeah there is obviously a big relationship, but when did he ever stream (I might have missed it), share replays, blog about his Korea experience etc? I'm fine with Idra generally speaking, as long as he keeps his temper out of in-game chat. No one ever died of some well placed e-drama. Anyways, of course there can be exceptions to rules but what matters is what they are based on. The relationship between TL and the rest of the foreign community is not so clearly defined in terms of who is "part of the foreign community". Some countries have big Starcraft sites of their own which might be more central for them than TL. Do we consider all foreigners part of the foreign community regardless of their TL presence? Would another notable foreigner who isn't even registered/hardly ever is on TL (hypothetically let's say Brat_ok or anyone, doesn't matter), and atm residing in Korea playing with good koreans also be an exception to the rule? Where would you draw this hypothetical line? Just curious
I think Plexa means that our relationship with Idra isn't exactly one of happy friendship, and while we support his inclusion in TSL and his efforts in Korea, there's no way we're even remotely "good friends" enough with him to give him preferential treatment.
That said, we don't give preferential treatment to anyone no matter how close we are with them. TSL is a very big deal to staff and to the credibility of this site. There is a lot on the line here, for our site, future TSLs/sponsorships, and our place in the community for SC2. It's ridiculous to suggest that we'd risk so much just to give someone a bit of an advantage in a tournament. We don't care who wins, as long as the tournament is a success and enjoyable for the community.
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Netherlands13554 Posts
I love how people keep bringing up the argument that the TL.staff is somehow friends with Idra while that is absolutely not the case except for maybe a select few.
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Braavos36375 Posts
(And those few aren't running TSL)
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The problem with the staff just being nice and letting him play is that there is a real possibility he could win or knock somebody else out. In that case the question must be asked why is he playing even though he has a korean ip? Why was an exemption made? The argument for exempting the others mentioned is that they worked their way up through the foreign scene, tournaments, etc, and they are well-known in the community.
Whereas nong hasn't really worked his way up in the foreign scene. He speaks Korean and is going to be playing in Korean tournaments, he is essentially an amateur gosu. He will be living in Korea for an extended period of time. It becomes more difficult to exempt him and differentiate him from the many other Korean amateur gosus, who, if allowed to play, would dominate the tournament.
If he complied with the rules (was living in the US) there would be no issue.
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I think his Nongmin's response is very mature and non combat like.
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EPT
