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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
+ 3k because Idra won 3rd place in IEF.
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This is unfortunate. Allowing Nongmin to play would make the tournament better, and it is a shame to see him excluded. It is quite evident that a lot of people feel this way. I'm not in the habit of speaking for others, but I'm getting the impression that everyone would like to see him play except some of the competitors with a realistic shot at winning the tournament. The motives of these few elite competitors should be obvious, and while they are understandable, they do not consider the quality of the tournament, which is the most important thing.
I can understand that once rules are set in place, whimsically disregarding them for 'special cases' only leads to trouble. The rules are objective and open to little interpretation, but what I think most people in this thread have a problem with is how blatantly subjectively the rules were created. The second rule was created to let people like Idra and Ret and Rekrul play, which is fine, because just saying 'no Korea, no China, everyone else a-ok!' would exclude some worthy competitors who are foreigners by most people's standards. Good! I want to see those guys play. Why can't a rule be tinkered with a bit to let Nongmin into the mix? That way there wouldn't have to be a special exception because it would be a rule. "If you moved to a country with a pro-scene within 3 months of the start of TSL, you are eligible to play" "If you are Nonmingzerg, you are eligible to play" I don't know what it would be, but I'm sure there's one out there. It's just so frustrating that Nonming has less of an advantage than someone like Idra, but isn't popular enough, so he doesn't get a rule made for him. Everyone wants to see him play, the tournament would be better.....arrrrrrg! This whole situation is like the chicken salad sandwich scene in Five Easy Pieces.
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for me this feels like arbitrariness. a nicer phrase for a rule that ultimately says "let idra play but not nongmin".
i don't say this because i like nongmin (in fact he banned me from his stream ^^), but i just don't think this is right.
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On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote:
idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument...
How is it irrelevant lol
The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently.
Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham.
Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam.
I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider?
Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues).
There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 15 2009 23:56 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote:
idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument... How is it irrelevant lol The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently. Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham. Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam. I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider? Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues). There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
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haha, I'm not being dragged into this thread argument any further man, I just put in my two sense. I'm not sure why everyone is intent on arguing anyway, the rules they are using are very clear here and every single page is the TL staff literally re-iterating the rules... so they obviously aren't going to change.
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On November 16 2009 00:24 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 23:56 Foucault wrote:On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote:
idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument... How is it irrelevant lol The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently. Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham. Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam. I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider? Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues). There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
Yeah but foreigners play with koreans on b.net all the time, and there are a million replays out there of good korean players for everyone to study. People have LAN:s in pretty much every country and there are quite a few foreign tournaments too.
I'm just saying that I have a hard time seeing the Korean advantage you speak of unless a person is affiliated with a pro-team in any way. We see the vods of the games they see on TV, every single game. It's too weird to rule out an entire country just because it happens to have a large following of the specific "sport". My Beckham analogy comes to mind again
What positive effects exactly does growing up in a progaming environment have in your opinion? I'm talking about people not being affiliated with pro-teams in any way now.
Adversity? Apparently Estro loved Nony, I have no idea about Ret or Idras teammates. Yeah, it's a different culture and the foreign players have CHOSEN to go to Korea because they love playing Starcraft. No one is forcing them so don't make them into martyrs. Did people hate on Elky and Grrr, Rekrul, Legionnaire and Assem? Not to my knowledge, if anything they got an advantage by being foreigners because they stood out.
If you are sociable and nice to people, I can't see you having a problem in Korea unless you of course for some reason refuse to learn the quite simple korean language. Then it's your problem
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As far as Idra is concerned [some] people are afraid that Idra is a leech of foreign tournament prizes.
Hes got enough practice in a perfect enviroment to grab most of 1st prizes but not enough talent (or willingness) to achieve anything in korea.
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On November 16 2009 00:52 Foucault wrote:
Yeah but foreigners play with koreans on b.net all the time, and there are a million replays out there of good korean players for everyone to study. People have LAN:s in pretty much every country and there are quite a few foreign tournaments too.
I'm just saying that I have a hard time seeing the Korean advantage you speak of unless a person is affiliated with a pro-team in any way. We see the vods of the games they see on TV, every single game. It's too weird to rule out an entire country just because it happens to have a large following of the specific "sport". My Beckham analogy comes to mind again
What positive effects exactly does growing up in a progaming environment have in your opinion? I'm talking about people not being affiliated with pro-teams in any way now.
Adversity? Apparently Estro loved Nony, I have no idea about Ret or Idras teammates. Yeah, it's a different culture and the foreign players have CHOSEN to go to Korea because they love playing Starcraft. No one is forcing them so don't make them into martyrs. Did people hate on Elky and Grrr, Rekrul, Legionnaire and Assem? Not to my knowledge, if anything they got an advantage by being foreigners because they stood out.
If you are sociable and nice to people, I can't see you having a problem in Korea unless you of course for some reason refuse to learn the quite simple korean language. Then it's your problem
Uh, the advantage is that it's much more accepted by social surroundings if u spend a lot of time practicing sc. The general skill level is much higher so it's much easier to find better opponents, people talk about the game all the time without being looked at as total nerds since it's on tv all the time. The ability to understand korean language gives access to a ton of additional information. Just studying a replay is not enough, if you have other people in the replay talking about it ( of high skill lvl ofc) the discussion is much more useful. Again this is much easier to achieve since there are so many higher skilled players and clans. There are also more tournaments on and offline.
I'd say those are pretty big advantages.
And about the korean language being simple, this has to be a joke right? Learning spanish for an italian or english for a german is not that difficult because they are very similiar. Korean is something totally different and thus very hard and time consuming to pick up. Given a 12 hour training schedule they just don't have enough time to take many lessons.
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On November 16 2009 00:24 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 23:56 Foucault wrote:On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote:
idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument... How is it irrelevant lol The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently. Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham. Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam. I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider? Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues). There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
Don't you consider nongmin coming to the states at such a young age and for (four?) a few years a forgeiner handicap? I do.
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Why were half of my posts deleted?
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Braavos36370 Posts
On November 16 2009 03:20 domane wrote:
Why were half of my posts deleted?
None of your posts have been deleted.
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I don't understand why it makes any difference where Nongmin currently resides. If Nongmin where in the United States now, he could play right, but since he's in Korea he can't right. But the Nongmin in korea isn't any different from the Nongmin who was in the USA, hes still at the same level of skill. Can someone explain to me why he's being barred from playing; I understand those are the rules but nothings changed. He hasn't gained any advantage by moving to Korea; he's still the same 4 years of training in America isn't he; nothings changed but his ip location. I just don't get it
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Who cares...
The main thing is, TL is already talk about TSL 3!!!
xD How awesome is that? And we can (probably) see nongmin in that one. ^_^
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So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote:
So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
Watch this i can do the same thing.
Idra, the guy who has dedicated years to the foreign scene, and given exciting matches and thousands of replays to the community. On top of his dry humor which has given us hundreds of pages of threads to talk about, he was a great guest on TL Attack and gave games to community members before going to korea.
Or a guy who lived in korea most of his life and joined TL 3 months ago.
Pretty cool technique amirite?
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On November 16 2009 07:32 Severedevil wrote:
So... Nongminzerg, who is friendly and helpful, is trying to join the foreigner community from the Korean one. Idra, who is bad mannered and contemptuous, is trying to leave the foreigner community for the Korean one.
Which of these players should be rewarded and encouraged with special permission to enter a foreigner-community tournament with a hefty prize pool?
It's not about rewarding certain players though, it's about having a valid ruleset that works out well for all parties.
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On November 16 2009 00:24 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 23:56 Foucault wrote:On November 15 2009 14:38 Sc2ggRise wrote:
idra is a 100% separate argument that is irrelevant to the nongmin argument... How is it irrelevant lol The argument is based on some arbitrary notion that someone is automatically better at SC if they grew up in Korea. However foreigners that have played on a proteam in Korea for 2 years aren't a problem apparently. Like I said earlier, being born in England doesn't make you Beckham. Playing on a good team might make you but your birthplace doesn't. Idra has a much better advantage than nongmin; that guy isn't even on a proteam. I still don't understand Nazguls talk about "identity" and "ideology", those words seem misplaced and curious in this context but nevermind. What I don't get is why we have to make the division between the korean and the foreign scene wider? Why does it matter if you're foreign or korean? Shouldn't the deciding factor be skill levels? Meaning that a korean of a certain skill and not on a pro-team should be able to participate. What's the point of "foreigner only"? I don't see a viable reason for keeping it for people from certain countries but not others (except with lag issues). There's too much emphasis on where your birthplace is here. It's not about racism at all, but it is about arbitrary definitions on who is eligble and who is not, based on the notion that we should "look after" the foreign scene, and keep it separate from the korean. Why should we? I thought people wanted to come closer to the korean scene We make the separation because if you live in Korea you have access to a world that everyone outside of Korea doesn't ever see. There are many more tournament inside korea - both at the professional and amateur level. You probably don't hear about the amateur ones though - and that's because they're not as readily available as professional ones. Things like the barbara starleague and the west clan tournament are such examples (we know about those since they were streamed). There are also still starcraft tournaments held at various PC bangs around Korea - we don't have those kind of opportunities as a foreign community. Additionally, anyone wishing to pursue a progaming career inside of Korea doesn't have the same level of adversity that a foreigner does. The TSL was created with this in mind - we wanted to give more opportunities to the foreign community and develop Starcraft outside of Korea. Opening this up to Korea defeats the intention behind the TSL.
I guess "facing adversity" nullifies all the advantages a player gets from being on a pro team and playing against other pro gamers all day, as your job for a significant amount of time.
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Adversity? Try growing up in Compton: playing SC while your house is getting shot up is nothing to sneeze at. Escaping the dangers of the city and being molded into an internet tough guy is something that shall be celebrated, as he beat all the odds.
Well, at least that's the image that is conjured up in my head.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Kennigit/getrich.png)
