EPTI think I'd call it "trolling" lol. I'm gonna be sad not to see Nongmin play, but I see where you're coming from and I think Nongmin does too.
TSL Player Eligibility and Nongminzerg - Page 6
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skuj
United States302 Posts
I think I'd call it "trolling" lol. I'm gonna be sad not to see Nongmin play, but I see where you're coming from and I think Nongmin does too. | ||
Aresien
United Kingdom305 Posts
granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that? Heh, just had to highlight this. I know you said longstanding members, but surely the backlash you're seeing shows the dissapointment ^^. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:12 ketomai wrote: I agreed to that already. I'm just asking if Player W (nongmin) who isn't a long standing member of the community but happens to be fucked over by your rules right as it starts should get an exception too. It's not as if he doesn't have the contribution to back it up. If anything I find his contribution to TL more valuable than being a 'long standing member' who does not contribute anything. All I"m asking is for you to sympathize with nongmin, who doesn't deserved to be ditched twice by such faggotry of coincidences. We do sympathize with Nongmin, which is why we took several hours to discuss it, posted this thread, and recognized the unluckiness of his circumstances. While this might not seem like much, it isn't like we're cold-hearted people just banning him and never giving him another word. Plus, we actually said he could play if he lived in the US -- which is consistent with our reasoning so far. This alone should prove to you we have nothing against Nongmin. If he wants to stay in the US and play, that'd be great. Add to that the Liquibition offer, and its clear we aren't trying to drive him away or "fuck him over" in any way. Your point about which contributions are more valuable is largely subjective, so there's no need to address that here. | ||
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate. Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out. A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team) Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer. Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running. So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully. prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Since apparently l10f's post wasn't enough, here: 1 AND ( 2 OR (3 AND 4) ) Logic is not about how many requirements apply. AND means both must be true OR means at least one must be true Nongmin does not fulfill 3, thus he does not fulfill (3 AND 4) (false AND anything) is always false. Nongmin does not fulfill 2 either, so he doesn't fulfill (2 OR (3 AND 4)). It works out to (false OR false), which is false. Nongmin does fulfill 1, so it's: true AND false, which is false. Therefore Nongmin is not eligible to play. Idea fulfills 2, so he fulfills (2 OR (3 AND 4)). (true OR anything) is true. Idea also fulfills 1, so it's: true AND true, which is true. Idra is eligible to play. Although Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running, he will not be residing outside of Korea during TSL so he does not meet requirement 3. | ||
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lux[chavii]
Germany115 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Rek has been there longest but he blows so who cares  I feel like this is the point, though. Nongmin clearly doesn't and has a good chance on winning the tournament, which is why so many people care. I can understand that one wouldn't want to give the 1st prize (which is a lot!) to someone, who just recently joined the foreign community and you have doubts (is he already enrolled at that university? It sounded pretty set in stone when I read about it) that he will be for a longer time. After all I feel with Nong, since the community, which he has been part of (one way or another, you can't deny that) basically rejects him. Thus I am the more surprised, that he will continue streaming and providing A class games, which speaks for him for being a real great person. Thumbs up, Nongmin, we all (nearly anyways) hope you can participate in the next TSL tournament, however I have doubts about that. | ||
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SonuvBob
Aiur21550 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote: The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate. Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out. A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: *he did not grow up in South Korea OR *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team) Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer. Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running. So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully. prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
i fucking want with all my heart that nongmin SHOULD BE ALLOWED to enter this article gets my hopes crushed and dreams strangled =[ dude, relax. nongmin has agreed with the moderators and taken it easily. the admins agree together, and nongmin has consented, really theres no point in arguing. it's over, and even the person not allowed to play has accepted it. play yourself, relax, and enjoy the tournament. | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:15 Hot_Bid wrote: We do sympathize with Nongmin, which is why we took several hours to discuss it, posted this thread, and recognized the unluckiness of his circumstances. While this might not seem like much, it isn't like we're cold-hearted people just banning him and never giving him another word. Plus, we actually said he could play if he lived in the US -- which is consistent with our reasoning so far. This alone should prove to you we have nothing against Nongmin. If he wants to stay in the US and play, that'd be great. Add to that the Liquibition offer, and its clear we aren't trying to drive him away or "fuck him over" in any way. Your point about which contributions are more valuable is largely subjective, so there's no need to address that here. Then if you sympathize with him, why is there a need to capitalize on one small breach of the rules like not being geographically in a correct area during the few months of the TSL? Why is it that Idra (even IF he's a long standing member)/Rekrul/Legionnaire/Nazgul/ can transcend the important rule of having no major pro team exposure, while nongmin can't even over come being in the wrong place on the globe? All the other conditions are fine except for him physically being in Korea. Is being a long standing member that much of an advantage in bending the rules? | ||
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domane
Canada1606 Posts
What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank? Now onto more important stuff. On November 12 2009 11:07 Hot_Bid wrote: Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"? When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception. Nongmin has only joined the foreigner community very recently. He has not participated in any foreigner tournaments, leagues, or showmatches. While his livestream is a valuable and appreciated resource, one cannot reasonably argue that Nongmin is as much a part of the foreigner community as the other players who were granted an exception previously. When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?) It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing. | ||
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Thratur
Canada917 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote: Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. Well, I'm not sure that noogmin is Korean amateur so I wouldn't say that a TSL full of Korean amateur and a TSL with noogmin is the same thing... | ||
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Shivaz
Canada1783 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:21 domane wrote: Off-topic question (that means ignoring it is an option): What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank? Now onto more important stuff. Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"? When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?) It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing. He is A rank, and he started streaming August 30th this year. | ||
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jiabung
United States720 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote: Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. | ||
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SonuvBob
Aiur21550 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:21 domane wrote: Off-topic question (that means ignoring it is an option): What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank? Now onto more important stuff. Could you clarify what you mean by "very recently"? When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?) It seems to be a sensitive issue, so I believe it is best to clarify every little thing. Just over 2 months ago (and all his 13ish posts on TL are about his stream). We discussed it at length in MIR and decided that it wasn't enough to overcome the rule against Korean amateurs playing from Korea. | ||
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Waffles
Romania605 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote: That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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SonuvBob
Aiur21550 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote: That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. A player can play in the TSL if EITHER: Both need to be true for him to be eligible. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
I mean if the issue here is unfair advantage you should definately exclude Idra and Ret, seeing as they play in a proteam. It also makes no sense how foreigners in pro teams can play but koreans without proteams can't if the issue here is the unfair advantage. Adding the rule of being allowed to play in a proteam and participate as long as you weren't born in korea seems very arbitrary and makes me think other reasons are involved. What I'm getting from this is that Idra and Ret get to play because they will increase the popularity of the TSL by a lot, but nonming gets excluded because he's just another korean, which is the only way this whole thing makes sense to me. | ||
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jiabung
United States720 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote: both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. | ||
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