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On November 12 2009 13:25 Waffles wrote:
i feel like tl admins could have just easily avoided all this drama if they changed the eligibility to just plain old invites.
Then we'd just have a shitstorm over something else. =/
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On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me.
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER
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On November 12 2009 13:26 Kennigit wrote:
Is the logic really that hard to understand? I read it and it makes perfect sense.
makes perfect sense to me also
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sorrow just got owned
deleted all of his posts rofl
LLGW
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I feel its rather silly that people are trying to argue that nongminzerg meets the requirements in any silly way. It is clear that he fails to meet those requirements.
I find the reasoning behind the arguments to be rather silly though. They seem to be in place because a prominent progaming scene in a country would provide a great advantage to the people living in that country. As such, anyone who "grew up" in such a country and still currently living in that country are excluded, due to this obvious advantage.
Also, being part of a progaming team provides an extremely high advantage, and to avoid dealing with progamers or ex-progamers that have left the country with the proscene, they are also exlcuded. However, it is important to note that progamers are only excluded if they grew up in a progaming country.
This is where I feel the rules are unfair and fail to properly stand up for the reason of their existance. If the rules are set to minimize the advantages of those in contact with the proscene, surely we should exclude actual pros living in Korea?
So, either the creators of these rules are rather foolish in their failure to see this problem, or their goals are not 100% to prevent such an advantage. The creators of this goal had entertainment in mind, they wanted a tournament for the foreigners. Advantage or not, the rules are biased against Koreans. If the rules truly wanted to minimize the advantage of living in a proscene country, they should have had "Players cannot be part of a pro team" right at the top, as an absolute requirement. The way it is right now, growing up in continuing to live in Korea is more of a threat to the tournament than being an S-Class progamer (not that Idra is, but as the rules are if he somehow achieved Godmode he'd still be allowed.)
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anyway to just change the rules if you're part of a proteam or recieved progaming training to participate in tsl you have to be part of tl's community?
nvm
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On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me.
the statement is, he has to not live in korea AND not be a progamer to be eligible, you made it into
he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible
~K AND ~C // E
K AND C // ~E
go do your truth tables
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On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me.
edit: i finally understand.. sorry for being stupid.
i just want him to play so badly TT
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On November 12 2009 13:31 jiabung wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER AND NOT a PROGAMER nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER he only meets ONE HALF OF THE " AND" CLAUSE
omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
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On November 12 2009 13:21 domane wrote:
What was nongminzerg's highest iccup rank?
When did nongminzerg start providing his livestream to Team Liquid? (what year, what season, and if possible - what month?) On November 12 2009 13:23 Shivaz wrote:
He is A rank, and he started streaming August 30th this year. On November 12 2009 13:25 SonuvBob wrote:
Just over 2 months ago (and all his 13ish posts on TL are about his stream). We discussed it at length in MIR and decided that it wasn't enough to overcome the rule against Korean amateurs playing from Korea. Thank you both. I agree that two months is a short time.
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Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:24 nitd_kim wrote:
so let me get this straight...
the ONE and ONLY reason that nongmin doesnt get to play in the TSL is because for the duration of TSL, he will be residing in the USA
If he was anywhere other than South Korea, he'd be able to participate...
at the same time, Ret and Idra get to play just because they grew up somewhere without pro scene...
Growing up in South Korea = Magically better at SC than others and must be disqualified from participating in foreign leagues? Then TSL must think WCG is a joke and all the koreans should be banned from playing in WCG. or all people that grew up near a mountain with snow should be banned from participating in the Winter Olympics
why dont u call TSL - Teamliquid Fairness Starleague and only allow people that never played any RTS play to make everything "fair"
i find that its ridiculous to say that a person has an unfair advantage at playing starcraft just because they are in korea. if someone wanted to get good at something, they pursue it and master it themselves... not by watching proleague on a friday night at home.
You didn't read anything in this thread.
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On November 12 2009 13:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:31 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER AND NOT a PROGAMER nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER he only meets ONE HALF OF THE " AND" CLAUSE omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS
yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense.
i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
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growing up in korea means not a foreigner, is that hard to understand
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logic makes my brain hurt, can we just close this thread please?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
lol i can't tell who is trolling and who is just retarded.
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First, what explicitly does 'grew up in...' mean - what age/time range does it refer to? First of all, the years someone lives in Korea before Brood War was released - obviously those years don't count. And even early after its release, the scene wasn't significant. How much % of this time range from some time after Brood War's release, until today, do you require someone to live outside of Korea to count as "didn't grow up in"?
Rule 3 - okay, it seems to be worded as to exclude Korean amateurs, pro-gamers, as well as all who live in South Korea, fine.
Rule 2 - basically - this is an escape clause for those who don't qualify under Rule 3 (they're living in Korea at the moment) - and the way you wrote it, idra and ret are th ones benefit from this rule. Of course it's your tournament and you can choose who to play, but it's rather off-putting that this setup has been made to inconsistently allow a few exceptions.
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On November 12 2009 13:34 jiabung wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:31 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER AND NOT a PROGAMER nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER he only meets ONE HALF OF THE " AND" CLAUSE omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway.
np as long youre not trolling
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On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote:
Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong?
edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
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So... the issue is making sure Korean amateurs don't smurf into TSL. And 4 years of high school in the USA does not convince the staff that nongminzerg isn't a smurfing Korean amateur, because he's currently in Korea and there's no proof he really IS coming back for college in the USA. A Korean doesn't count as 'foreign' from Korea if he's not going to live outside of Korea for the long term, and nongminzerg's contributions are considered insufficient to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I guess an obvious question is whether or not nongminzerg has been accepted to a foreign university.
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EPT
