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On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote:
Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules
Yes, this the point I was trying to convey as well. I mean, as the rules are:
A Korean living in the US is allowed.
An American living in Korea is allowed.
An American pro living in Korea is allowed.
A Korean pro living in US is not allowed.
It seems that the rules are specifically tailored to allow non-Koreans to play regardless of progaming status or anything like it.
And I do agree, it is a Foreigner tournament after all, but I can't help but think that nong deserves to play due to the time he spent here and his supposed enrollment in an American university.
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this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak.
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On November 12 2009 13:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:34 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:31 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:12 jiabung wrote:
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.
Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.
A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)
Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.
Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.
So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.
prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play) Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER AND NOT a PROGAMER nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER he only meets ONE HALF OF THE " AND" CLAUSE omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway. np as long youre not trolling
the only troll post from sorrow i can decipher is his last post, which contained that bold print.
the others actually had some math shit to back it up
which i dont even get anyways, i failed math in high school, so who gives a fuck.
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On November 12 2009 13:37 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote:
Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong? edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further.
Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
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its not math its logic 101, sorrow failed to translate the original statement into logical notation
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On November 12 2009 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak.
Isn't a "korean" in the starcraft sense one that is part of the korean community? Nongmin, who has been living outside of the US for 4 years, obviously can't be considered part of the community or at least not fully because he, in those 4 years, could not participate in what ever events the community had to offer. Anyone who is not part of the Chinese or Korean community should be foreign (non professional).
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On November 12 2009 13:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:
its not math its logic 101, sorrow failed to translate the original statement into logical notation
yeah i know, but i honestly am fucking retarded when it comes to math
ur better using pictures since im a visual learner
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On November 12 2009 13:40 FallingTeardrops wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:34 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:31 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:29 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:28 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 12 2009 13:23 jiabung wrote:On November 12 2009 13:18 SonuvBob wrote:
[quote]
Ignoring the fact that your logic is wrong (AND means both need to be true), do you want the TSL to be made up of almost entirely Korean amateurs? This is supposed to be a tournament for the foreign community. That is exactly the point. AND means BOTH need to be true for him to be INELIGIBLE (living in S.Korea AND affiliated with a pro sc team.) BOTH ARE NOT TRUE, since he will not be affiliated with a pro SC team. Therefore, with the IF EITHER in place, (if either he grew up in south korea or he will be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team) nongmin is eligible since he will not be living in SK AND affiliated with a pro SC team.. both have to be true for him to be ELIGIBLE, not ineligible, it says so in the opening post, wait so he has to LIVE in south korea and be a PROGAMER to be ELIGIBLE?? yeah makes perfect sense to me. *he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER AND NOT a PROGAMER nongmin may be living in SK but he IS NOT a PROGAMER he only meets ONE HALF OF THE " AND" CLAUSE omfg, the opening never said he has to live in korea AND be a progamer to be ineligible, it said he has to NOT LIVE in korea and NOT BE a progamer to be ELIGIBLE, THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME STATEMENTS yes thank you.. the way you said it finally makes sense. i was arguing a dumb point anyway. not like he would be able to play if he met the rules anyway. np as long youre not trolling the only troll post from sorrow i can decipher is his last post, which contained that bold print. the others actually had some math shit to back it up which i dont even get anyways, i failed math in high school, so who gives a fuck.
All his "math" posts were just faulty logic, none of it was backing anything up.
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Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
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On November 12 2009 13:42 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this isn't about competitive environment or skill level or whatever, this is about trying to draw a border around what we call the foreign community. Its also true that koreans are a lot better at starcraft, but that's irrelevant. If you guys have better ways to classify foreign from korean then please speak. Isn't a "korean" in the starcraft sense one that is part of the korean community? Nongmin, who has been living outside of the US for 4 years, obviously can't be considered part of the community or at least not fully because he, in those 4 years, could not participate in what ever events the community had to offer. Anyone who is not part of the Chinese or Korean community should be foreign (non professional).
ok lol
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Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
thats stupid and irrational. theres a ladder, qualifier, and then the 16 man tourney, and if you've ever bothered looking at idra and ret's records vs foreigners they aren't non-koreans with superpowers who walk around beating other foreigners 100% of the time.
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On November 12 2009 13:42 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:37 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote:
Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong? edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further. Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
Is it now because he is a damn good player and new to the foreign community or because he is not physically present in a non Korean country while the TSL is being held? That is really confusing me.
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On November 12 2009 13:44 machinehead.. wrote:
Meh, the rules seem to be centered around making sure a ret vs idra final happens so there will be maximum viewers/hype, but not so much rules based around making sense. That's your prerogative, obviously, but trying to rationalize these rules is kinda silly. I'd just come out and say it, personally.
Idra will lose to the first zerg who knows how to make lings.
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On November 12 2009 13:42 SonuvBob wrote:
Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community?
Alright, I didn't realize they were before he left. Then what about now? Is he still a part of the korean community now that it's been 4 years since he was last involved with it? Is there a specific time period in which he must be cut from the korean community to default to the foreign community? If you based on past experiences then players like Ftact)Love can not compete either. You might even extend that to JF and Xiaozi, who were technically formerly part of China's BW Community. Where do you draw the line? Is 4 years not enough? IMO he should be foreign regardless of what he has done with the foreign community (his streaming is greater than people give him credit for though) by the fact that he can not be part of the Korean community.
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He's still becoming known to foreigners, he presumably lived in Korea for 14+ years, he was good enough to be offered something by KTF, he will be in Korea during tournament, and his iccup rank is A.
If administrators were to let nongminzerg play, there would be even greater discontent and anger (****ing catastrophe) than what we've seen in this thread.
Also, it might set a precedent for gosu Korean amateurs to enter in the future.
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On November 12 2009 12:09 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 12:03 WARMASTER.v13 wrote:
I say if the competitors all agree it is ok for Nongmin to play then ya'll should let him but all it takes is one person to say they wouldn't like for him to play then it is settled because it should be up to the players not just the staff holding the tournament.. Several participants have already said they don't want him to play.
ofc they dont want, they are scared
just let him play and if he comes into money, he has to donate 70-90% of it to UNICEF or something else. with that he would do something very good for the foreign community.
btw if i see idras behavior, i would say his puberty isnt finished yet and he (if he ever does) kinda grows up in korea, too
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look up idra and ret on tlpd and anyone can see that they dont roll over other foreigners.
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On November 12 2009 13:48 lux[chavii] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:42 SonuvBob wrote:On November 12 2009 13:37 ketomai wrote:On November 12 2009 13:34 PUPATREE wrote:
Come on guys, the line had to be drawn somewhere.
Anyone that's seen his stream knows that nongmin is really fucking good. remember though, this is a foreign community. TSL is THE foreign tournament. It would be terrible to have some Korean kid (no disrespect) come along, tear up the best players in Europe, and take the cake.
The Nong's going to be in Korea for this TSL, and will probably be in some dorm with shittynet during the next one. This is convenient for those who have to explain the why's to the community. It's a lot easier to point at ambiguous rules than to outright argue for segregation.
Koreans dominate StarCraft. This is no secret. Whether their secret powers come from their work ethic, progaming scene, genetics, high quality instant noodles or whatever, it doesn't matter. This is a foreign community, and it's staying that way. Argue about the fine print all you want, but an exception would have been made already if our minbong was wanted in the tourney.
Of course, if the decision really was based on bullshit factors like hours spent streaming, number of foreigner tourneys/showmatches participated in, longitude, and days involved with the community, then apologies for the misdirected post.
tldr imo the decision was about excluding koreans, not adhering to arbitrary rules That's not it at all because if we were going to limit how good the players in the tournament were, why have a competition in the first place? Once again, you can't just ban him because he is Korean. There is a correlation between being Korean and Skill in starcraft; being korean is NOT THE CAUSATION of being good at starcraft. The factor in between is the competitive environment availabe to koreans, and that is something nongmin does not have... Nongmin is therefore not able to take full advantage of the Korean community, so doesn't that make him by default a part of the foreign community? If not, where does he belong? edit: w/e, I give up since my last request was not addressed and it's futile to argue further. Nongmin will be playing Courage when he goes back to Korea. Before he left, he was offered test games with a pro team (which also means he was pretty damned good before he left). What else is there to take advantage of in the Korean community? Is it now because he is a damn good player and new to the foreign community or because he is not physically present in a non Korean country while the TSL is being held? That is really confusing me.
the later part
admins have already said that if he stayed in the US, he could play
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I understand where the admins are coming from, but I think they should make an exception for nongmin. I mean since progamers who contributed to the teamliquid/foreigner community are allowed to play, I think nongmin should be allowed to play too because of his contribution in the form of his stream.
He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play. About this rule, it is kind of ambiguous. I assume the admins will reserve the final decision to decide how much lag is too much, and that seems fine.
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On November 12 2009 13:50 Newguy wrote:
look up idra and ret on tlpd and anyone can see that they dont roll over other foreigners. Yeah but Idra and Ret have become like air to the community - so common and important.
EDIT: Even if nongminzerg was in the US during TSL2, I have deep doubts about whether he would be allowed to play.
I'm thinking internet riots.
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EPT
