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TSL Player Eligibility and Nongminzerg - Page 5

Forum Index > TSL2 Forum
518 CommentsPost a Reply
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l10f *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3241 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 03:53:41
November 12 2009 03:49 GMT
#81
Nvm he edited his post.
Writer
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 03:51:43
November 12 2009 03:50 GMT
#82
On November 12 2009 12:43 ketomai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 12:34 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?

Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?

Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.

We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.

If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.


Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?

If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.

Player X:
member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Player Y:
recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
November 12 2009 03:51 GMT
#83
a real shame
=/
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
tRi[T]oN
Profile Joined June 2009
United States181 Posts
November 12 2009 03:52 GMT
#84
If you really wanted a competitive tournament that wont produce the given one or two ppl to win (idra/ret) then you would make the exception so that you could have an overall more exciting turny.
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 03:55:02
November 12 2009 03:52 GMT
#85
I don't think TL staff's logic makes sense (in terms of fairness, not logic itself). And I think they've made it pretty obvious their intentions [what I think is favoritism] by crafting a set of rules to disallow nonming and allow Ret/Idra without having to say they are giving Ret/Idra an "exception" (the rule about not growing up in a location with pro SC allows Ret/Idra).

However, the fact is it's the TL staff's tournament, not the public SC community. They can do whatever they want even if the majority disagrees.

Personally I think the clearest and simplest rule should be to disallow anyone playing in Korea and any professional SC player. So nonming, Idra, and Ret would not be able to play (nonming being in Korea at the time of TSL and Idra/Ret having associations with proSC).
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
November 12 2009 03:56 GMT
#86
On November 12 2009 12:50 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 12:43 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:34 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?

Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?

Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.

We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.

If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.


Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?

If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.

Player X:
member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Player Y:
recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.


Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
November 12 2009 03:57 GMT
#87
I think what ppl are saying is it seems like a blatant way to exclude nonmingzerg and include Idra/Ret while avoiding having to tell us you're giving Idra/Ret an "exception".

It comes off as favoritism. But it's your tourney so you guys can do whatever you want.
Twilight Templar
Profile Joined April 2009
99 Posts
November 12 2009 03:59 GMT
#88
Too bad he can't play, oh well. Seems the admins have good reasoning for it anyway.

Now i'm sad.
dum dadi do dum dum dee do dee da
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
November 12 2009 04:00 GMT
#89
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
November 12 2009 04:01 GMT
#90
I think this is overall a good decision. He's a korean living abroad. May have been for a long time but he still grew up in the place where the SC pro scene was/is biggest.

IdrA/Ret/Rek etc.. they are non koreans who have moved to korea and been there for a very limited amount of time. Rek has been there longest but he blows so who cares
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
November 12 2009 04:02 GMT
#91
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.


Idra is an exception to the rules, so yes you're probably right.
Soli Deo gloria.
tRi[T]oN
Profile Joined June 2009
United States181 Posts
November 12 2009 04:02 GMT
#92
incontrol you simply dont want to get rocked so shh...
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 04:06:21
November 12 2009 04:05 GMT
#93
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.

If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?

REALLY???!!!!
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 04:07:07
November 12 2009 04:05 GMT
#94
On November 12 2009 13:02 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.


Idra is an exception to the rules, so yes you're probably right.


Actually under their new rules for TSL2, Idra isn't an exception. He doesn't violate any of the rules to make him ineligible. In this way TL staff doesn't have to say their giving any "exceptions" (whether it's their intention or not to go about doing this).

On November 12 2009 13:05 Kennigit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL.

If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL?

REALLY???!!!!



Ken: Unfortunately I think you guys would =(.
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
November 12 2009 04:07 GMT
#95
Then you don't understand anything we posted in this thread.
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
November 12 2009 04:08 GMT
#96
On November 12 2009 12:56 ketomai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 12:50 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:43 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:34 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?

Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?

Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.

We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.

If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.


Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?

If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.

Player X:
member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Player Y:
recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.


Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.

If our rules were too rigid, we'd not allow Idra or Ret or Naz or Rek or Legionnaire or anyone who set foot in Korea and even sniffed some pro-training. We "bent" the fairness rules for players who were a large part of the foreigner community and who fans wanted to see play in a tournament. We decided that Nongmin didn't qualify for this exception.

If its easier, just read the two rules as "no proteam players can play in TSL" and X Y Z players are granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that?
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
lac29
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1485 Posts
November 12 2009 04:10 GMT
#97
On November 12 2009 13:07 Kennigit wrote:
Then you don't understand anything we posted in this thread.


Sorry but the way you guys are wording things and your rationale makes it hard (for me at least) to think you're being fair. Yes I read everything. And I believe I've replied in a reasonable way. You guys think Idra is a important contributing member to the SC community (and under the new rules he isn't technically an "exception").

And yes, I realize this is your tournament so you guys can set whatever rules you want.
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 04:12:59
November 12 2009 04:12 GMT
#98
On November 12 2009 13:08 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2009 12:56 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:50 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:43 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:34 Hot_Bid wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:27 ketomai wrote:
On November 12 2009 12:17 ketomai wrote:
How does growing up in a place help your goals T.T. Your goal is to give players who do not have the opportunity of indulging in a pro scene like Korea's a chance to win something and compete. Nongmin has been in the US these last 4 years, and I doubt he was at the pinnacle of his ability to improve and benefit while he was in junior high, where as Idra is getting tons of chances as a CJ Pro to take advantage of all Korea has to offer. How does it take away from your goals to give Nongmin, who has never really had any chance to compete in the Korean scene, a chance to play?

Can you answer this and state your real goals and how Nongmin is against them specifically please?

Our goal is to provide a competition for the non-professional scene.

We feel that Idra and whoever else (like Rekrul or Ret or Nony), despite receiving Korean training, is still a large part of the foreign scene. Banning them from the TSL would a) hurt the TSL (because fans feel connected with them) and b) would unnecessarily punish them for pursuing something that already comes with a lot of hardship because they did not grow up with a pro scene in their country.

If you don't think these are our "real goals" then you simply don't believe what we say. I can't force you to believe us.


Alright, now can you please address why nongmin goes against those goals. Yes, he 'grew up' in a professional scene, but if you think about it, he only grew up there between 2000-2005, a time period in which he was 10-14 years old. Are you saying that the benefit he received when he was 10-14 (an age in which he most probably did not play SC seriously and was not old enough to compete in any events in Korea anyways) is enough to ban him? Banning Idra would hurt the TSL, yes, but it SHOULD be that you either would definitively ban both Idra and Nongmin, who both have 'exposure', or allow both to play, or you allow both to play (Idra as a foreign 'hero' and Nongmin because he does not go against the criteria to the magnitude that Idra does). My argument is going to be invalid because you will say that it's your tournament, your rules (which it is), but are you really going to throw nongmin under the bus like that for happening to vacation during the time period the TSL happens to take place, despite having little to no advantage over the average foreigner in terms of 'exposure'?

If its easier, think about it this way -- default rule is we ban both player X and Y for either being on a proteam, growing up/residing in a country with a proscene. Then we look and see if there's a compelling reason to allow an exception for one of them.

Player X:
member of foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Player Y:
recently joined foreigner community, not well known or recognized by fans, participated in 0 foreigner tournaments / showmatches

Our options are, 1) ban both, or 2) allow when there is enough reason to grant an exception. We're clearly doing #2 and we obviously believe that only Player X has enough of a compelling reason to be granted an exception.


Ok so you are admitting that the 'growing up' rule is tailored specifically for Idra. Can you not even bend the rules even slightly for nongmin, who now can't participate in neither any korean leagues nor the biggest foreign tournament? If he's not part of the foreign community yet, and he's obviously not part of the korean community, he really has no way to compete. He missed ASL due to coincidence and he's missing this TSL2 due to coincidence. Are the rules really so rigid that you can't even allow such understandable circumstances? We were all bagging on Kespa punishing the 'a' incident, and it looks like you guys are doing the same thing. I'm guessing you agree with having strict, never moving rules in place, which is why you made up that rule for Idra T.T. Oh well, I"m surprised nongmin is still willing to stream and accept it. If it were me I'd be infuriated.

If our rules were too rigid, we'd not allow Idra or Ret or Naz or Rek or Legionnaire or anyone who set foot in Korea and even sniffed some pro-training. We "bent" the fairness rules for players who were a large part of the foreigner community and who fans wanted to see play in a tournament. We decided that Nongmin didn't qualify for this exception.

If its easier, just read the two rules as "no proteam players can play in TSL" and X Y Z players are granted an exception because they have been longstanding members of the foreigner community and the tournament and fans would be very disappointed if they didn't play. How about that?


I agreed to that already. I'm just asking if Player W (nongmin) who isn't a long standing member of the community but happens to be fucked over by your rules right as it starts should get an exception too. It's not as if he doesn't have the contribution to back it up. If anything I find his contribution to TL more valuable than being a 'long standing member' who does not contribute anything. All I"m asking is for you to sympathize with nongmin, who doesn't deserved to be ditched twice by such faggotry of coincidences.
tRi[T]oN
Profile Joined June 2009
United States181 Posts
November 12 2009 04:12 GMT
#99
obviously there are plenty of people that want to see nong in this tournament, which u just stated is 1 of the reasons why you allowed the exception:
We "bent" the fairness rules for players who were a large part of the foreigner community and who fans wanted to see play in a tournament.


Yes he is a new member of the community he is becoming a large part of it, that is if you would let him.
jiabung
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States720 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-12 04:38:45
November 12 2009 04:12 GMT
#100
The way the rules are worded is very confusing. Therefore, I simplified the rules to preclude only Idra and Nongmin and discuss the validity of each player in TSL2, since these two players seem to be drawing the most debate.

Since both players presumably will not lag, I took the first clause out.

A player can play in the TSL if EITHER:
*he did not grow up in South Korea OR
*he is not currently living in South Korea AND not a PROGAMER (affiliated with a professional SC team)

Therefore, Idra can play in the TSL because he did not grow up in South Korea, although he is living in South Korea AND a progamer.

Nongmin should also be allowed to play in the TSL because although he will be living in South Korea during the TSL, he will NOT BE A PROGAMER during that time. (NONGMIN DOES NOT MEET THE "AND" CLAUSE FOR THIS RULE!!!) Therefore, although Nongmin grew up in South Korea, the rules specifically state that a player can play if they do not lag and are not living in South Korea AND not affiliated with a professional SC team. Nongmin will not be affiliated with a professional SC team, during the time the TSL is running.

So yeah, basically Nongmin is allowed to play in TSL2 based completely on the original OP rules.... I suggest the moderators reread their own rules very carefully.

prove me wrong.. (please don't cause i really want nongmin to play)
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