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8751 Posts
On February 13 2017 22:40 Cyro wrote:Nice to hear, Poopi :D Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 09:49 NonY wrote:What is your current build?+ Show Spoiler +
CPU
Intel Core i5 2500K @ 3.30GHz 36 °C
Sandy Bridge 32nm Technology
RAM
8.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 665MHz (9-9-9-24)
Motherboard
Gigabyte Technology Co. Ltd. Z68X-UD3H-B3 (Socket 1155) 34 °C
Graphics
VP2365WB (1920x1080@60Hz)
Intel HD Graphics 3000 (Gigabyte)
2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770 (Gigabyte) 32 °C
ForceWare version: 376.53
SLI Disabled
Storage
931GB Seagate ST31000524AS (SATA) 27 °C
55GB Corsair Force GT (SSD) 29 °C
256GB Crucial_CT275MX300SSD1 (SSD) 28 °C
1080p Why do you want to upgrade? What do you want to achieve with the upgrade?Higher SC2 fps (eventually would like a gsync monitor, but that's not part of this budget) Better stream quality. Seems like 1080p60fps is the high standard now What is your budget?Maybe around $1000 but I'm up for saving money if it makes sense What country will you be buying your parts in?US -------- So my thought was that I could turn my current PC into a streaming machine. I'd take the gpu and an ssd out of it and use those as parts for a new gaming PC. I'd buy a capture card and the rest of the parts new except the case (I have an old case to use) and go with a 2 PC setup, with the old PC using on-board graphics and the other ssd. Is that the smart thing to do here to maximize both SC2 fps and stream quality? I really don't know enough about how the capture cards work or performance hits involved (or not involved) with them, so it's hard to say here. For the sc2-running machine you should preferably have a 7600k/7700k with fast RAM (3000mhz or higher dual channel) and a CPU overclock, though a 7700k out of the box will perform relatively close to what it's capable of with OC. A 2500k in stream PC wouldn't be super comfortable for a 1080p60 stream due to the encoding performance. Twitch also still has some pretty tight bitrate limits AFAIK (~3500kbit/s CBR) which limit quality when pushing resolution and FPS, particularly for high motion or "noisy" scenes
The 3500 bit rate is just a suggested max. People do much higher (I've seen up to 6k) so 1080p60 looks good.
I did some tests at 1080p60 with just my webcam, not playing sc2, to see if frames were gonna drop etc. I waved my arms around a lot so that there wasn't any part of the picture that was static. It was stable. My thinking was that OBS using the webcam feed should be similar to OBS using the capture card feed. But I'm not sure if that's true. Obviously a very rough test but at least it didn't fail that.
So the relevant info seems to be:
(1) How well can the 2500k stream 1080p60 [might be possible but it's probably on the edge]
(2) How well can 7700k play SC2 and stream 1080p60 [I'm not going to buy gsync monitor immediately so there's no rush for concern about super high fps, and later I can buy monitor, capture card, and even build a new stream machine]
(3) How much better SC2 performance will the 7700k get over the 7600k [if it's significant, then I'd probably just go 7700k and worry about capture card later if I can't afford it immediately)
The choice I'm facing is basically: spend a little more on new PC and use a 1 PC setup or spend a little less so that I can also get a capture card and use a 2 PC setup. And then once I've decided on that, of course I gotta actually get each part figured out.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Didn't know about the bitrate stuff, that's nice to hear
If the only task if playing sc2 then a 7600k and 7700k at the same clock speed will perform basically identically. The 7700k is like a 7600k with added hyperthreading so it's beneficial for playing+streaming on the same system but sc2 alone doesn't apply enough CPU load across many cores to benefit from the extra cores/threads; it just needs the fastest cores possible.
They both overclock to around the same clock speeds but default clocks for the 7600k are a little lower than the 7700k if not overclocking.
Is the 2500k at stock or overclock?
A good test for judging encoding perform is to take a video of the content you want to stream (like sc2 gameplay) and set up an offline encode with similar settings to the livestream encoder. It will encode the video as fast as possible then. A 1920x1080 video might encode at 50, 70 or 100fps on 3 different CPU's, and from that you can tell that the 50fps CPU would fail to encode properly in realtime, 70fps would probably have trouble sometimes (cpu demand is somewhat spiky and it has to be fast enough to handle the unusually demanding parts) and 100fps would probably handle it great (lots of spare performance)
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8751 Posts
2500k was at stock. I OC'd it to 4k and did some encoding tests with HandBrake, using a 1080p60 vod of a progamer (so there was lots of screen movement) as a source and using encoding settings similar to OBS (veryfast, etc). Average encode fps was in the upper 70's in repeated tests. I also recorded some monitor captures with OBS at 1080p60 of me watching SC2 vods, and then I watched the video of that to see if it was smooth and it was smooth. So I'm feeling pretty confident that the 2500k can get the job done. I'm gonna put it back to stock and repeat the test just to see how the fps changes.
edit: ~68 fps at stock
So I'm thinking 7600k if it's going to be pretty easy to OC it. But if I plan to OC am I going to want to spend more on the motherboard and/or more on the fan? If so, does it get to the point where it'd be better to just spend the money on a 7700k at stock or with a mild OC that doesn't require more expensive mobo/cooling?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
OC requires a z270 motherboard but RAM over 2400mhz also requires z270 and gives a significant sc2 performance bump so that's worth it anyway
The highest clocked non-k CPU's turbo to 4.1 - 4.2ghz. Intel stopped shipping stock coolers (which were underpowered anyway) for the k CPU's which are clocked higher by default so they'd require a cooler as well. A k CPU and midrange aftermarket cooler is buying the difference from that ~4.1 - 4.2ghz max to about 4.9ghz with good voltage and temperatures
If so, does it get to the point where it'd be better to just spend the money on a 7700k
The main difference is HT (having 4 cores, 8 threads instead of 4 cores, 4 threads) which improves performance in a lot of well threaded workloads like video encoding, rendering, quite a few CPU-heavy newer games or running multiple CPU-demanding things at the same time (like live encoding while playing on the same system).
With the way that sc2 uses the CPU it's not a relevant performance factor (a 7600k @4.9ghz could give more FPS than a 7700k @4.8ghz when running sc2 alone)
http://i.imgur.com/dqsyont.png
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why people never consider using gpu for streaming? from an engineering point of view reencoding something already encoded using the cpu is a waste 
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Because GPU-based encoding sacrifices a lot of quality-per-bit for speed and quality-per-bit is highly valued for livestreaming
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On February 14 2017 23:28 Cyro wrote:
Because GPU-based encoding sacrifices a lot of quality-per-bit for speed and quality-per-bit is highly valued for livestreaming
because of upload speed limits? or for viewer's download limits?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Both, plus the load on the streaming provider (Twitch etc)
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Pretty unlucky to have posted right before Nony 
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8751 Posts
Sorry Scorch 
Well I've got a pretty good idea of my plan now but it's gonna be a bit before I'm ready to pull the trigger so I'm done soliciting help here for now. Thanks a bunch Cyro
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What is your current build?
(last upgrade: 2014)
CPU: AMD FX6300
CPU cooler: THERMALRIGHT True Spirit 140 BW
GPU: -none atm- (broken)
Motherboard: GIGABYTE 990FXA-UD3
Ram: G SKILL RIPJAW DDR3-1600 2x4GB
Harddrive: 5+yr old HDD with 200GB
Case: FRACTAL DESIGN Define R4 Arctic White
What is your monitor's native resolution?
FHD, 27inch
Why do you want to upgrade? What do you want to achieve with the upgrade?
GPU recently went bust and while i was looking for gpu, i am considering an overall upgrade if there is a good opportunity (price wise)
The goal with new build is
getting the best value for money in current market (duh...) (willing to wait if major update is coming soon for price drop)
1. faster reboot (atm using 1 HDD, SDD with HDD)
2. Stable and quiet build
2. blizzard game in FHD @ stable minimum 60FPS without worrying that my pc might burns into crisp in any second
(i dont have any experience with expensive pc/parts, dont even know what is technically possible)
3. (optional) dual screen mode (2xFHD, optional if supporting an extra monitor can be achieved with relatively small increase in price)
4. Room for future upgrade (especially if CPU&Motherboard upgrade comes into play)
What is your budget?
willing to get used part (ofc at my own risk)
for GPU + SSD: around 250 Euro
for overall build: around 600 Euro
What country will you be buying your parts in?
Austria
If you have any brand or retailer preferences, please specify.
none
Thanks a lot in advance for your response!
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Hey, I wanted to upgrade my PC and thought I'd come here for suggestions:
What is your current build?
Intel i5-2400 processor
Radeon HD6870 video card
8 GB Ram
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1920x1080 (2x)
Why do you want to upgrade? What do you want to achieve with the upgrade?
Basically, my parts are pretty old and I'd like to run games on somewhat higher settings and start streaming. I mostly play Overwatch, WoW and League right now.
What is your budget?
I'm willing to spend like $500 I guess? I'd imagine something around there is enough to upgrade things.
What country will you be buying your parts in?
United States
If you have any brand or retailer preferences, please specify.
Amazon and Newegg
So basically, I'm guessing I'd need to upgrade the video card primarily, and then the CPU would be good to upgrade as well. If I want a newer CPU, I'd have to buy a new motherboard though to get off the LGA1155 socket, right?
How much would just upgrading to a GTX 1060 3GB video card improve performance? Is something like that enough?
What should I do? If you need more in the way of current build stuff let me know (Power supply etc I'd guess?).
Also, I'm entertaining the idea of getting a 144Hz monitor, that would make the games look better and is more ideal for Overwatch too, right?
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France12911 Posts
On February 13 2017 05:46 Scorch wrote:I'm planning on replacing my 8 year old rig. I'm not up to date on hardware, so please help me find any flaws in or improvements for my build. + Show Spoiler +What is your budget?1100€ max, but I'd rather stay under 1000€. What is your monitor's native resolution?1920x1080 What games do you intend to play on this computer? What settings?Nothing special really. Games I'd like to play but can't on my old PC include Dark Souls 2&3 and Civ 6, plus whatever else might come up in the next few years. I don't mind playing on medium settings as long as I don't have to upgrade for a while. Although it would be nice to dabble in VR once the second generation comes up. What do you intend to use the computer for besides gaming?The usual surfing and office tasks, it will also serve as a multimedia center and perhaps for some software development mayyybe including the use of a virtual machine, but rarely if ever. Do you intend to overclock?No. Do you intend to do SLI / Crossfire?No. Do you need an operating system?No. Do you need a monitor or any other peripherals and is this part of your budget?No. If you have any requirements or brand preferences, please specify.It has to be rather silent, at least when not gaming. It will be standing in the living room next to the TV, and I want to stream content to the TV without loud fans bothering me. The PSU, CPU cooler, GPU and case in my build reflect this requirement. What country will you be buying your parts in?Austria or Germany. So here's what I was planning to get: Western Digital WD Red 1TB, 3.5", SATA 6Gb/sMushkin Triactor 500GB, SATAIntel Core i5-7500, 4x 3.40GHz, boxedIntenso Desktop Pro Kit 8GB, DDR4-2133, CL15EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB SC Gaming, 3GB GDDR5, DVI, HDMI, 3x DisplayPort MSI B150M Pro-VDHLG Electronics GH24NSD1 black, SATA, bulkScythe Mugen 4be quiet! Pure Base 600 black, sound dampeningCorsair RMx Series RM550x 550W ATX 2.4, semi-passiveThis would cost me around 1000€ including shipping.
I'll try to help but keep in mind I'm not as knowledgeable as others on this topic, so take what I say with a grain of salt!
It's kinda hard to know what could be improved upon because we have to click each link individually to see the price on the site where you'll be buying (the fact that I don't speak Austrian isn't really a problem since I can read the numbers and most components are well known).
About the build, from what I know:
i5-7500 is a good value processor especially for you since you don't seem to chase frames/want to overclock.
Afaik you might need to flash the bios in order for your B150M mobo to work with your Kaby Lake processor, so you should probably take a B250M one instead.
With the B250M mobo take some 2400MHz RAM, should be around the same price as your 2133. I don't know the brand of your RAM, I dunno if that's really a problem or not.
As for the Scythe Mugen 4, i guess you are afraid the custom cooler of the i5 will be too loud? There might be some less expensive cooler with around same noise level but this one seems quite silent from what I've read (was with older processors).
About the case, there is also the CM Silencio 550 around the same price, dunno which one is quieter tho so you could try to find some benchmarks? PB600 seems good tho.
PSU seems fine.
About the video card, I remember reading that the one you chose was one of the quietest ones, and it has good value, but
if you don't want to upgrade for a while, you should try to pick the 6GB version (should not be much more loud but you can check that easily), it's a bit more expensive but 3GB could really be too low for future games (it's kind of already in some games). edit: first price I see on french website for 6GB gtx 1060 is 280€, and first price for RX480 8GB is 240€, but I'm not sure how quiet they are while gaming and outside.
HDD, I guess the Red version at 5400rpm is for the sound as well? 7200rpm aren't really more expensive and beneficial speed wise but they are indeed probably too loud so the 5400rpm one is probably the wisest choice. If budget allows it you can try to grab a 2TB+ one since 1TB for media center is a bit low. edit: nvm saw what Red series is, it's for NAS so you'll use it for your media center, perfect choice then.
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Thanks a lot for your input. Good point about Kaby Lake compatibility, I hadn't considered that.
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Canada16217 Posts
On February 15 2017 23:03 Carnations wrote:
Hey, I wanted to upgrade my PC and thought I'd come here for suggestions:
What is your current build?
Intel i5-2400 processor
Radeon HD6870 video card
8 GB Ram
What is your monitor's native resolution?
1920x1080 (2x)
Why do you want to upgrade? What do you want to achieve with the upgrade?
Basically, my parts are pretty old and I'd like to run games on somewhat higher settings and start streaming. I mostly play Overwatch, WoW and League right now.
What is your budget?
I'm willing to spend like $500 I guess? I'd imagine something around there is enough to upgrade things.
What country will you be buying your parts in?
United States
If you have any brand or retailer preferences, please specify.
Amazon and Newegg
So basically, I'm guessing I'd need to upgrade the video card primarily, and then the CPU would be good to upgrade as well. If I want a newer CPU, I'd have to buy a new motherboard though to get off the LGA1155 socket, right?
How much would just upgrading to a GTX 1060 3GB video card improve performance? Is something like that enough?
What should I do? If you need more in the way of current build stuff let me know (Power supply etc I'd guess?).
Also, I'm entertaining the idea of getting a 144Hz monitor, that would make the games look better and is more ideal for Overwatch too, right?
For your budget you aren't going to be able to buy a cpu/motherboard/gpu. Your best bet is probably to put your budget into a better gpu and save for a cpu/motherboard upgrade in the future(if you upgrade to the latest platform you'll also need ddr4 ram)
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Alright.
I got a new video card (A GTX 1060 3GB). So you're saying if I want to upgrade my CPU, I'll have to get a CPU/Mobo and RAM as well? I didn't think of that at all.
My birthday is coming shortly so I could probably go over budget a little bit. I'll look around. One of the newer i5 processors should be enough right?
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Canada16217 Posts
On February 17 2017 09:16 Carnations wrote:
Alright.
I got a new video card (A GTX 1060 3GB). So you're saying if I want to upgrade my CPU, I'll have to get a CPU/Mobo and RAM as well? I didn't think of that at all.
My birthday is coming shortly so I could probably go over budget a little bit. I'll look around. One of the newer i5 processors should be enough right?
DDR3 ram is not supported on the latest CPU's, so you'd need DDR4 ram. Yes a Kaby Lake i5 would suit you well. You could also wait for Ryzen(AMD's new cpu line) coming very soon.
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Alright, just a few questions for now I guess...
Looking at the Kaby Lake processors, I would be choosing from the i5-7600 and the i5-7600k. My understanding is that the 7600k is mostly for overclocking and since I'm not wishing to overclock the processor, I should just get the 7600, right?
I've heard about AMD'z Ryzen processors but I'm not really familiar with AMD stuff in general so unless they're supposed to be really outstanding, I'd prefer to just go with a 7600 I guess.
Do you have advice for specific motherboards that might be good considering I'd probably be looking at an i5-7600 or i5-7600k?
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On February 17 2017 12:41 Carnations wrote:
Alright, just a few questions for now I guess...
Looking at the Kaby Lake processors, I would be choosing from the i5-7600 and the i5-7600k. My understanding is that the 7600k is mostly for overclocking and since I'm not wishing to overclock the processor, I should just get the 7600, right?
I've heard about AMD'z Ryzen processors but I'm not really familiar with AMD stuff in general so unless they're supposed to be really outstanding, I'd prefer to just go with a 7600 I guess.
Do you have advice for specific motherboards that might be good considering I'd probably be looking at an i5-7600 or i5-7600k?
You should get the 7600, because a motherboard that supports OC is roughly twice as expensive, or even more. And the extra price of the K processor, and the $50 dollars more for a more expensive mobo isn't worth the 10-15% performance gain on the CPU, when you consider you also need to spend $20-$30 for an aftermarket heatsink, and the K version is some $20 more usually.
From the research I've done and with how I've been following everything, I expect Ryzen to be 20%~ faster than Intel on synthetic benchmarks per dollar, but with lower IPC and lower clock speeds, for most gaming Intel should be superior until games start to become more parallelized.
I'd recommend something like this:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132871
Look at some $200-$300 motherboards if any of their features entice you. If you don't know what you'll need in a motherboard, chances are you wont need it, and this will be good.
Maybe you need more PCIE lanes for a super network card, sound card, future multi-GPU setup, more USB ports, etc etc. Just take a look if you're missing anything from there.
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Alright, thanks guys! Got my new monitor and GPU set up so I'll check that out and then probably go with your recommendations haha.
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EPT
