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On April 21 2013 17:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 08:24 [GS]PLACiD wrote:On April 21 2013 08:12 Cyro wrote:
You're multiplying your 450dpi to around 800 if you use >54% in sc2 sens.. The feeling will be exactly the same if you play with that sens properly, instead of using bad multipliers (same mouse movement to cross screen), only you don't have messy mouse sens because of upscaling First of all I'm using 360, which makes me wonder if you've even read my comment properly. And no, the feeling won't be exactly the same, I know this as a fact since I've already tried this in numerous ways with various dpi values and various mice, the feeling is definitely different when you use higher dpi values and it's annoying. Btw, you can claim I have a messy mouse sens because of upscaling, but at least I won't get annoyed at the feeling of the sensitivity, + it works for me, so whether it's "messy" or not is irrelevant. I got it wrong by 1 step because i didn't go back and check the comment again, because i knew what you said. Why are you using ~80% sens in starcraft 2? It's a DPI multiplier you shouldn't be using, if you want X sens, then set X sens, not Z*Y for the same sens as X but in a messed up way And to the guy saying 1600 feels too slow for some tasks - get used to it, play some fast maps on Osu, maybe even lower it - try to establish muscle memory, perfect mechanics and micro i can't see more than ~1k or so used - more DPI is a handicap on accuracy but 800 won't limit what you can do - I am only using more than 360/450 now because that's low enough to negatively affect performance trying to push >250apm, if you're having trouble with 1600, you just need to get used to it, lower, or establish better muscle memory
Clearly there's no point in arguing with you, seeing you just disregard what I said about higher dpi values. You can be geeky all you want with your X's & Z's & Y's, it doesn't matter when it doesn't feel comfy. The only mouse (and I'm skinned atm so I won't be getting it for another few months) that I might consider playing at 1150 dpi with is the Zowie EC, I've had one before and it's one of the very few mice that somehow doesn't annoy me when I use higher dpi values but with the sensei raw it's a pain.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I don't understand your argument - you said you are using 82% sens in SC2 right? That means your DPI is being multiplied by around 2.0. Your 350 "dpi" will actually move 600+ "dots per inch" because it's being multiplied, so you have the same sensitivity as setting that DPI directly, instead of interpolating it with bad settings from a lower sensor resolution
I am not arguing against your sensitivity, but you are achieving the sensitivity (pixels crossed per inch of mouse moved, distance of mouse movement to cross screen) in the wrong way. I don't think i am disregarding anything, you just cant understand what i am saying
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On April 21 2013 17:55 Cyro wrote:
I don't understand your argument - you said you are using 82% sens in SC2 right? That means your DPI is being multiplied by around 2.0. Your 350 "dpi" will actually move 600+ "dots per inch" because it's being multiplied, so you have the same sensitivity as setting that DPI directly, instead of interpolating it with bad settings from a lower sensor resolution
I am not arguing against your sensitivity, but you are achieving the sensitivity (pixels crossed per inch of mouse moved, distance of mouse movement to cross screen) in the wrong way. I don't think i am disregarding anything, you just cant understand what i am saying
As a matter of fact I can, you just don't seem to understand that whatever it is, there's a different feeling to it. Which has been my point from the beginning. Sure, it's being multiplied in-game, but it still really does feel different when I actually do put it on 810 dpi. It might be placebo, and even if it truly is nothing but a placebo, it's definitely an annoying one.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Yea, there's a different feeling, because you are interpolating from a lower resolution (set dpi) and can't select a lot of the pixels on your screen. Of course it feels different, it's really bad
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As I understand it.. different mice/sensors can provide a different response even if they are set to the same dpi setting and a mouse might also behave differently depending on the setting.. and I mean different beyond just the perceived "pointer speed".
So even though I would also suggest you tryout the setting that gives you the desired "sensitivity" without the need for a weird (and potentially bad) multiplier, experience tends to outweigh changing settings all the time and perhaps your mouse sensor really does perform better at the dpi value you are currently using.
If that outweighs having to multiply the mouse input is another question.. but do as you please, great mouse control is after all not a requirement for playing high level starcraft (at least I don't think so).
[edit]: oh and if you do change your settings you really have to just stick with them for a while, if the new setting is different that means you should be expecting to perform worse at first until you adjust to it, even if the new setting itself is superior.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Yea, it can behave differently, different dpi's can be better if there is a legitimate reason to use them, but 8 or 9 times out of 10 it's better to use 1:1 in windows and sc2 (6/11 and 51-54%) and use DPI to adjust, and also:
I think DPI should be used as the measure of sensitivity - like if you move the mouse 1 inch and it moves 1000 pixels, then you have 1000 true DPI - not just what it says in the driver or on the mouse, because that's the only really universal way to compare.
1000 true dpi is always 1000 pixels moved for 1 inch of movement
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Yup I agree with Cyro, I too find it annoying that I have to ask people for their resolution, their ingame settings and their dpi to compare sensitivity.
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is enhance pointer precision actually that bad? ive never used a mouse without it, and after trying it a bit, my mouse suddenly felt so slow that i had to up the dpi to 2400 for it to feel "ok". unfortunately my mouse dpi can only be adjusted in 600 intervals so it was either 1800 or 2400 and 1800 was too slow. what exactly are the downsides of pointer precision? btw, with pointer precision i use 1200 dpi
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On April 21 2013 20:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:
is enhance pointer precision actually that bad? ive never used a mouse without it, and after trying it a bit, my mouse suddenly felt so slow that i had to up the dpi to 2400 for it to feel "ok". unfortunately my mouse dpi can only be adjusted in 600 intervals so it was either 1800 or 2400 and 1800 was too slow. what exactly are the downsides of pointer precision? btw, with pointer precision i use 1200 dpi EPP uses different scaling multipliers and is directly proportional to how fast you are using your mouse. Read this for more: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#i-iii
And, no EPP is not the bane of all existence. It is a preference, but you have to understand that using acceleration is going to make your learning curve for your mouse sensitivity, whether it be what you have now or when you switch mice or settings, much longer and more difficult to adjust to. You should try not using EPP for a while (as in a week at the very least) because with acceleration disabled it is much easier to predict how your mouse is going to operate (as its always the same). The only gamers that I know of that like using acceleration (occasionally) are Quake players, but they are a somewhat rare breed and have more options open to them anyway (like in game settings).
Edit: The caveat with acceleration in planar environments is that you can cause pixel skipping if you can hit those ips, and pixel skipping in these environments can be a real issue, unlike fps games that operate entirely differently.
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On April 21 2013 20:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:
is enhance pointer precision actually that bad? ive never used a mouse without it, and after trying it a bit, my mouse suddenly felt so slow that i had to up the dpi to 2400 for it to feel "ok". unfortunately my mouse dpi can only be adjusted in 600 intervals so it was either 1800 or 2400 and 1800 was too slow. what exactly are the downsides of pointer precision? btw, with pointer precision i use 1200 dpi
I had the same experience at first. I used Logitech's acceleration on "Low" since MS DOS 5.0 on a three button ball mouse and changed after ten years of playing Doom and Quake. The downsides only cropped up playing stuff semi-pro in online leagues and on LAN tournaments where you can't simply say you don't want to play on a day where your mouse aim is off. That's where mouse acceleration was bad for me. Sometimes I had a day where my hand was slow, I couldn't do anything about it, and acceleration means your mouse sensitivity is tied to your hand speed. On other days, I felt I was particularly on the ball and my hand was faster than normal, again giving problems.
Trying to play with no acceleration was a serious headache, I think it took months until I felt confident in my mouse aim, but it really helped with those days where you can't hit shit. If you don't feel you have that problem, then don't change. There were always people playing with acceleration that were playing beautiful at all times, never having problems like me.
Note: I don't actually know how Microsoft's enhanced pointer precision compares to Logitech's mouse acceleration options.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Enhanced pointer precision is a very strong negative+positive acceleration, if you are used to it on and turn it off, then moving your mouse slowly will seem to move the cursor far too fast, and moving the mouse fast will seem to move the cursor far too slow after it is disabled
You can get used to both, and really having it off is far superior option
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ok well ive had a read around other places regarding this and the general consensus is for games like starcraft turning epp off is a must. what are your thoughts on games like dota however? some people seem to think that for dota it isnt as important because you require less precision in comparison to starcraft.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Well it's kinda just flat out worse on a decent quality mouse, there's some use for acceleration but EPP is a very questionable implementation of it (it's designed for making random old 400dpi mice usable on big screens for computer illiterate people.. not competitive gaming)
So you're talking about handicapping yourself, because you don't want to learn otherwise. I don't really like doing that, i used EPP and 3200dpi a few years ago.. Then turned EPP off, then went 3200dpi to 450dpi over a week or so. Never did anything better for mouse accuracy and skill, it's amazing the kind of returns it gives you, makes you better in ways you would never have thought you were missing.. 450 is a touch low though
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On April 21 2013 18:25 [GS]PLACiD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:55 Cyro wrote:
I don't understand your argument - you said you are using 82% sens in SC2 right? That means your DPI is being multiplied by around 2.0. Your 350 "dpi" will actually move 600+ "dots per inch" because it's being multiplied, so you have the same sensitivity as setting that DPI directly, instead of interpolating it with bad settings from a lower sensor resolution
I am not arguing against your sensitivity, but you are achieving the sensitivity (pixels crossed per inch of mouse moved, distance of mouse movement to cross screen) in the wrong way. I don't think i am disregarding anything, you just cant understand what i am saying As a matter of fact I can, you just don't seem to understand that whatever it is, there's a different feeling to it. Which has been my point from the beginning. Sure, it's being multiplied in-game, but it still really does feel different when I actually do put it on 810 dpi. It might be placebo, and even if it truly is nothing but a placebo, it's definitely an annoying one.
Sounds like a placebo. You’re using a Sensei which has an Avago 9XXX sensor. This sensor has lots of native steps which are a multiple of 90. Both, 360 and 900 are a multiple of 90 and therefore should feel the same.
82 % in SC 2 equals a multiplication factor of 2.5 which results in pixel skipping and inconsistencies. It doesn’t get worse. ^^
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i use a sensei raw with 6/11 win, 51%sc2 and 1080dpi.
feels perfect for me.
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G400 800dpi and 6/11 mouse speed on windows, mouse speed disabled on sc2. Feels best for me.
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G9X 2000 DPI 6/11 and no mouse speed in starcraft. I dunno I tried to play with lower sensitivity but it doesn't feel right at all. Everything just feels so sluggish when I put it below 1800.
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Sensei, 1100 DPI, 6/11, 52%
Works like a charm. Used to have a bit over 2000 DPI, but I wanted to get better accuracy so I forced myself to get used to lower sens.
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On April 22 2013 00:02 blueslobster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 18:25 [GS]PLACiD wrote:On April 21 2013 17:55 Cyro wrote:
I don't understand your argument - you said you are using 82% sens in SC2 right? That means your DPI is being multiplied by around 2.0. Your 350 "dpi" will actually move 600+ "dots per inch" because it's being multiplied, so you have the same sensitivity as setting that DPI directly, instead of interpolating it with bad settings from a lower sensor resolution
I am not arguing against your sensitivity, but you are achieving the sensitivity (pixels crossed per inch of mouse moved, distance of mouse movement to cross screen) in the wrong way. I don't think i am disregarding anything, you just cant understand what i am saying As a matter of fact I can, you just don't seem to understand that whatever it is, there's a different feeling to it. Which has been my point from the beginning. Sure, it's being multiplied in-game, but it still really does feel different when I actually do put it on 810 dpi. It might be placebo, and even if it truly is nothing but a placebo, it's definitely an annoying one. Sounds like a placebo. You’re using a Sensei which has an Avago 9XXX sensor. This sensor has lots of native steps which are a multiple of 90. Both, 360 and 900 are a multiple of 90 and therefore should feel the same. 82 % in SC 2 equals a multiplication factor of 2.5 which results in pixel skipping and inconsistencies. It doesn’t get worse. ^^ No he's right, that particular sensitivity will have a different feeling in that the granularity of it ends up making the overall experience different, though I would agree with you both that using a setting where you are always pixel skipping and on an inconsistent step is pretty sub-optimal to begin with.
@ [GS]PLACiD, there are more considerate ways of getting your point across, so try to be less aggressive on TL if you can.
On April 21 2013 22:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:
ok well ive had a read around other places regarding this and the general consensus is for games like starcraft turning epp off is a must. what are your thoughts on games like dota however? some people seem to think that for dota it isnt as important because you require less precision in comparison to starcraft. Dota is an RTS just as starcraft is, so movement is still registered on a flat plane. e.g. the same principles apply. This would be the same for C&C, or LoL, or CoH, or whatever top down and planar environment you are interacting with. FPS and view matrices are the only place where there are major differences and allowances for more flexibility.
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On April 22 2013 08:13 wo1fwood wrote:
… that particular sensitivity will have a different feeling in that the granularity of it ends up making the overall experience different …
I cannot fathom that someone chooses inconsistent skipping because he cannot cope with a different granularity. So please, [GS]PLACiD, tell me it indeed was a placebo effect. 
By the way: Have you tried out 810 CPI?
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EPT
