On January 05 2024 06:24 ejozl wrote: ByuL is a very forgettable player for me. He didn't win anything, his biggest achievement is trying to be SoO? He was very hyped, beeing a Kespa player, but I was never very impressed. Meanwhile Trap and PartinG are actual legends. Trap is arguably the best Toss of LotV, though people don't care about Toss players in this installment. And PartinG had 10 ro16 Code S in a row, when gsl was the most competitive. He contributes enormously to the meta. He has been the best player at different times with crazy peaks. And he has been relevant in all of the 3 installments.
ByuL's legacy is that he is the best muta Zerg in StarCraft II history alongside DRG. He played some of the purest muta/ling/bane vs bio you'll ever see in 2015 and was one of the best Zergs at battling mech during his peak. Sadly, ByuL really struggled in Lotv because mutas were useless in 2016. But, the moment they became viable, ByuL immediately became a top 10 player in the world. That's how good he was with the unit. As far as Zergs go, he's an icon in his own right.
On January 05 2024 06:24 ejozl wrote: ByuL is a very forgettable player for me. He didn't win anything, his biggest achievement is trying to be SoO? He was very hyped, beeing a Kespa player, but I was never very impressed. Meanwhile Trap and PartinG are actual legends. Trap is arguably the best Toss of LotV, though people don't care about Toss players in this installment. And PartinG had 10 ro16 Code S in a row, when gsl was the most competitive. He contributes enormously to the meta. He has been the best player at different times with crazy peaks. And he has been relevant in all of the 3 installments.
ByuL's legacy is that he is the best muta Zerg in StarCraft II history alongside DRG. He played some of the purest muta/ling/bane vs bio you'll ever see in 2015 and was one of the best Zergs at battling mech during his peak. Sadly, ByuL really struggled in Lotv because mutas were useless in 2016. But, the moment they became viable, ByuL immediately became a top 10 player in the world. That's how good he was with the unit. As far as Zergs go, he's an icon in his own right.
Spoken like a true archivist, and 100% on the money
1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
2) Artosis weighs in on the Protoss thing!
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
On January 06 2024 19:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: 1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
I disagree, Stats for the first 2 years of LotV was definitely the most consistent top player and had the highest number of top finishes, and even in 2018 was the third wheel behind Maru and Serral. Whether that's still relevant to today's environment is questionable though, as it was on a completely different balance patch.
Trap also got really unlucky that he couldn't replicate his success in the tier 1 event, if he had won the GSL finals against Dark, his streak would have gone down in history as one of the most dominant streaks of any player ever
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change.
The part of Artosis' argument that he didn't want to touch was the part that Protoss' design is offensive focused, (whereas Zerg is more defensive), and that Blizzard has SPECIFICALLY targetted turtley Protoss play with numerous balance changes because defensive Protoss play always ends up in one specific spot: mass Carriers. The community doesn't WANT mass Carriers. Tournaments don't want mass Carriers because it fucks with their scheduling and it's dreadfully boring to watch.
So defensive Protoss play styles have been specifically targetted over the years to keep them from becoming the norm because we don't want mass Carriers to be the meta way to play the race, but because of the way that Protoss is designed on the ground (around Warp Gate) we won't have a defensive playstyle that focuses on ground based armies emerge from the meta and stick around for any period of time because Protoss armies are not designed around LOTV maps and economy.
So Artosis isn't wrong, in the points he brings up, but his argument is incomplete because he doesn't address the WHY we dont see more defensive Protoss players in the game right now. It's not a simple matter of "well more players simply need to adopt this playstyle philosophy" because it's been specifically targeted to not work.
I think Artosis' take is a pretty good one--though I think it's a little overstated when it comes to SC2's whole lifespan. Protoss certainly used to win especially weekend LANs and World Championships on the back primarily of aggression. But I think it's fair to say that the current "era" of SC2 has been defined by these rock-solid GOAT players who excel at defense and macro even while also throwing in cheese regularly; and certainly that same era has seen Protoss gradually falling off from being competitive.
As a basic theory too it explains very well and succinctly why there are so many Protoss players who excel at lower levels and even in early rounds of tournaments but fall off at the top. I think he's very right that it's not even a matter of pure skill, but a matter of two different style- and skill-sets. The optimal practice and play for even a bit below the top is just different from optimal practice and play for the very top, and I think that's a very important piece of the puzzle. That difference I think isn't just a pure matter of defense or offensive but also of high-risk/high-reward styles as opposed to more redundant styles.
Of course, the normal thing that happens with the top players is that they at some point get good enough that they can make that transition to playing optimally for the top while still being generally good enough to beat everyone below them. Maru, Serral, Reynor, Byun, and Clem all have in common that they started out being known as cheesy or aggressive players and then transitioned their practice and style and skillset to being great all-arounders. One might even argue that that's the normative pattern for great players in SC2 generally. So the question still remains why so very few Protoss players have ever made that transition; it can't just be because they came up playing aggressively.
It's at that point one could start arguing that Protoss is in some way just more generally fragile and hard to play "immaculately" in this rock-solid way. Harder isn't impossible; but it's definitely notable in my mind that even the top players Artosis names could come off as rather shaky at times. Trap played a more defensive style, but he still died a lot to random Raven pushes and mine drops and things like that. Weirdly maybe Zest felt the least fragile of any Protoss I've seen; I think he had a real idea of how to craft builds and styles to make games more "stable" and redundant even if they sometimes felt less sharp. One could of course say similar things about Stats. And hell, even the herO style was so successful in large part because even if it was a little more aggressive it wasn't just cheese and helped Protoss defense by keeping battles on the other side of the map and allowed Protoss to win in a grindier way that wasn't just predicated on making or not making a single mistake.
So overall while I don't think it really explains (let alone justifies) Protoss not winning tournaments, I think it's some helpful theorycrafting not just for why Protoss isn't winning, but also for how you might make Protoss more competitive at the top level, by buffing/rewarding things that are used more defensively or in more redundant styles. Yet another reason why the super battery nerf is one of the worst changes of all time.
On January 06 2024 19:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: 1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
I disagree, Stats for the first 2 years of LotV was definitely the most consistent top player and had the highest number of top finishes, and even in 2018 was the third wheel behind Maru and Serral. Whether that's still relevant to today's environment is questionable though, as it was on a completely different balance patch.
Trap also got really unlucky that he couldn't replicate his success in the tier 1 event, if he had won the GSL finals against Dark, his streak would have gone down in history as one of the most dominant streaks of any player ever
Stat's 2016-2018 is almost as good as Dark's entire career when looking at the number of finals reached in GSL/WC Type events
On January 06 2024 19:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: 1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
I disagree, Stats for the first 2 years of LotV was definitely the most consistent top player and had the highest number of top finishes, and even in 2018 was the third wheel behind Maru and Serral. Whether that's still relevant to today's environment is questionable though, as it was on a completely different balance patch.
Trap also got really unlucky that he couldn't replicate his success in the tier 1 event, if he had won the GSL finals against Dark, his streak would have gone down in history as one of the most dominant streaks of any player ever
Stat's 2016-2018 is almost as good as Dark's entire career when looking at the number of finals reached in GSL/WC Type events
On January 06 2024 19:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: 1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
I disagree, Stats for the first 2 years of LotV was definitely the most consistent top player and had the highest number of top finishes, and even in 2018 was the third wheel behind Maru and Serral. Whether that's still relevant to today's environment is questionable though, as it was on a completely different balance patch.
Trap also got really unlucky that he couldn't replicate his success in the tier 1 event, if he had won the GSL finals against Dark, his streak would have gone down in history as one of the most dominant streaks of any player ever
Stat's 2016-2018 is almost as good as Dark's entire career when looking at the number of finals reached in GSL/WC Type events
*I could be very wrong about the Dark numbers, but adding teams to a player's liquipedia makes sorting through results so much less enjoyable.
Actually Stats even made 3 wc finals - vs soO, vs TY and vs Serral. Sadly didn't manage to take one
You are correct, which makes what Stats did even more impressive. I opted not to include the 2019 event since I wanted to stick to a three year peak. But, Stats was damn good no matter how you slice it.
Some interesting recent discussion for sure, not much to disagree with!
I think Zest, as MC before him were not always the best players picking Protoss, but perhaps the best, most influential players at discovering, shaping and running with what the race’s strengths and weaknesses were. sOs to an even more madcap degree at times.
It would be a stretch to say a Stats, who maybe is a more mechanically skilled exponent of StarCraft, is stylistically bringing a knife to a gunfight. They can make it work, and have although there are periods where it’s not especially effective due to patches/metas etc. I’d say the relatively recent past is one where Protoss feels especially fragile playing a defensive macro kind of game.
On January 06 2024 19:56 ScrappyRabbit wrote: 1) Re: ByUL: His SSL Semifinals G7 (G5?) vs. Innovation that went to full split-map mech turtle, with Inno in control the whole game until he FORGOT LEVEL 3 ARMOR, will always be a legendary one.
He makes good points, and I think stops short of fully going for it -- his big point is that herO, Parting, and Classic (to an extent) were always a bit overrated and not as good as Zest (who was his own thing), and Trap, Stats, and Rain, with the latter three being the best defensive/macro Protoss players of all time and, as Artosis puts it "guys who were legit best in the world candidates."
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Personally, I would call Zest the best Protoss of all time because he was the best at using Protoss' greatest strength, its versatility, and using it to constantly stay a step ahead of his opponents by being on the absolute bleeding edge of the meta. If Rain had stuck with SC2, it could be a different story.
I disagree, Stats for the first 2 years of LotV was definitely the most consistent top player and had the highest number of top finishes, and even in 2018 was the third wheel behind Maru and Serral. Whether that's still relevant to today's environment is questionable though, as it was on a completely different balance patch.
Trap also got really unlucky that he couldn't replicate his success in the tier 1 event, if he had won the GSL finals against Dark, his streak would have gone down in history as one of the most dominant streaks of any player ever
Stat's 2016-2018 is almost as good as Dark's entire career when looking at the number of finals reached in GSL/WC Type events
*I could be very wrong about the Dark numbers, but adding teams to a player's liquipedia makes sorting through results so much less enjoyable.
I knew I was opening myself up when I put Dark in a GOAT-adjacent discussion. Stats was definitely impressive, super-impressive, during his peak, but at the end of the day we're talking about 1 SSL win and 1 GSL win. This is your Protoss GOAT? In some ways, Stats always being RIGHT THERE but never able to make it to the point where he was winning tournament after tournament hits on the crux of what we're talking about here -- there have been and are a lot of really great and really successful Protoss players, but when we're talking about the **absolute** top of the mountain they just aren't there in the same way. I would agree that the overall design of Protoss encourages more aggressive play, especially with the warp-in mechanic and the unmatched variety in the early/early-mid game, and the very very very best players seem to be the ones who can consistently thrive in late game with more "one size fits all" builds (with bespoke builds mixed in at key times in a Bo5/Bo7, of course.)
I don't believe they call themselves the cabal, but then I don't think any organization does. So the way to determine if they're a cabal is by their actions. So you decide. I like to call them the cabal because it is funny, they're so far a detriment to the game and should clean up their act. But of course I don't hate them personally, but you can see a diplomatic game playing out and that could never lead to the best version of the game possible. They like to make changes to make things more like BW. But guess what, what made BW great was a lead designer like Robert Pardo sitting down by himself making sheet after sheet to determine what the different stats on the units should be like. Today you would call this kind of person an Icefrog. If BW was made by a democratic council, it would've turned out a cluster fuck.
On January 09 2024 11:40 AxiomB wrote: Can we get the community balance team to contribute to the discussion? Or is the Zerg International Cabal real?
The Zerg cabal is very happy with the answer that Protoss is not underpowered at all, but that the Protoss talent pool is simply not up to T and Z standards. Maybe we could nerf battery overcharge a little more I am having too good of a time defending ravager 'all ins' that smoothly transition to a perfectly fine Zerg midgame )
On January 09 2024 11:40 AxiomB wrote: Can we get the community balance team to contribute to the discussion? Or is the Zerg International Cabal real?
The unpaid selfexploiters community balance team, by and large is avoiding public statements. This not only gives them "trust me bro" levels of credibility, but also allows them to completely avoid taking responsibility for their balancing decisions.
A fact I completely understand, looking at some of the vile shit, some cretins spew on the internet. And utterly detest for the lack of accountability. At the same time. The be honest, Im glad Im not personally in their shoes.
On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote: Reynor's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias. .
Reynor in an interview actually did say protoss is fucked over in the PvT match-up, hahaha. There's a reason reynor only plays Protoss when it's vs. a Zerg opponent not a Terran one.
I would counter by saying that as great as those three were, with the POSSIBLE exception of Rain, they were never at a true top level the way Maru, Innovation, Serral, Rogue, Dark, and some other top guys have been -- as great as they were, Protoss doesn't seem to reward great "all-around" play quite at the level of the other two races, but we've seen more guys with more gimmicky styles (Parting -- MOBA-Toss, sOs -- Loki-Toss, et cetera) have huge success at the highest levels, although, as Artosis notes, their success was more fleeting.
Idk why people complain about toss when they are the weakest race And rabbit is right There`s the Serral, Rogue, Inno, Maru (i wonder if his injuries are starting to hurt), modern Dark tier -- massive gap -- the "Byun/Reynor tier" then the "her0 tier", the Clem tier, the Astrea tier and the Heromarine tier
People never address this stuff for various reasons and starts trolling when Her0 beats players like Heromarine...like...man, their skill gap is abysmal
EPT
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