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On January 10 2024 03:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
What if EMP removed only 75 or even 50 shields? Would this make PvT more fair?
The easiest way to re-balance PvT without touching PvZ is probably to reduce or get rid of the (gimmicky?) “features” that Terran units have that work only against Protoss. AFAIK these are Ghosts EMP affecting shields and widow mine extra damage to shields.
From these two I’d rather tune down the widow mine. It is just too cost-effective during the whole game for its cost and build time. It demolishes zealots with very few counterplay options, as these are almost unmicroable when they are charging. The only counterplay is not to engage, which is detrimental to the game.
A single WM shot that hits 4 full-health zealots does 100+50+3*(40+25)=345 instant damage. That’s insane. Those same 4 zealots together would need almost 5 in-game seconds of fully attacking something to do the same damage. And cost 400 vs 75/25…
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On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change.
Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few.
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On January 10 2024 08:21 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 03:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
What if EMP removed only 75 or even 50 shields? Would this make PvT more fair? The easiest way to re-balance PvT without touching PvZ is probably to reduce or get rid of the (gimmicky?) “features” that Terran units have that work only against Protoss. AFAIK these are Ghosts EMP affecting shields and widow mine extra damage to shields. From these two I’d rather tune down the widow mine. It is just too cost-effective during the whole game for its cost and build time. It demolishes zealots with very few counterplay options, as these are almost unmicroable when they are charging. The only counterplay is not to engage, which is detrimental to the game. A single WM shot that hits 4 full-health zealots does 100+50+3*(40+25)=345 instant damage. That’s insane. Those same 4 zealots together would need almost 5 in-game seconds of fully attacking something to do the same damage. And cost 400 vs 75/25…
Well, Zealots are not meant to counter WM. You can't just calculate that 1 Immortal can take out 20 WMs by himself and then compare the dmg and cost of this fight. Immortal dmg 1000s, WM dmg 0 -> How imba
Otherwise I agree, WMs are shit and annoying and do too much (instant) dmg while also beeing a cloaked unit with very little investment and micro
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On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few.
Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time, yet he would not be the best if he was put into current hockey in his prime. Same applies to the names mentioned earlier.
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France13023 Posts
On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few.
Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race
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On January 10 2024 20:15 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time, yet he would not be the best if he was put into current hockey in his prime. Same applies to the names mentioned earlier.
Exactly this.
Football players like Pele and George Best wouldn't be anywhere near the required level in the current game, but they were absolute titans of their respective generations, and they're respected throughout the game as a result of that.
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United States1972 Posts
the prescience here is delightful
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Maxpax and her0 both put in high level performances in the recent ESL open. Maxpax 3-0 Clem and her0 3-2 Dark. Interesting to see Maxpax use a mass disruptor strat given their significant nerf also. That said both Dark and Clem looked a little off their usual level.
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On January 10 2024 08:21 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 03:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
What if EMP removed only 75 or even 50 shields? Would this make PvT more fair? The easiest way to re-balance PvT without touching PvZ is probably to reduce or get rid of the (gimmicky?) “features” that Terran units have that work only against Protoss. AFAIK these are Ghosts EMP affecting shields and widow mine extra damage to shields. From these two I’d rather tune down the widow mine. It is just too cost-effective during the whole game for its cost and build time. It demolishes zealots with very few counterplay options, as these are almost unmicroable when they are charging. The only counterplay is not to engage, which is detrimental to the game. A single WM shot that hits 4 full-health zealots does 100+50+3*(40+25)=345 instant damage. That’s insane. Those same 4 zealots together would need almost 5 in-game seconds of fully attacking something to do the same damage. And cost 400 vs 75/25…
i like how you conviently forget that protoss have unit that can 1shot half of terran army in 1sec
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On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race
Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”.
Rain casually popped over to BW again and won an ASL, he’s a remarkably skillful RTS player
Like almost any field of human endeavour it gets optimised and improved with collective knowledge over time is all
On a purely technical wizardry level you could time travel any number of YouTube guitar players, hell myself back to the 70s and we’d be guitar gods amongst mortals
But that’s standing on the shoulders of giants, if you sent me back to the late 60s with my memory wiped, I’d almost 100% not beat Jimi Hendrix to the punch
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On January 11 2024 10:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”. Rain casually popped over to BW again and won an ASL, he’s a remarkably skillful RTS player Like almost any field of human endeavour it gets optimised and improved with collective knowledge over time is all On a purely technical wizardry level you could time travel any number of YouTube guitar players, hell myself back to the 70s and we’d be guitar gods amongst mortals But that’s standing on the shoulders of giants, if you sent me back to the late 60s with my memory wiped, I’d almost 100% not beat Jimi Hendrix to the punch
Yes but sc2 only out for 14 years.
We started to talk about who are the best players of all time in sc2 for protoss.
I didn’t say they would not have the skills to become the best in todays sc2 but they just played in a lower level of skill compared to todays sc2. It’s just a fact.
Like I said for this short time of sc2 we had zest proved in all eras which the others haven’t.
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On January 11 2024 10:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”. Rain casually popped over to BW again and won an ASL, he’s a remarkably skillful RTS player Like almost any field of human endeavour it gets optimised and improved with collective knowledge over time is all On a purely technical wizardry level you could time travel any number of YouTube guitar players, hell myself back to the 70s and we’d be guitar gods amongst mortals But that’s standing on the shoulders of giants, if you sent me back to the late 60s with my memory wiped, I’d almost 100% not beat Jimi Hendrix to the punch
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On January 11 2024 09:21 AxiomB wrote:
Maxpax and her0 both put in high level performances in the recent ESL open. Maxpax 3-0 Clem and her0 3-2 Dark. Interesting to see Maxpax use a mass disruptor strat given their significant nerf also. That said both Dark and Clem looked a little off their usual level. With the caveat that I have not watched those games, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Protoss continue to lean heavily on Disruptors despite the supply nerf. Colossi and High Templar did not get notably better in the matchup, and Disruptors still fill the same role of being the splash damage option that both deals enough damage to matter and has consistent enough output that Protoss doesn't have significant openings with no splash damage available.
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On January 11 2024 14:07 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 09:21 AxiomB wrote:
Maxpax and her0 both put in high level performances in the recent ESL open. Maxpax 3-0 Clem and her0 3-2 Dark. Interesting to see Maxpax use a mass disruptor strat given their significant nerf also. That said both Dark and Clem looked a little off their usual level. With the caveat that I have not watched those games, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Protoss continue to lean heavily on Disruptors despite the supply nerf. Colossi and High Templar did not get notably better in the matchup, and Disruptors still fill the same role of being the splash damage option that both deals enough damage to matter and has consistent enough output that Protoss doesn't have significant openings with no splash damage available.
Man I really want some sort of buff to storm. Colossus is boring and sorta thematically dumb (so these giant things do bonus against light units?! ) and Disruptor spam is intrinsically high variance.
Some ideas for buffing storm
1. Return high templar energy upgrade (but correspondingly increase cost of feedback)
2. increase high templar health and remove high templar attack (lower attack priority)
3. Reduce research time for storm
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On January 12 2024 00:13 angry_maia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 14:07 Kyadytim wrote:On January 11 2024 09:21 AxiomB wrote:
Maxpax and her0 both put in high level performances in the recent ESL open. Maxpax 3-0 Clem and her0 3-2 Dark. Interesting to see Maxpax use a mass disruptor strat given their significant nerf also. That said both Dark and Clem looked a little off their usual level. With the caveat that I have not watched those games, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Protoss continue to lean heavily on Disruptors despite the supply nerf. Colossi and High Templar did not get notably better in the matchup, and Disruptors still fill the same role of being the splash damage option that both deals enough damage to matter and has consistent enough output that Protoss doesn't have significant openings with no splash damage available. Man I really want some sort of buff to storm. Colossus is boring and sorta thematically dumb (so these giant things do bonus against light units?! ) and Disruptor spam is intrinsically high variance. Some ideas for buffing storm 1. Return high templar energy upgrade (but correspondingly increase cost of feedback) 2. increase high templar health and remove high templar attack (lower attack priority) 3. Reduce research time for storm
1. warp in storm was was broken
2. warp in storm isnt coming back
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On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”.
The fact it was such an upset proves the point that it's harder for old guys.
Also multiple pros have said they slowed down with age, like Inno and Dark. I trust them over you.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On January 12 2024 00:43 dph114 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 00:13 angry_maia wrote:On January 11 2024 14:07 Kyadytim wrote:On January 11 2024 09:21 AxiomB wrote:
Maxpax and her0 both put in high level performances in the recent ESL open. Maxpax 3-0 Clem and her0 3-2 Dark. Interesting to see Maxpax use a mass disruptor strat given their significant nerf also. That said both Dark and Clem looked a little off their usual level. With the caveat that I have not watched those games, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Protoss continue to lean heavily on Disruptors despite the supply nerf. Colossi and High Templar did not get notably better in the matchup, and Disruptors still fill the same role of being the splash damage option that both deals enough damage to matter and has consistent enough output that Protoss doesn't have significant openings with no splash damage available. Man I really want some sort of buff to storm. Colossus is boring and sorta thematically dumb (so these giant things do bonus against light units?! ) and Disruptor spam is intrinsically high variance. Some ideas for buffing storm 1. Return high templar energy upgrade (but correspondingly increase cost of feedback) 2. increase high templar health and remove high templar attack (lower attack priority) 3. Reduce research time for storm 1. warp in storm was was broken 2. warp in storm isnt coming back
I think it would be ridiculously strong partly because disruptors exist now. Trying to navigate out on the map where a disruptor shot could pop out of fog, or templars with energy could be lurking basically anywhere would be a nightmare
One of those things historically that got almost insta-nerfed when Man Zenith gave a clinic abusing it, rather than leaving it for a while to see if people could (or couldn’t) figure out counter play.
Quite a common thing for Protoss, Zoigs get to have broken toys for months and months
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On January 12 2024 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”. The fact it was such an upset proves the point that it's harder for old guys. Also multiple pros have said they slowed down with age, like Inno and Dark. I trust them over you.
I don’t know if that’s age or just gradual burnout or motivation issues, those guys have a hell of a lot of miles on the clock after all.
Players are atop various games that are way older than conventional wisdom from years ago would have considered the cutoff of viability age wise after all
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EPT
