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Make tournaments Bo5 and after you win a game you must switch the race.  Then we would see who is best when needed to manage all three races.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 01 2024 02:41 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 23:36 WombaT wrote:On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great (top 15 all time), but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago. Oh I don’t forget :p I’m intrigued what he would have done in a parallel universe where Kespa BW continued as he’s a tremendous talent. He usually gets my vote for a greatest StarCraft player across both titles, having won titles in both, but also in some style. Flash is a bit underrated as an SC2 player, he was still a top player just he was never going to be well, Flash and I feel people overlook him for not hitting those heights. I wouldn’t doubt Rain’s abiiity, I just frankly feel Toss has often been quite weak in Legacy and hasn’t always suited his style either. SoS, with a completely different style didn’t hit the same heights either. You’d probably see Protoss being more competitive at the top end if he had stayed, although nothing as occasionally dominant as a Mary or a Serral type I agree with the general sentiment that Toss has been awful in Lotv. 2016-2018 Stats has to rank among the highest peaks of all time and it's only gotten worse since. I think Rain's versatility would have given him a shot at reaching those heights. He won OSL five months after making his SC2 debut and didn't waste much time winning ASL when he went back to BW. On a separate note, a lot of Rain's wins are terrible games (because they are so one sided). He's right up there alongside Inno and Mvp when it comes to players who were so much better than their peers when at their best. Lastly, sOs was never a particularly strong player mechanically. His fingers worked well at HotS speed, but he was pretty exposed in Lotv once things really started speeding up in 2017/18. Doesn't take away from his incredible achievements, but Lotv has done a similar thing to lots of players who relied on brains rather than dexterity.
I suppose he did make a proxy Nexus build work so I have to give him some props.
I think $O$ in particular struggled because his strengths were doing funky things in that low-mid game transition period. He was never really a hardcore cheeser like a Has, never a reactive macro stalwart like a Rain or a Stats but he could cause chaos in that aforementioned period and knew how to navigate it better than his opponents.
Whereas in Legacy that period doesn’t really exist due to the eco changes, well it’s my working theory anyway
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United States1907 Posts
On January 01 2024 03:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2024 02:41 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 23:36 WombaT wrote:On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great (top 15 all time), but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago. Oh I don’t forget :p I’m intrigued what he would have done in a parallel universe where Kespa BW continued as he’s a tremendous talent. He usually gets my vote for a greatest StarCraft player across both titles, having won titles in both, but also in some style. Flash is a bit underrated as an SC2 player, he was still a top player just he was never going to be well, Flash and I feel people overlook him for not hitting those heights. I wouldn’t doubt Rain’s abiiity, I just frankly feel Toss has often been quite weak in Legacy and hasn’t always suited his style either. SoS, with a completely different style didn’t hit the same heights either. You’d probably see Protoss being more competitive at the top end if he had stayed, although nothing as occasionally dominant as a Mary or a Serral type I agree with the general sentiment that Toss has been awful in Lotv. 2016-2018 Stats has to rank among the highest peaks of all time and it's only gotten worse since. I think Rain's versatility would have given him a shot at reaching those heights. He won OSL five months after making his SC2 debut and didn't waste much time winning ASL when he went back to BW. On a separate note, a lot of Rain's wins are terrible games (because they are so one sided). He's right up there alongside Inno and Mvp when it comes to players who were so much better than their peers when at their best. Lastly, sOs was never a particularly strong player mechanically. His fingers worked well at HotS speed, but he was pretty exposed in Lotv once things really started speeding up in 2017/18. Doesn't take away from his incredible achievements, but Lotv has done a similar thing to lots of players who relied on brains rather than dexterity. I suppose he did make a proxy Nexus build work so I have to give him some props. I think $O$ in particular struggled because his strengths were doing funky things in that low-mid game transition period. He was never really a hardcore cheeser like a Has, never a reactive macro stalwart like a Rain or a Stats but he could cause chaos in that aforementioned period and knew how to navigate it better than his opponents. Whereas in Legacy that period doesn’t really exist due to the eco changes, well it’s my working theory anyway
He did well early on. He reached two Code S finals in 2016 and 2017 respectively, only missed out on Blizzcon because of Rogue and then made it to the finals of two weekenders. Things changed a lot in the years that followed and it rarely seemed like he was all that competitive
It reminds of how most people think the players who last a long time in professional sports are those who don't depend primarily on athleticism. The true is, those players eventually reach a point where they've slow down to the point that they can no longer compete at the required speed. It's the more athletic players who last the longest because even if their physical abilities fade, they had the a big advantage to begin with and they fall back to the baseline instead of dropping off a cliff.
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On December 27 2023 22:55 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 05:49 Pentarp wrote:
My concern is the fact that Protoss was over-represented in the ESL qualifiers. So a buff to Protoss can hurt viewership with non-stop PvP like the ZvZs in BL/infestor and Swarmhost eras.
Instead, Protoss needs tweaks to benefit from higher skill levels.
Also, Protoss deathballs need to end. Deathballs are the antithesis to RTS; a deathball can be considered 1 giant hero unit. For example, collosi shouldn't be able to walk over other units; its a terrible design that promotes deathballs. Buffs can be given to compensate, but atleast now they will require more control - which will reward higher skill and punish lower skill. Colossi have already been nerfed into irrelevance.
Colossi still need Terrans to make vikings. You're acting like colossi are never made in PvT at the pro levels. That would be the definition of relevance.
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On January 01 2024 10:21 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 22:55 MJG wrote:On December 27 2023 05:49 Pentarp wrote:
My concern is the fact that Protoss was over-represented in the ESL qualifiers. So a buff to Protoss can hurt viewership with non-stop PvP like the ZvZs in BL/infestor and Swarmhost eras.
Instead, Protoss needs tweaks to benefit from higher skill levels.
Also, Protoss deathballs need to end. Deathballs are the antithesis to RTS; a deathball can be considered 1 giant hero unit. For example, collosi shouldn't be able to walk over other units; its a terrible design that promotes deathballs. Buffs can be given to compensate, but atleast now they will require more control - which will reward higher skill and punish lower skill. Colossi have already been nerfed into irrelevance. Colossi still need Terrans to make vikings. You're acting like colossi are never made in PvT at the pro levels. That would be the definition of relevance.
That’s only if Protoss Survive to the late game. Colossi are literally trash for the investment. How many times have we since Protoss literally lose when defending their 3rd but raven instantly disable all the colossi and terran just Stim a move to victory
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Unless we make tournament series all bo3's, even the finals. Then we have to give Protoss back what makes them win consistently. LotV economy is actually pretty strong for Protoss. The reason Protoss falls off is that they are the race in need of the most workers in the late game, because its army efficiency lacks. And this eats into the army count. Now you also have the fact that all Protoss units have received supply nerfs in an effort to remove the death ball, or whatever logic. This makes the Protoss late game army absolutely nonexistent. Did we have 3supply disruptor,4supply tempest,6supply new mothership/8supply old mothership,3supply voidray, then it would be a different story. This is why I lost faith in Protoss since Stats and after Zest gave us the Adept nerf. Though hope was sort of restored with PartinG, because he showed us that Protoss skill can also lead to consistent wins via aggro builds, mind games and breaking the mental of opponents. I didn't jump on the Trap band wagon, because I don't think this style wins tournaments for Protoss anymore, it is more that the opponents played subpar. Trap can't beat a Maru or Serral in form. Now herO performed an actual Protoss miracle, I never believed, but you could see in his control of the game that he was outplaying a player like Maru. Watch that finals and see his control, he willed his way to the win. I did not see this level of TvP, since TY vs PartinG.
We see it with Maxpax as well, the way for Protoss to win vs Terran is through insane control and mind games. The way I would describe the PartinG way to win, is that he's winning even before entering the game of Starcraft and that is one way to subgo the balance of the game.
The players were always there, but if you remove every single thing that has allowed a player to win, then it shouldn't surprise you when a player is suddenly not able to win. It's a kind of opposite Darwinism...
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 02 2024 11:06 ejozl wrote:
Unless we make tournament series all bo3's, even the finals. Then we have to give Protoss back what makes them win consistently. LotV economy is actually pretty strong for Protoss. The reason Protoss falls off is that they are the race in need of the most workers in the late game, because its army efficiency lacks. And this eats into the army count. Now you also have the fact that all Protoss units have received supply nerfs in an effort to remove the death ball, or whatever logic. This makes the Protoss late game army absolutely nonexistent. Did we have 3supply disruptor,4supply tempest,6supply new mothership/8supply old mothership,3supply voidray, then it would be a different story. This is why I lost faith in Protoss since Stats and after Zest gave us the Adept nerf. Though hope was sort of restored with PartinG, because he showed us that Protoss skill can also lead to consistent wins via aggro builds, mind games and breaking the mental of opponents. I didn't jump on the Trap band wagon, because I don't think this style wins tournaments for Protoss anymore, it is more that the opponents played subpar. Trap can't beat a Maru or Serral in form. Now herO performed an actual Protoss miracle, I never believed, but you could see in his control of the game that he was outplaying a player like Maru. Watch that finals and see his control, he willed his way to the win. I did not see this level of TvP, since TY vs PartinG.
We see it with Maxpax as well, the way for Protoss to win vs Terran is through insane control and mind games. The way I would describe the PartinG way to win, is that he's winning even before entering the game of Starcraft and that is one way to subgo the balance of the game.
The players were always there, but if you remove every single thing that has allowed a player to win, then it shouldn't surprise you when a player is suddenly not able to win. It's a kind of opposite Darwinism...
Plenty of points I agree with you on there but Trap had one of the more consistent spans of any Protoss players ever at his pomp. Someone can make a miracle run at a tournament where their opponents don’t play their best StarCraft, but not a really consistently productive 18 months/2 years
Parting’s probably as overrated as Trap is underrated.
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On January 01 2024 10:21 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 22:55 MJG wrote:On December 27 2023 05:49 Pentarp wrote:
My concern is the fact that Protoss was over-represented in the ESL qualifiers. So a buff to Protoss can hurt viewership with non-stop PvP like the ZvZs in BL/infestor and Swarmhost eras.
Instead, Protoss needs tweaks to benefit from higher skill levels.
Also, Protoss deathballs need to end. Deathballs are the antithesis to RTS; a deathball can be considered 1 giant hero unit. For example, collosi shouldn't be able to walk over other units; its a terrible design that promotes deathballs. Buffs can be given to compensate, but atleast now they will require more control - which will reward higher skill and punish lower skill. Colossi have already been nerfed into irrelevance. Colossi still need Terrans to make vikings. You're acting like colossi are never made in PvT at the pro levels. That would be the definition of relevance.
They only get made because there isn't a better option in the early-game. Once armies get bigger, Disruptors become the dominant option, and Disruptors are so hit-or-miss that they're the epitome of why Protoss can never be consistent without a massive overhaul.
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On January 02 2024 11:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2024 11:06 ejozl wrote:
Unless we make tournament series all bo3's, even the finals. Then we have to give Protoss back what makes them win consistently. LotV economy is actually pretty strong for Protoss. The reason Protoss falls off is that they are the race in need of the most workers in the late game, because its army efficiency lacks. And this eats into the army count. Now you also have the fact that all Protoss units have received supply nerfs in an effort to remove the death ball, or whatever logic. This makes the Protoss late game army absolutely nonexistent. Did we have 3supply disruptor,4supply tempest,6supply new mothership/8supply old mothership,3supply voidray, then it would be a different story. This is why I lost faith in Protoss since Stats and after Zest gave us the Adept nerf. Though hope was sort of restored with PartinG, because he showed us that Protoss skill can also lead to consistent wins via aggro builds, mind games and breaking the mental of opponents. I didn't jump on the Trap band wagon, because I don't think this style wins tournaments for Protoss anymore, it is more that the opponents played subpar. Trap can't beat a Maru or Serral in form. Now herO performed an actual Protoss miracle, I never believed, but you could see in his control of the game that he was outplaying a player like Maru. Watch that finals and see his control, he willed his way to the win. I did not see this level of TvP, since TY vs PartinG.
We see it with Maxpax as well, the way for Protoss to win vs Terran is through insane control and mind games. The way I would describe the PartinG way to win, is that he's winning even before entering the game of Starcraft and that is one way to subgo the balance of the game.
The players were always there, but if you remove every single thing that has allowed a player to win, then it shouldn't surprise you when a player is suddenly not able to win. It's a kind of opposite Darwinism... Plenty of points I agree with you on there but Trap had one of the more consistent spans of any Protoss players ever at his pomp. Someone can make a miracle run at a tournament where their opponents don’t play their best StarCraft, but not a really consistently productive 18 months/2 years Parting’s probably as overrated as Trap is underrated.
I agree, I was underrating Trap, I'm just stating my opinion on his style. People mentioned Rain earlier and I have the same opinion there. They could do great, but could never beat a peak form Serral or Maru. Partly due to the nature of Protoss and partly because you need more than just the ability to play straight up.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 02 2024 19:28 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2024 11:44 WombaT wrote:On January 02 2024 11:06 ejozl wrote:
Unless we make tournament series all bo3's, even the finals. Then we have to give Protoss back what makes them win consistently. LotV economy is actually pretty strong for Protoss. The reason Protoss falls off is that they are the race in need of the most workers in the late game, because its army efficiency lacks. And this eats into the army count. Now you also have the fact that all Protoss units have received supply nerfs in an effort to remove the death ball, or whatever logic. This makes the Protoss late game army absolutely nonexistent. Did we have 3supply disruptor,4supply tempest,6supply new mothership/8supply old mothership,3supply voidray, then it would be a different story. This is why I lost faith in Protoss since Stats and after Zest gave us the Adept nerf. Though hope was sort of restored with PartinG, because he showed us that Protoss skill can also lead to consistent wins via aggro builds, mind games and breaking the mental of opponents. I didn't jump on the Trap band wagon, because I don't think this style wins tournaments for Protoss anymore, it is more that the opponents played subpar. Trap can't beat a Maru or Serral in form. Now herO performed an actual Protoss miracle, I never believed, but you could see in his control of the game that he was outplaying a player like Maru. Watch that finals and see his control, he willed his way to the win. I did not see this level of TvP, since TY vs PartinG.
We see it with Maxpax as well, the way for Protoss to win vs Terran is through insane control and mind games. The way I would describe the PartinG way to win, is that he's winning even before entering the game of Starcraft and that is one way to subgo the balance of the game.
The players were always there, but if you remove every single thing that has allowed a player to win, then it shouldn't surprise you when a player is suddenly not able to win. It's a kind of opposite Darwinism... Plenty of points I agree with you on there but Trap had one of the more consistent spans of any Protoss players ever at his pomp. Someone can make a miracle run at a tournament where their opponents don’t play their best StarCraft, but not a really consistently productive 18 months/2 years Parting’s probably as overrated as Trap is underrated. I agree, I was underrating Trap, I'm just stating my opinion on his style. People mentioned Rain earlier and I have the same opinion there. They could do great, but could never beat a peak form Serral or Maru. Partly due to the nature of Protoss and partly because you need more than just the ability to play straight up.
Rain was an absolute monster at his peak, IMO top 10 no worries.
But I also agree aye, I think for a Protoss to truly be absolutely dominant they have to master the extremes in a way other races don’t. To have a Maru/Serral level presence you’d need a player who could play defensive macro styles to Rain or Stat’s level, but also have at least one, ideally all of Parting or herO’s aggression in the pocket, or sOs’ mid-game mastery in your locker.
And there’s just no way that’s happening. They’re such divergent styles, with very different skill sets that to have one player who can do them all is just such a tall order.
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On January 02 2024 01:11 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2024 10:21 Pentarp wrote:On December 27 2023 22:55 MJG wrote:On December 27 2023 05:49 Pentarp wrote:
My concern is the fact that Protoss was over-represented in the ESL qualifiers. So a buff to Protoss can hurt viewership with non-stop PvP like the ZvZs in BL/infestor and Swarmhost eras.
Instead, Protoss needs tweaks to benefit from higher skill levels.
Also, Protoss deathballs need to end. Deathballs are the antithesis to RTS; a deathball can be considered 1 giant hero unit. For example, collosi shouldn't be able to walk over other units; its a terrible design that promotes deathballs. Buffs can be given to compensate, but atleast now they will require more control - which will reward higher skill and punish lower skill. Colossi have already been nerfed into irrelevance. Colossi still need Terrans to make vikings. You're acting like colossi are never made in PvT at the pro levels. That would be the definition of relevance. That’s only if Protoss Survive to the late game. Colossi are literally trash for the investment. How many times have we since Protoss literally lose when defending their 3rd but raven instantly disable all the colossi and terran just Stim a move to victory
Fact that collosi are being used is proof that theyre not "irrelevant". Raven timing was nerfed as well. Crying about irrelevance while still seeing use in pro games is hilarious.
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@Pentarp:
Your original complaint was about Colossus death-balls and that's the context I was referring to when I stated that Colossi have been nerfed into irrelevance. I apologise if that wasn't clear.
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Parting and Trap are overrated. Their level may be consistent for long periods. But they never hit the peaks of hero, Classic, Rain, Zest and sOs in prime form.
Both are the Zerg equivalents of Byul in SC2 and soma and hero in BW. Or BW Toss equivalent of Best.
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United States1907 Posts
On January 03 2024 22:57 RKC wrote:
Parting and Trap are overrated. Their level may be consistent for long periods. But they never hit the peaks of hero, Classic, Rain, Zest and sOs in prime form.
Both are the Zerg equivalents of Byul in SC2 and soma and hero in BW. Or BW Toss equivalent of Best.
You're insulting ByuL's 2015 by mentioning it alongside Trap and PartinG. Neither of them achieved anything close to making 3 Code S/SSL finals in a six month period.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
If anything it speaks to how underrated Byul is
Also one can make the argument that those Protoss players were great, but none really prospered in eras where Protoss was generally doing badly to the degree Trap did. Or Trap just peaked as a player in an era that was getting weaker
Aside from winning a bunch of internationals Trap made 10+ GSL Ro8s in a row, a record that sadly won’t be beaten with format changes.
Trap’s baseline Code S for this period is a really good run for Parting, I don’t think they’re really that comparable at all
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United States1907 Posts
On January 04 2024 07:06 WombaT wrote:
If anything it speaks to how underrated Byul is
Also one can make the argument that those Protoss players were great, but none really prospered in eras where Protoss was generally doing badly to the degree Trap did. Or Trap just peaked as a player in an era that was getting weaker
Aside from winning a bunch of internationals Trap made 10+ GSL Ro8s in a row, a record that sadly won’t be beaten with format changes.
Trap’s baseline Code S for this period is a really good run for Parting, I don’t think they’re really that comparable at all
Trap's greatest achievement was being eliminated in 9-12th place for a million consecutive Code S seasons which got everyone mad because we ranked him as the 9th best player in every power rank for nearly an entire year.
I will say, Trap's late career resurgence is extremely impressive. I think the "protoss not being good" factor is somewhat balanced by the fact that Trap's success came as more and more players were heading to military and a lot of great players (soO, Stats, Inno etc) weren't so great anymore, but he outperformed his peers (other Protoss) during that stretch by an amount that I would deem not insignificant.
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Byul is a level below Rogue, Dark, and The-One-Who-Shalt-Not-Be-Named. The same way that Trap and Parting are a level below Zest, Classic, hero, etc. It's all relative. It's not fair to simply compare players across different races based on quantity of trophies or deep runs. Where each player ranks in their own race tier list is a fairer reflection of their standing.
(That said, I do think Trap is one or half a level higher than Parting.)
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United States1907 Posts
On January 05 2024 01:55 RKC wrote:
Byul is a level below Rogue, Dark, and The-One-Who-Shalt-Not-Be-Named. The same way that Trap and Parting are a level below Zest, Classic, hero, etc. It's all relative. It's not fair to simply compare players across different races based on quantity of trophies or deep runs. Where each player ranks in their own race tier list is a fairer reflection of their standing.
(That said, I do think Trap is one or half a level higher than Parting.)
Lists have been made.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 04 2024 07:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2024 07:06 WombaT wrote:
If anything it speaks to how underrated Byul is
Also one can make the argument that those Protoss players were great, but none really prospered in eras where Protoss was generally doing badly to the degree Trap did. Or Trap just peaked as a player in an era that was getting weaker
Aside from winning a bunch of internationals Trap made 10+ GSL Ro8s in a row, a record that sadly won’t be beaten with format changes.
Trap’s baseline Code S for this period is a really good run for Parting, I don’t think they’re really that comparable at all Trap's greatest achievement was being eliminated in 9-12th place for a million consecutive Code S seasons which got everyone mad because we ranked him as the 9th best player in every power rank for nearly an entire year. I will say, Trap's late career resurgence is extremely impressive. I think the "protoss not being good" factor is somewhat balanced by the fact that Trap's success came as more and more players were heading to military and a lot of great players (soO, Stats, Inno etc) weren't so great anymore, but he outperformed his peers (other Protoss) during that stretch by an amount that I would deem not insignificant.
Yeah, they had him outdone in the more cutthroat era, which trumps him outdoing them in a less competitive era where they’d already climbed most mountains so maybe weren’t as motivated too.
I sometimes wonder if something just mentally clicked in Trap, perhaps in the latter day post-Kespa era just suited him better, as it suited a player like Inno less. Mentality and liberation to do your best can be a strange and unpredictable beast, look at TY when military service loomed and he started casting, people assumed (not me :p) that he was done as a competitive player but he posted some of his best results in years.
@RKC yeah fair, I do consider Trap very underrated but not to the extent I put him above those players. But I do think there’s a pretty sizeable gap between him and Parting. If Trap maybe squeezes into an S rank of Protoss players throughout SC2’s history, below those big boys (joke intended) no way Parting does
Don’t wanna seem down on the guy, great player and fun guy to boot. Also think the mists of time have pigeonholed him as a very aggressive, cheesy player but when he first burst onto the scene his Templar-focused macro style in PvT he showed great chops and evolved the game in that direction too
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ByuL is a very forgettable player for me. He didn't win anything, his biggest achievement is trying to be SoO? He was very hyped, beeing a Kespa player, but I was never very impressed.
Meanwhile Trap and PartinG are actual legends. Trap is arguably the best Toss of LotV, though people don't care about Toss players in this installment. And PartinG had 10 ro16 Code S in a row, when gsl was the most competitive. He contributes enormously to the meta. He has been the best player at different times with crazy peaks. And he has been relevant in all of the 3 installments.
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EPT
