Yet another major over without a decent Protoss showing (that said, respect to Harstem for 3-1 Reynor).
Hero beating Maru 3-2 but losing to Heromarine 3-1 hurt Auir's feelings and Classic losing to Dark feels standard.
It all looks so familiar; Protoss competes, wins and loses on very shaky ground; inconsistent performances and showings.
Yes Clem is deserving, yes Serral is one of the greatest to ever touch the game, yes Dark has a consistency that is astounding, Solar has always been an elite, Cure is a very sound Terran, Byun is a gifted player etc… etc… but beneath all of this is the truth that the flimsiness of Protoss design is what hinders the race being competitive and not the race’s pilots.
1) Zerg and Terran have incredible players right now 2) Protoss internationally have lost several championship contending players 3) Protoss pros are just worse at the game? 4) The observation made is this; how often do we see a Zerg or Terran player under heavy pressure, even losing and rally to come back or stabilize, now consider the scenario with Protoss. The range for stabilization and back and forth play is less with Protoss. This is because of the now well established limitations imposed on gateway units due to the power of the warp in mechanic.
Now let me be clear; I play random, I do not care for Protoss particularly, I just want the pro scene to be viable for all races and exhibit the most competitive games possible. I also do not expect radical changes to the game to address this issue.
Just spitballing here; but one thought I had was to allow Protoss to train ‘Elder’ gateway units from closed gateways after Twilight Council is warped in. Elder gateway units would be the same as normal gateway units but are trained (the way units are trained before warpgate is researched and the way P units are trained in BW) and have a small percentage greater Hp and /or dps than normal gateway units (a reasonable small % wld need to determined). They could look basically the same but be identified by a small color/ graphic change. Of course train time could be addressed also. A P player would open or close gates depending on their build.
Hate the idea? Sure, but Protoss need something! What does everyone think? What other reasons are there for the lack of success of Protoss?
I think there are a lot of things that have changed with the game and the race that make it see less success (And i don't buy that Protoss isn't doing well simply cus they lost their best players, Zest and sOs had many more tournament wins and success in HotS than LotV, even though they were playing 2x as many years in LotV than HotS)
For example a couple years ago, Protoss used to open up with a good amount of varied builds, such as proxy Oracle openers, but now that's not standard and from what i've heard from pros, it seems that the only way to play Protoss at the pro level is to mainly play straight up macro. That's limiting especially at a top level.
Protoss used to have strong openers and really strong timings/all-ins throughout SC2 since WoL, but they always get nerfed. So Protoss has weaker peaks, but they still have the punishing and steep lows of the race. Now Protoss usually has to sit back and isn't very scary in the early or mid game, rather they are fragile until they get more tech units. How many times do you see a early Zerg Ravager push kill a Protoss and make it look nearly impossible to defend, and how many times do you see a Protoss try a supposedly "strong" push with gateways/immortals/WP, and it looks closee to breaking the Zerg but they just keep having enough Roach/ling reinforcements to hold it off from doing any real drone damage?
I think Protoss is definitely in a much more doable place thanks to the latest patch (though the problem was introduced in the first place by nerfing Overcharge without giving nearly enough to compensate, thus making PvT extremely hard as the winrate seem to have been around 40% only, which for the history of SC2 is relatively VERY imbalanced judging from the stats the blizzard team would share about the state of balance). But Protoss is still very fragile and punishing. I think honestly Protoss is the hardest race to play at the top top level.
It makes sense because Protoss has so many different units and abilities with such great potential, but with most players who aren't super fast or incredible with micro, you don't usually see Protoss show off what it can do. But when played by someone as fast and good at multi-tasking and control as someone like say Reynor, you start seeing what Protoss really could be if it had a Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem type player. So, perhaps it really is just that Protoss never had a player on that level of crazy skill. Protoss as a race has so many different things you can be good at, and we see this through how each Protoss player's skillset varies much more than say Terran players do from other Terrans. We just haven't really seen a Protoss player have it all.
On a side note, maps are always a factor. For a long time people have wondered how do you make a Protoss favored map, without simply making the map have more closed spaces which also favors Terran? Well the answer is have huge maps where warpin, recall, etc. become more powerful, such as Radhuset. Ok what do we do about Terran's immobility on such huge maps? Re-introduce Terran-favored map features such as cliffs spread out around the middle of the map or near some far away late-game expansions so that it's easier for Terran to hold positions, harass, etc. so that Protoss/Zerg don't just get free bases too easily. Re-introduce chokes/ramps/highground for far away bases. Stop making every expansion so open, which promotes deathball gameplay and favors Zerg (especially hard to defend vs cracklings for example). I know that a few years ago, the reason expansions are open is so that it's easier to threaten a Zerg base, since Zerg was so strong at the time. However, having expansion options with chokes/ramps for example would help Terran and Protoss more than Zerg. There's a lot of map features and ideas that are very common in BW maps and even earlier SC2 maps that promote spread out gameplay, that just got phased out and to me it feels like mapmakers just forget those are options or forget that maybe the reason they got phased out was for a valid reason at the time, but no longer holds anymore with the current state of the game/design/balance.
On December 20 2023 12:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I think there are a lot of things that have changed with the game and the race that make it see less success (And i don't buy that Protoss isn't doing well simply cus they lost their best players, Zest and sOs had many more tournament wins and success in HotS than LotV, even though they were playing 2x as many years in LotV than HotS)
For example a couple years ago, Protoss used to open up with a good amount of varied builds, such as proxy Oracle openers, but now that's not standard and from what i've heard from pros, it seems that the only way to play Protoss at the pro level is to mainly play straight up macro. That's limiting especially at a top level.
Protoss used to have strong openers and really strong timings/all-ins throughout SC2 since WoL, but they always get nerfed. So Protoss has weaker peaks, but they still have the punishing and steep lows of the race. Now Protoss usually has to sit back and isn't very scary in the early or mid game, rather they are fragile until they get more tech units. How many times do you see a early Zerg Ravager push kill a Protoss and make it look nearly impossible to defend, and how many times do you see a Protoss try a supposedly "strong" push with gateways/immortals/WP, and it looks closee to breaking the Zerg but they just keep having enough Roach/ling reinforcements to hold it off from doing any real drone damage?
I think Protoss is definitely in a much more doable place thanks to the latest patch (though the problem was introduced in the first place by nerfing Overcharge without giving nearly enough to compensate, thus making PvT extremely hard as the winrate seem to have been around 40% only, which for the history of SC2 is relatively VERY imbalanced judging from the stats the blizzard team would share about the state of balance). But Protoss is still very fragile and punishing. I think honestly Protoss is the hardest race to play at the top top level.
It makes sense because Protoss has so many different units and abilities with such great potential, but with most players who aren't super fast or incredible with micro, you don't usually see Protoss show off what it can do. But when played by someone as fast and good at multi-tasking and control as someone like say Reynor, you start seeing what Protoss really could be if it had a Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem type player. So, perhaps it really is just that Protoss never had a player on that level of crazy skill. Protoss as a race has so many different things you can be good at, and we see this through how each Protoss player's skillset varies much more than say Terran players do from other Terrans. We just haven't really seen a Protoss player have it all.
On a side note, maps are always a factor. For a long time people have wondered how do you make a Protoss favored map, without simply making the map have more closed spaces which also favors Terran? Well the answer is have huge maps where warpin, recall, etc. become more powerful, such as Radhuset. Ok what do we do about Terran's immobility on such huge maps? Re-introduce Terran-favored map features such as cliffs spread out around the middle of the map or near some far away late-game expansions so that it's easier for Terran to hold positions, harass, etc. so that Protoss/Zerg don't just get free bases too easily. Re-introduce chokes/ramps/highground for far away bases. Stop making every expansion so open, which promotes deathball gameplay and favors Zerg (especially hard to defend vs cracklings for example). I know that a few years ago, the reason expansions are open is so that it's easier to threaten a Zerg base, since Zerg was so strong at the time. However, having expansion options with chokes/ramps for example would help Terran and Protoss more than Zerg. There's a lot of map features and ideas that are very common in BW maps and even earlier SC2 maps that promote spread out gameplay, that just got phased out and to me it feels like mapmakers just forget those are options or forget that maybe the reason they got phased out was for a valid reason at the time, but no longer holds anymore with the current state of the game/design/balance.
The Maps point is very interesting, well articulated. Perhaps Protoss could be slightly buffed by increasing the Protoss favored maps slightly in the manner you suggested.
I think the only reason we don't think Protoss is the mostest OPest race ever is because we don't get to see MaxPax decimate the competition at a live event.
On December 20 2023 12:59 Blargh wrote: I think the only reason we don't think Protoss is the mostest OPest race ever is because we don't get to see MaxPax decimate the competition at a live event.
Maxpax can't even win much online besides open cups and the one pigsty and it's extremely obvious from his few interviews that he has bad anxiety. He would do terrible in at least his first 4-5 offline events and even after he adjusts he would only have the chance to win that he currently has for the bigger online events which is pretty low. He won one this year but he notably didn't play any top Zergs and Maru was being a Kong in international events.
Fun Fact, overall Protoss had higher Win % than Terran during this tournament (excluding mirrors) Source: liquipedia.net
Zerg: 52,7% (Won 49/93 games, 30/52 vs Terran and 19/41 vs Protoss) Protoss: 48,9% (Won 43/88 games, 21/47 vs Terran and 22/41 vs Zerg) Terran: 48,5% (Won 48/99 games, 22/52 vs Zerg and 26/47 vs Protoss)
Protoss doesn't just need one or two minor buffs to be more competitive. The entire race would need to be reworked so that it isn't as dependent on power units that are easily hard-countered in the late-game, and so that Gateway units are more than just cannon fodder for those power units. This isn't an easy fix and it would require Blizzard to be actively engaged in redeveloping the game, which they clearly aren't.
The hyper-aggression that MaxPax and herO use in the mid-game is great for weekly tournaments with shorter formats, and it's very entertaining to watch, but it's never going to be sustainable over tournaments that have multiple Bo5 and Bo7 series. Good players will drag them into the late-game and Protoss isn't equipped for it.
On December 20 2023 12:59 Blargh wrote: I think the only reason we don't think Protoss is the mostest OPest race ever is because we don't get to see MaxPax decimate the competition at a live event.
On December 20 2023 17:12 Ch3rry wrote: Fun Fact, overall Protoss had higher Win % than Terran during this tournament (excluding mirrors) Source: liquipedia.net
Zerg: 52,7% (Won 49/93 games, 30/52 vs Terran and 19/41 vs Protoss) Protoss: 48,9% (Won 43/88 games, 21/47 vs Terran and 22/41 vs Zerg) Terran: 48,5% (Won 48/99 games, 22/52 vs Zerg and 26/47 vs Protoss)
This is turbo useless as a stat, pvt and pvz were both below 50% its just that tvz was even worse than pvt or pvz but terran had 1 favored mu by the stats.
Honestly at this point I don't get what you guys want to actually happen. Let me ask everyone this question honestly. Who do you think SHOULD be winning these tournaments that plays Protoss currently. Honestly, who do you think is good enough to win these tournaments?
the Korean Protoss players can't beat Dark. They've proven that for years and years and years now. Dark just eats them and if Dark won't Serral will. Do you think this kind of one sided dominance is because of racial balance? Honestly. Do you think the only reason herO and Classic can't beat Dark and Serral is because their race is weaker?
Sure Maru has been showing some weaknesses lately due to his injury (and perhaps other issues) but does anyone think that an in shape Maru or Cure or Clem should lose to herO and Classic in a Bo7 and the only reason it isn't happening is because of racial balance?
The odd ball out of this equation is Maxpax, who MIGHT be good enough to beat these players and upset the established hierarchy, but due to his own personal reasons he doesn't play at LAN events so its impossible to know. Is him not playing at LAN events a balance problem?
The other European Protoss players are hopeless. We can't expect them to upset the EU Zergs, that's been a hopeless case for years now.
What do you guys want to happen? A balance patch that makes Protoss so much stronger that these players start beating the very best Zergs and Terrans? What do you even want them to do to make that happen? What sort of minor change could you possibly do that could possibly tip the balance so that Classic can beat Serral, that won't have massive repercussions all the way through the pro scene where Protoss already outnumbers the other races at the lower rungs of any big tournament?
I know what I'd like to see happen. It's the same thing I've wanted since WoL, I want Warp Gate redesigned so it isn't a core mechanic of the race and to see Protoss Gateway units buffed to compensate. But since that's obviously never going to happen and most Protoss players don't even WANT that change to start with (even though it's the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS way to make Protoss better at the highest level without breaking them at the levels below it) so I'm out of ideas of what else could possibly done to give Protoss at the highest level that edge so that Classic can finally beat Seral and Dark without making Protoss dominate everyone all the way down the ladder. I'm open to hearing ideas. SPECIFIC ideas.
If you guys don't have them, then I honestly don't know what you expect to happen.
I say: its all a matter of perspective. Its just a game guys. Relax.
Create a "last surviving Protoss" award/trophy for events. It'll kinda be like the in-season tournament the NBA now runs. Call it the "Patry Cup".. the last name of the 1st ever Starleague champion, Guilliame Patry.
Congratz to Classic... the Patry Cup winner of Dreamhack Atlanta 2023! ! !
I eulogized his futile run through the impossible task of winning Dreamhack Atlanta.
Let's all have a moment of silence for the tragic losses of the many great Protoss players in this event. These players fought a futile battle knowing their only honour would be that of surviving longer than any other Protoss.
The last flame of hope extinguished after the last Protoss victory on Oceanborn by Classic in the RO8. Classic's big win that got him to the RO8, further than any other Protoss, was not broadcast. The greatest Protoss victory goes unseen, unrecognized, unaffirmed. Decades from now people will begin to claim the Protoss never existed and that Aiur was always the land of the Zerg. Soon we will see claims that the slaughter of the Protoss on Aiur never happened.
The Protoss are indeed a forgotten people.
Think of the Protoss according to the ancient teachings of the Khala and ancient video game traditions of the 1970s. At the dawn of the game industry the player/combatant put a quarter into a cabinet size machine KNOWING the machine's purpose was to end their game as fast as possible to take another quarter from them ASAP.
We know these great Protoss players are marching to their inevitable death. No different than any player who ever put a quarter into a "Space Invaders" arcade machine in 1978. The first born are the first to come full circle. As 1978's Darth Vader said: "The Cycle Is Complete".
The Protoss are the traditional , first born along many different dimensions of thinking.
1979... 1978 ... kinda the same. you guys get it. I can prove they are the same if requested. Anyhow, "Game Over".
On December 20 2023 19:46 Vindicare605 wrote: Honestly at this point I don't get what you guys want to actually happen. Let me ask everyone this question honestly. Who do you think SHOULD be winning these tournaments that plays Protoss currently. Honestly, who do you think is good enough to win these tournaments?
the Korean Protoss players can't beat Dark. They've proven that for years and years and years now. Dark just eats them and if Dark won't Serral will. Do you think this kind of one sided dominance is because of racial balance? Honestly. Do you think the only reason herO and Classic can't beat Dark and Serral is because their race is weaker?
Sure Maru has been showing some weaknesses lately due to his injury (and perhaps other issues) but does anyone think that an in shape Maru or Cure or Clem should lose to herO and Classic in a Bo7 and the only reason it isn't happening is because of racial balance?
The odd ball out of this equation is Maxpax, who MIGHT be good enough to beat these players and upset the established hierarchy, but due to his own personal reasons he doesn't play at LAN events so its impossible to know. Is him not playing at LAN events a balance problem?
The other European Protoss players are hopeless. We can't expect them to upset the EU Zergs, that's been a hopeless case for years now.
What do you guys want to happen? A balance patch that makes Protoss so much stronger that these players start beating the very best Zergs and Terrans? What do you even want them to do to make that happen? What sort of minor change could you possibly do that could possibly tip the balance so that Classic can beat Serral, that won't have massive repercussions all the way through the pro scene where Protoss already outnumbers the other races at the lower rungs of any big tournament?
I know what I'd like to see happen. It's the same thing I've wanted since WoL, I want Warp Gate redesigned so it isn't a core mechanic of the race and to see Protoss Gateway units buffed to compensate. But since that's obviously never going to happen and most Protoss players don't even WANT that change to start with (even though it's the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS way to make Protoss better at the highest level without breaking them at the levels below it) so I'm out of ideas of what else could possibly done to give Protoss at the highest level that edge so that Classic can finally beat Seral and Dark without making Protoss dominate everyone all the way down the ladder. I'm open to hearing ideas. SPECIFIC ideas.
If you guys don't have them, then I honestly don't know what you expect to happen.
Did you read my suggestion in the OP? 'Elder' Gateway units? Is it sooo terrible? It could work though right and major redesign wld not be necessary.
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated.
Seriously though, buff the Zealot. in Brood War the sight of 3+ Zealots gave me PTSD as a Terran player. In SC2, Zealots look like marshmellows to me. Perhaps Add health, add damage, make zealot upgrades add more damage or shield... do something.
Honestly at this point I don't get what you guys want to actually happen. Let me ask everyone this question honestly. Who do you think SHOULD be winning these tournaments that plays Protoss currently. Honestly, who do you think is good enough to win these tournaments?
the Korean Protoss players can't beat Dark. They've proven that for years and years and years now. Dark just eats them and if Dark won't Serral will. Do you think this kind of one sided dominance is because of racial balance? Honestly. Do you think the only reason herO and Classic can't beat Dark and Serral is because their race is weaker?
Sure Maru has been showing some weaknesses lately due to his injury (and perhaps other issues) but does anyone think that an in shape Maru or Cure or Clem should lose to herO and Classic in a Bo7 and the only reason it isn't happening is because of racial balance?
Classic: 5 time premier tournament champion herO: 8 time premier tournament champion
Why are you so certain that these players are just worse than Cure, Maru, Dark etc? The only argument for that would be their performance in the last few years but those has been affected by balance (actually herO even showed last year that he has the skill to win tournaments LOL). Historical precedent definitely indicates they should be competing for championships
No longer a valid thing to say, the balance seems fine at the moment. Zerg is probably the weakest race (but not by enough that they get to say something).
On December 20 2023 22:22 Nebuchad wrote: No longer a valid thing to say, the balance seems fine at the moment. Zerg is probably the weakest race (but not by enough that they get to say something).
Balance right now is fine, but (this is just one man's opinion) Protoss balance was horrible for 5+ years. All the incentive to play Protoss as a Pro was just sucked away and ignored for to long.
On December 20 2023 22:22 Nebuchad wrote: No longer a valid thing to say, the balance seems fine at the moment. Zerg is probably the weakest race (but not by enough that they get to say something).
Balance right now is fine, but (this is just one man's opinion) Protoss balance was horrible for 5+ years. All the incentive to play Protoss as a Pro was just sucked away and ignored for to long.
On December 20 2023 22:22 Nebuchad wrote: No longer a valid thing to say, the balance seems fine at the moment. Zerg is probably the weakest race (but not by enough that they get to say something).
PvZ at dh was 46% and tvz was at 43% or smth overall i dont think zerg is anywhere near the weakest race.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/disciple/PX/qqzealot2.jpg)
