EPTSemi-standard Protoss Crying Post - Page 16
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12465 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
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darklycid
3544 Posts
On August 20 2024 20:39 Nebuchad wrote: I think the problem is already fixed, protoss used to be very underpowered but now the balance is mostly fine. The only data point that we don't have a ton of information on is Maxpax vs Serral, but herO did 2-3 vs Serral and he could have won that series so I imagine Maxpax has a shot too. It makes a lot of sense that our odds of winning a live event decrease when Maxpax doesn't participate. I think the biggest issues are cetain phases of the game just being not really nice to watch/play esp stuff like pvz super lategame when it ever happens (yay infestor viper vs skytoss storm) and pvt when the mass lib phase is being reached and you have the toss always try to get disruptor hits in and disengage. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
On August 20 2024 20:26 ejozl wrote: Protoss hasn't won a premier ever since the same year that the cabal made their first patch in 2022. I shouldn't be surprised given that some members of the "community" balance council played under the <TossOP> clantag.  More seriously, the economic/game design changes made when Legacy of the Void was released definitely hurt Protoss the most. You can tell from how many band-aids Blizzard has had to slap on Protoss just to get the race into a playable state, and even the band-aids have changed massively over the years. I think you'd have to redesign the race from the ground up to address that, and that simply isn't going to happen. It's basically a race of gimmicks held together by other gimmicks! I'm just glad that the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit remains incredibly fun to play on ladder! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26857 Posts
On August 20 2024 21:37 MJG wrote: I shouldn't be surprised given that some members of the "community" balance council played under the <TossOP> clantag. More seriously, the economic/game design changes made when Legacy of the Void was released definitely hurt Protoss the most. You can tell from how many band-aids Blizzard has had to slap on Protoss just to get the race into a playable state, and even the band-aids have changed massively over the years. I think you'd have to redesign the race from the ground up to address that, and that simply isn't going to happen. It's basically a race of gimmicks held together by other gimmicks! I'm just glad that the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit remains incredibly fun to play on ladder! Isn’t Harstem on it too? I actually think balance is maybe better than when Trap was making multiple GSL finals, won two Super Tournaments, a Dreamhack etc. Going back to what ejozl said, sure Protoss aren’t winning many tournaments, but what tournaments should they be winning? herO is the exception, very much from the rule. No other player has returned to being a champ contender after military service. Stats and Classic show flashes, they’re clearly not the players they once were. Zest is away, Zoun was gradually getting there, made a ST final, he’s gone. Parting’s also gone, Trap’s only just back. MaxPax doesn’t play offline tournaments. I do agree with yourself on core design too, for sure. Equally I think the actual balance is good enough that if they had a few more in-shape championship contender level players you’d see those results pick up. herO hasn’t exactly underperformed in these big events either. Katowice he got out of the group of death, only to immediately run into Cure in playoffs (if memory serves). Here he took many notable scalps and made a Ro4. Hardly a catastrophe | ||
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angry_maia
331 Posts
disruptors are intrinsically high variance units with an all or nothing damage type. imo the problem is with protoss isn't that it is underpowered but rather that it lacks consistency. to me the difference between hero and clem isn't so much that clem crushes hero in games (outside of this tournament), but rather that clem can reliably beat lower rated players while hero will reasonably frequently lose to them (just look at the past few GSLs). | ||
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jodljodl
180 Posts
On August 20 2024 22:22 angry_maia wrote: [...] disruptors are intrinsically high variance units with an all or nothing damage type. [...] I totally agree. But I have the impression that counter micro to negate nova damage improved way more than the micro and army movement when using disruptors. Of course it's probably super hard but so are many things in sc2. I feel it's very rare to see a protoss use and time multiple novas to enable and cover for example offensive stalker actions. Also I think disruptor plus templar make a good combo by covering forward disruptors via storm. I actually am of the opinion that (big/diverse) army control is where top protoss can still improve a lot. For example, how often do you see a colossus trailing behind starting to shot a cc while the charge into the terran base is still ongoing, the terran hangs on by a thread and in the end wins the game with the follow up counter aggression? The Colossus is often a key unit in fights and thus to micro it properly offers a lot of rewards. For some reason I think of tank micro vs banelings to compare it to. I don't say this is true, just an impression I have for quite some time now. Also, of course, it's probably very, very hard. And, of course, I'm a noob  | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
HerO rly outmicros everyone if you look in this tournament. Hero vs. cure felt like maxpax vs. soul. With little better balance hero would more consistently beat maru instead of the other way round. Only the young guns are a threat for him, maxpax, reynor, clem and serral. But he still never wins the premiers, barring that one time. | ||
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