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On December 21 2023 18:18 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2023 18:04 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2023 17:22 Harris1st wrote:On December 20 2023 21:04 MJG wrote:
@Vindicare:
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated. And then Protoss still lose to Terran and whine about it. Balance on a greater scale through all matchups and all game phases seems pretty decent right now. Protoss needs some new blood (probably not happening) since pretty much all Protoss players are returnees (Koreans) or old school veterans (Europe) If someone could crunch the numbers I’d be very interested My instinct is that Protoss is potent but fragile, and this fragility is exposed the longer a series is due to them being heavily reliant on gambits and trickery. You can’t turn up and do a Serral or a Maru and yeah have a few pocket builds but largely just do your thing and outplay people with raw mechanics. Thus Protoss can be hugely overrepresented at GM level (Bo1), put up decent matchup stats in many a tournament (often on the back of Bo3s in a group phase) and generally not win tournaments as often because we’re into Bo5 or Bo7 territory. I think the lack of new blood is also a factor but I mean, it’s not like much of the cream of the Terran or Zerg crop are new faces either. Well, Reynors Protoss recently won vs Serral in a 35 min macro match so that gotta mean something right?
Map good
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Northern Ireland25688 Posts
On December 21 2023 18:18 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2023 18:04 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2023 17:22 Harris1st wrote:On December 20 2023 21:04 MJG wrote:
@Vindicare:
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated. And then Protoss still lose to Terran and whine about it. Balance on a greater scale through all matchups and all game phases seems pretty decent right now. Protoss needs some new blood (probably not happening) since pretty much all Protoss players are returnees (Koreans) or old school veterans (Europe) If someone could crunch the numbers I’d be very interested My instinct is that Protoss is potent but fragile, and this fragility is exposed the longer a series is due to them being heavily reliant on gambits and trickery. You can’t turn up and do a Serral or a Maru and yeah have a few pocket builds but largely just do your thing and outplay people with raw mechanics. Thus Protoss can be hugely overrepresented at GM level (Bo1), put up decent matchup stats in many a tournament (often on the back of Bo3s in a group phase) and generally not win tournaments as often because we’re into Bo5 or Bo7 territory. I think the lack of new blood is also a factor but I mean, it’s not like much of the cream of the Terran or Zerg crop are new faces either. Well, Reynors Protoss recently won vs Serral in a 35 min macro match so that gotta mean something right?
How does Reynor, who clearly has a pro level PvZ, to the degree that Solar considers it some of the best around, beating Serral in one game go against what I said?
As I said I’m going off intuition, and intuition is often wrong so I’d be interested to see the numbers and what Protoss win rates look like in Bo1, Bo3 and Bo5/7 and see if they’re stable over a long period, my instinct is that there’s a drop off and that’s due to racial strengths and weaknesses, but if it’s not the case, or if someone else has an alternative hypothesis I’d be very interested to hear it
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Wasn't meant to go against anything you said in particular. Just to throw in that if Reynor or someone new, similar skilled would go tryhard on Protoss there are possibilites. Especially with the Reynor style of a zerging Protoss which is IMO not that build / trick dependant but very APM / speed dependant
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On December 21 2023 19:11 Harris1st wrote:
Wasn't meant to go against anything you said in particular. Just to throw in that if Reynor or someone new, similar skilled would go tryhard on Protoss there are possibilites. Especially with the Reynor style of a zerging Protoss which is IMO not that build / trick dependant but very APM / speed dependant
Okay why the hell are ppl calling it reynor Style when that is the herO Style that Made him win tournaments when He came back, also what makes you think herO aint as skilled when He Has shown He was able to win Premier Events before.
It's kinda maddening to read some Takes Here.
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I'm an ardent BW follower but have next to nothing knowledge about SC2 meta, but from reading over the years from ppl in the SC2 community it always strikes me how staggeringly similar the two games are re Protoss.
On players:
- is the predominant race at low levels but has the least success at pro level
- is considered the easiest race to play (the "ape" race)
- "Protoss pros are just not as good as Zerg and Terran pros"
On gameplay:
- relies heavily on Gateway units and some mid game power units, can't compete with Zerg and Terran in the late game (if not accumulating a significant advantage earlier)
- has the least ability to come back
- relies on trickery/gambling the most to earn an advantage, can't just play straight up macro and outpower Zerg and Terran
- has vastly different units and styles, leading to Protoss players being good at different things, instead of all players (relatively) focusing and mastering on one (or fewer) thing like Zerg and Terran
- has decent win rate overall (but still the worst among 3 races), but tends to fall apart in tournaments when longer series Bo3/5/7 comes to play
When you have such similarities between the two games then it very likely goes back to the core of how each race functions. Like, Terran relies on the ranged and heavy firepower of a critical mass. Zerg relies on pure number from the unstoppable macro engine. And Protoss relies on the trickery and magic of some specific units. Among them, one style has to be more/less successful than the others, and as we have seen the same trends in two different games with 30+ years of history combined, I think it's safe to say the root of the problem is fundamental design.
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On December 21 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
I'm an ardent BW follower but have next to nothing knowledge about SC2 meta, but from reading over the years from ppl in the SC2 community it always strikes me how staggeringly similar the two games are re Protoss.
On players:
- is the predominant race at low levels but has the least success at pro level
- is considered the easiest race to play (the "ape" race)
- "Protoss pros are just not as good as Zerg and Terran pros"
On gameplay:
- relies heavily on Gateway units and some mid game power units, can't compete with Zerg and Terran in the late game (if not accumulating a significant advantage earlier)
- has the least ability to come back
- relies on trickery/gambling the most to earn an advantage, can't just play straight up macro and outpower Zerg and Terran
- has vastly different units and styles, leading to Protoss players being good at different things, instead of all players (relatively) focusing and mastering on one (or fewer) thing like Zerg and Terran
- has decent win rate overall (but still the worst among 3 races), but tends to fall apart in tournaments when longer series Bo3/5/7 comes to play
When you have such similarities between the two games then it very likely goes back to the core of how each race functions. Like, Terran relies on the ranged and heavy firepower of a critical mass. Zerg relies on pure number from the unstoppable macro engine. And Protoss relies on the trickery and magic of some specific units. Among them, one style has to be more/less successful than the others, and as we have seen the same trends in two different games with 30+ years of history combined, I think it's safe to say the root of the problem is fundamental design.
It's a shame we don't have something like this absolutely amazing BW thread for SC2.
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On December 21 2023 18:18 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2023 18:04 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2023 17:22 Harris1st wrote:On December 20 2023 21:04 MJG wrote:
@Vindicare:
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated. And then Protoss still lose to Terran and whine about it. Balance on a greater scale through all matchups and all game phases seems pretty decent right now. Protoss needs some new blood (probably not happening) since pretty much all Protoss players are returnees (Koreans) or old school veterans (Europe) If someone could crunch the numbers I’d be very interested My instinct is that Protoss is potent but fragile, and this fragility is exposed the longer a series is due to them being heavily reliant on gambits and trickery. You can’t turn up and do a Serral or a Maru and yeah have a few pocket builds but largely just do your thing and outplay people with raw mechanics. Thus Protoss can be hugely overrepresented at GM level (Bo1), put up decent matchup stats in many a tournament (often on the back of Bo3s in a group phase) and generally not win tournaments as often because we’re into Bo5 or Bo7 territory. I think the lack of new blood is also a factor but I mean, it’s not like much of the cream of the Terran or Zerg crop are new faces either. Well, Reynors Protoss recently won vs Serral in a 35 min macro match so that gotta mean something right?
I mean, it's not like Reynor randomly rolled Protoss, he's semi-consistently practicing it for 1.5 years now. Also winning a single map isn't that special, even Showtime won a map against Serral in 4 out of the last 7 series they played
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On December 21 2023 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2023 18:18 Harris1st wrote:On December 21 2023 18:04 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2023 17:22 Harris1st wrote:On December 20 2023 21:04 MJG wrote:
@Vindicare:
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated. And then Protoss still lose to Terran and whine about it. Balance on a greater scale through all matchups and all game phases seems pretty decent right now. Protoss needs some new blood (probably not happening) since pretty much all Protoss players are returnees (Koreans) or old school veterans (Europe) If someone could crunch the numbers I’d be very interested My instinct is that Protoss is potent but fragile, and this fragility is exposed the longer a series is due to them being heavily reliant on gambits and trickery. You can’t turn up and do a Serral or a Maru and yeah have a few pocket builds but largely just do your thing and outplay people with raw mechanics. Thus Protoss can be hugely overrepresented at GM level (Bo1), put up decent matchup stats in many a tournament (often on the back of Bo3s in a group phase) and generally not win tournaments as often because we’re into Bo5 or Bo7 territory. I think the lack of new blood is also a factor but I mean, it’s not like much of the cream of the Terran or Zerg crop are new faces either. Well, Reynors Protoss recently won vs Serral in a 35 min macro match so that gotta mean something right? I mean, it's not like Reynor randomly rolled Protoss, he's semi-consistently practicing it for 1.5 years now. Also winning a single map isn't that special, even Showtime won a map against Serral in 4 out of the last 7 series they played
I did not check all the games (obviously) but my gut feeling says that when Serral (or any other top macro late game Zerg) loses to Protoss, it's because of a timing attack that either crippled or killed and not because of a 35 min macro showdown.
Just a gut feeling though.
On another note, while thinking about that matchup, a lot of Protoss lose cause they had one or two holes in their defenses and let Zerglings in the mineral line. Now a lot of Protoss try runbys with Zealots and sometimes the odd warpprims to the main. What stops Protoss players to have like 2-4 warpprims and a ton of gateways to do this simultaneously in multiple base like Terran does with Medivacs? Zerglings suck vs Zealots, Banelings are expensive and Roaches have to be micro'ed which gets difficult in 2-4 places at once.
Just thinking out loud. Maybe a stupid thought.
Also on the note of Reynor style Protoss. Yes other Protoss do this. I think Zest made it popular even before herO? Not sure. Lets just call it the swarmy Protoss style 
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Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, 2023 appears to be the first year in SC2 history where Protoss has not won a single premier-level tournament. Which, I don't know, I agree fundamentally with Lambo that it doesn't really matter whether or not Protoss players are worse than Zerg and Terran, fundamentally it's not good for the scene player- and spectator- wise for there to be less matchup diversity in tournaments and for it to feel like one race doesn't have a chance to win tournaments. I find myself watching later stages of tournaments where there are no Protoss less, because I eventually get tired of TvZ.
Unlike most Sad Protoss, though, I don't think the problem is that fundamental or hopeless. It's probably true that Protoss in both BW and SC2 is also going to be at least a little weaker in longer series and tournaments due to design, but it's also clear if you look at the history of SC2 that Protoss has been able to compete very well over the years.
The problem at this stage in the game is clearly (clearly!) not Warp Gate (proposals to nerf Warp Gate or make Gateway units stronger have been around since 2010 and are probably my most hated SC2 meme). Gatewayman styles reliant on the power of Warp Gate are one of the main things keeping Protoss competitive at the moment, and they're also extremely dynamic and fun to watch. Taking that away from Protoss would be utterly devastating and pointless and also terribly un-fun.
It's largely a few "shatter points" of fragility where Protoss can just rapidly die even after getting very far ahead due to losing a few power units or not having strong enough defense (due to Overcharge nerfs) or losing all their workers to things like Widow Mines or losing the one Warp Prism or being over-reliant in the late game on inconsistent units like Disruptors. PvZ is largely in a good place design and even balance-wise, but PvT is just an incredibly frustrating matchup to watch at the pro level.
If there's a fundamental underlying problem, imo, it's simply that Protoss has been consistently undertuned throughout LotV due to memories of the strength of Protoss all-ins and deathballs in HotS and WoL. Everyone remembers when Colossus was dominant and un-fun and death-ball-y, so no one wants to buff Colossus even when they're self-evidently fragile and both races have strong counters to them at multiple stages of the game. Everyone remembers MC and sOs winning whole tournaments off of repeated Stalker all-ins, so no one wants to buff Stalkers or Zealots even in late game and even when it's clear that Zealot and Stalker all-ins have simply not been a big problem for a very long while.
But fundamentally Protoss and especially Protoss aggression is just weaker with the economy model of LotV and we're no longer in a world where a minor buff to a Gateway unit or a Robo unit would lead at the pro level to unstoppable deathballs or all-ins that would have players tearing their hair out. Zerg and Terran balance changes have felt perfectly comfortable buffing already strong units and risking powerful all-ins, but for whatever reason that hasn't been true for Protoss.
But with all those things a few targeted buffs and nerfs could honestly do the trick just fine. The last patch helped a lot and moved in the right direction, but it's clear that it wasn't enough, especially in PvT. Small buffs to a few Gateway units would be simple and have a big impact (if you don't want to buff Zealots or Stalkers, the proposals to make Sentries more useful and buff guardian shield seems like a good idea). Some kind of small nerf to Widow Mines vs Protoss would also not be gamebreaking. Hell, there are probably at least a half dozen Protoss units (Immortals! Phoenix! Sentries! et cetera) you could give minor buffs too and it wouldn't break anything.
It's perfectly possible that the problem will solve itself eventually with maps and creativity, but the Balance Council should think seriously about plugging a few holes in Protoss. Ultimately, not just for Protoss, but for the good of the scene overall. We need at least a few Protoss champions next year.
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On December 21 2023 21:49 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2023 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On December 21 2023 18:18 Harris1st wrote:On December 21 2023 18:04 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2023 17:22 Harris1st wrote:On December 20 2023 21:04 MJG wrote:
@Vindicare:
If I absolutely had to suggest a minor change then I'd modify the Viper so that Abduct can't be used on Massive units. I personally believe that the Viper is too good at single-handedly dismantling late-game Protoss armies and that some of that power needs to be taken away.
But like I said earlier, the fact that Protoss is so dependent on power-units is the real problem, and that would require a major overhaul of the race to fix, which we both know isn't going to happen. Que sera sera. I'll just continue turning off major tournaments once all the Protoss players are eliminated. And then Protoss still lose to Terran and whine about it. Balance on a greater scale through all matchups and all game phases seems pretty decent right now. Protoss needs some new blood (probably not happening) since pretty much all Protoss players are returnees (Koreans) or old school veterans (Europe) If someone could crunch the numbers I’d be very interested My instinct is that Protoss is potent but fragile, and this fragility is exposed the longer a series is due to them being heavily reliant on gambits and trickery. You can’t turn up and do a Serral or a Maru and yeah have a few pocket builds but largely just do your thing and outplay people with raw mechanics. Thus Protoss can be hugely overrepresented at GM level (Bo1), put up decent matchup stats in many a tournament (often on the back of Bo3s in a group phase) and generally not win tournaments as often because we’re into Bo5 or Bo7 territory. I think the lack of new blood is also a factor but I mean, it’s not like much of the cream of the Terran or Zerg crop are new faces either. Well, Reynors Protoss recently won vs Serral in a 35 min macro match so that gotta mean something right? I mean, it's not like Reynor randomly rolled Protoss, he's semi-consistently practicing it for 1.5 years now. Also winning a single map isn't that special, even Showtime won a map against Serral in 4 out of the last 7 series they played I did not check all the games (obviously) but my gut feeling says that when Serral (or any other top macro late game Zerg) loses to Protoss, it's because of a timing attack that either crippled or killed and not because of a 35 min macro showdown. Just a gut feeling though.
35 minute macro showdown on a map extremely good for late game Protoss where you can't even die early on. I don't think that's a more "pure" indicator of skill than a timing attack. Reynor specifically said he tried it only because of the map and didn't attempt it on any other map. Usually the map gets vetoed in PvZ which is why we haven't seen other Protosses do it
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It's a very strange opinion to discount or disregard what Reynor is doing regarding this topic.
In THEORY, the best way to understand the true balance of the races would be to observe someone with identical skills at all three races play against others at the elite level. Obviously this is impossible, but what Reynor is doing is the closest thing we will see.
1. His Play. Facts are (1) he is better at zerg than he is protoss, (2) he would be better at protoss if he had been playing it as his main race over his career instead of zerg, (3) he and other pro's have said he doesn't have a great understanding of the complexity of the protoss race and actual builds as others playing protoss at this level. My opinions are he would have won a similar number of premier tournaments if he had choosen protoss instead of zerg and he is showing it's primarily a skill gap in players why we're not seeing protoss tournament wins.
Discounting his wins are bizarre. "It was the map". What a stupid thing to say. I'd love to see protoss (or really anyone else) practice some zerg and take on Maru because the map is a zerg map. "Winning a single map isn't that special". It's freaking Serral. His career record against protoss is insane. Harstem is not top level, but he frequently states that he hasn't taken a map off serral in a tournament since 2017 I believe. "Timing attack is a more "pure" skill indicator". In one way, but this is exactly the point that proves Reynor would be a monster if he was an actual protoss. His build orders are not tight and he doesn't have the experience to play that way, yet he can still win.
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
Reasonable to have opinions on the topic. But when Reynor is doing something we've never seen before that seems pretty relevant to the conversation, it sure seems like balance whining when people pretend it doesn't matter.
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was Reynor's win on teh "its the map" match.... was it the result of a timing push?
On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote:
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
intersting points.
Actions always speak louder than words.
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On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote:
It's a very strange opinion to discount or disregard what Reynor is doing regarding this topic.
In THEORY, the best way to understand the true balance of the races would be to observe someone with identical skills at all three races play against others at the elite level. Obviously this is impossible, but what Reynor is doing is the closest thing we will see.
1. His Play. Facts are (1) he is better at zerg than he is protoss, (2) he would be better at protoss if he had been playing it as his main race over his career instead of zerg, (3) he and other pro's have said he doesn't have a great understanding of the complexity of the protoss race and actual builds as others playing protoss at this level. My opinions are he would have won a similar number of premier tournaments if he had choosen protoss instead of zerg and he is showing it's primarily a skill gap in players why we're not seeing protoss tournament wins.
Discounting his wins are bizarre. "It was the map". What a stupid thing to say. I'd love to see protoss (or really anyone else) practice some zerg and take on Maru because the map is a zerg map. "Winning a single map isn't that special". It's freaking Serral. His career record against protoss is insane. Harstem is not top level, but he frequently states that he hasn't taken a map off serral in a tournament since 2017 I believe. "Timing attack is a more "pure" skill indicator". In one way, but this is exactly the point that proves Reynor would be a monster if he was an actual protoss. His build orders are not tight and he doesn't have the experience to play that way, yet he can still win.
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
Reasonable to have opinions on the topic. But when Reynor is doing something we've never seen before that seems pretty relevant to the conversation, it sure seems like balance whining when people pretend it doesn't matter.
What he is telling is that He doesnt Like zvz understandably so, and the map was very good for protoss, otherwise this is a bunch of nonsense in a Post. Also it would be more comparable to a toss Training zerg and swapping to it vs another toss on a heavy zerg favored map to avoid PvP and Not the hurr Durr lets See a toss winning a zvt vs Maru.
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On December 22 2023 01:49 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote:
It's a very strange opinion to discount or disregard what Reynor is doing regarding this topic.
In THEORY, the best way to understand the true balance of the races would be to observe someone with identical skills at all three races play against others at the elite level. Obviously this is impossible, but what Reynor is doing is the closest thing we will see.
1. His Play. Facts are (1) he is better at zerg than he is protoss, (2) he would be better at protoss if he had been playing it as his main race over his career instead of zerg, (3) he and other pro's have said he doesn't have a great understanding of the complexity of the protoss race and actual builds as others playing protoss at this level. My opinions are he would have won a similar number of premier tournaments if he had choosen protoss instead of zerg and he is showing it's primarily a skill gap in players why we're not seeing protoss tournament wins.
Discounting his wins are bizarre. "It was the map". What a stupid thing to say. I'd love to see protoss (or really anyone else) practice some zerg and take on Maru because the map is a zerg map. "Winning a single map isn't that special". It's freaking Serral. His career record against protoss is insane. Harstem is not top level, but he frequently states that he hasn't taken a map off serral in a tournament since 2017 I believe. "Timing attack is a more "pure" skill indicator". In one way, but this is exactly the point that proves Reynor would be a monster if he was an actual protoss. His build orders are not tight and he doesn't have the experience to play that way, yet he can still win.
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
Reasonable to have opinions on the topic. But when Reynor is doing something we've never seen before that seems pretty relevant to the conversation, it sure seems like balance whining when people pretend it doesn't matter. What he is telling is that He doesnt Like zvz understandably so, and the map was very good for protoss, otherwise this is a bunch of nonsense in a Post. Also it would be more comparable to a toss Training zerg and swapping to it vs another toss on a heavy zerg favored map to avoid PvP and Not the hurr Durr lets See a toss winning a zvt vs Maru.
Sorry. Have it your way. Let's see Classic win a z v p vs Hero or vice versa in a tournament with real money on the line.
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On December 21 2023 22:49 Captain Peabody wrote:
Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, 2023 appears to be the first year in SC2 history where Protoss has not won a single premier-level tournament. Which, I don't know, I agree fundamentally with Lambo that it doesn't really matter whether or not Protoss players are worse than Zerg and Terran, fundamentally it's not good for the scene player- and spectator- wise for there to be less matchup diversity in tournaments and for it to feel like one race doesn't have a chance to win tournaments. I find myself watching later stages of tournaments where there are no Protoss less, because I eventually get tired of TvZ.
Unlike most Sad Protoss, though, I don't think the problem is that fundamental or hopeless. It's probably true that Protoss in both BW and SC2 is also going to be at least a little weaker in longer series and tournaments due to design, but it's also clear if you look at the history of SC2 that Protoss has been able to compete very well over the years.
The problem at this stage in the game is clearly (clearly!) not Warp Gate (proposals to nerf Warp Gate or make Gateway units stronger have been around since 2010 and are probably my most hated SC2 meme). Gatewayman styles reliant on the power of Warp Gate are one of the main things keeping Protoss competitive at the moment, and they're also extremely dynamic and fun to watch. Taking that away from Protoss would be utterly devastating and pointless and also terribly un-fun.
It's largely a few "shatter points" of fragility where Protoss can just rapidly die even after getting very far ahead due to losing a few power units or not having strong enough defense (due to Overcharge nerfs) or losing all their workers to things like Widow Mines or losing the one Warp Prism or being over-reliant in the late game on inconsistent units like Disruptors. PvZ is largely in a good place design and even balance-wise, but PvT is just an incredibly frustrating matchup to watch at the pro level.
If there's a fundamental underlying problem, imo, it's simply that Protoss has been consistently undertuned throughout LotV due to memories of the strength of Protoss all-ins and deathballs in HotS and WoL. Everyone remembers when Colossus was dominant and un-fun and death-ball-y, so no one wants to buff Colossus even when they're self-evidently fragile and both races have strong counters to them at multiple stages of the game. Everyone remembers MC and sOs winning whole tournaments off of repeated Stalker all-ins, so no one wants to buff Stalkers or Zealots even in late game and even when it's clear that Zealot and Stalker all-ins have simply not been a big problem for a very long while.
But fundamentally Protoss and especially Protoss aggression is just weaker with the economy model of LotV and we're no longer in a world where a minor buff to a Gateway unit or a Robo unit would lead at the pro level to unstoppable deathballs or all-ins that would have players tearing their hair out. Zerg and Terran balance changes have felt perfectly comfortable buffing already strong units and risking powerful all-ins, but for whatever reason that hasn't been true for Protoss.
But with all those things a few targeted buffs and nerfs could honestly do the trick just fine. The last patch helped a lot and moved in the right direction, but it's clear that it wasn't enough, especially in PvT. Small buffs to a few Gateway units would be simple and have a big impact (if you don't want to buff Zealots or Stalkers, the proposals to make Sentries more useful and buff guardian shield seems like a good idea). Some kind of small nerf to Widow Mines vs Protoss would also not be gamebreaking. Hell, there are probably at least a half dozen Protoss units (Immortals! Phoenix! Sentries! et cetera) you could give minor buffs too and it wouldn't break anything.
It's perfectly possible that the problem will solve itself eventually with maps and creativity, but the Balance Council should think seriously about plugging a few holes in Protoss. Ultimately, not just for Protoss, but for the good of the scene overall. We need at least a few Protoss champions next year.
Well said, agree with all of this and also been trying to voice similar things recently.
Protoss lacks potency early on, other than 3-4 gate blink openers which could kill if you micro/read very well.
But other than that, anytime Protoss tries to do a "strong" push, it's ultimately not very scary but yet VERY committal and pretty all-in. Compare that to the flexibility of Terran and Zerg early pushes and how scary they are and how NOT all-in they are.
And totally agree on the Colossus as well. You could easily rework the damage for example from 10 (+5 vs Light) to 11 (+4 vs Light), and maybe also nerf/rework Abduct so that it only pulls Massive units half or 2/3 the distance.
Protoss is definitely undertuned (hence all the true memes about Protoss getting nerfed anytime they find success with something). PvT is roughly balanced? Oh let's heavily nerf Overcharge and make P very vulnerable early on and have a 40% winrate vs T. And only give tiny things to compensate that are definitely not enough at all. (Thankfully the current patch helped much more). They had a problem with Overcharge out-healing DPS, they couldn't even compensate by making Overcharge last 1 second longer or something. That's how undertuned/biased that change was.
On December 21 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
I'm an ardent BW follower but have next to nothing knowledge about SC2 meta, but from reading over the years from ppl in the SC2 community it always strikes me how staggeringly similar the two games are re Protoss.
On players:
- is the predominant race at low levels but has the least success at pro level
- is considered the easiest race to play (the "ape" race)
- "Protoss pros are just not as good as Zerg and Terran pros"
On gameplay:
- relies heavily on Gateway units and some mid game power units, can't compete with Zerg and Terran in the late game (if not accumulating a significant advantage earlier)
- has the least ability to come back
- relies on trickery/gambling the most to earn an advantage, can't just play straight up macro and outpower Zerg and Terran
- has vastly different units and styles, leading to Protoss players being good at different things, instead of all players (relatively) focusing and mastering on one (or fewer) thing like Zerg and Terran
- has decent win rate overall (but still the worst among 3 races), but tends to fall apart in tournaments when longer series Bo3/5/7 comes to play
When you have such similarities between the two games then it very likely goes back to the core of how each race functions. Like, Terran relies on the ranged and heavy firepower of a critical mass. Zerg relies on pure number from the unstoppable macro engine. And Protoss relies on the trickery and magic of some specific units. Among them, one style has to be more/less successful than the others, and as we have seen the same trends in two different games with 30+ years of history combined, I think it's safe to say the root of the problem is fundamental design.
Appreciate your reply, as someone who doesn't watch much BW (but likes it), the similitaries are really staggering and interesting, and definitely safe to make this conclusion.
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On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote:
It's a very strange opinion to discount or disregard what Reynor is doing regarding this topic.
In THEORY, the best way to understand the true balance of the races would be to observe someone with identical skills at all three races play against others at the elite level. Obviously this is impossible, but what Reynor is doing is the closest thing we will see.
1. His Play. Facts are (1) he is better at zerg than he is protoss, (2) he would be better at protoss if he had been playing it as his main race over his career instead of zerg, (3) he and other pro's have said he doesn't have a great understanding of the complexity of the protoss race and actual builds as others playing protoss at this level. My opinions are he would have won a similar number of premier tournaments if he had choosen protoss instead of zerg and he is showing it's primarily a skill gap in players why we're not seeing protoss tournament wins.
Discounting his wins are bizarre. "It was the map". What a stupid thing to say. I'd love to see protoss (or really anyone else) practice some zerg and take on Maru because the map is a zerg map. "Winning a single map isn't that special". It's freaking Serral. His career record against protoss is insane. Harstem is not top level, but he frequently states that he hasn't taken a map off serral in a tournament since 2017 I believe. "Timing attack is a more "pure" skill indicator". In one way, but this is exactly the point that proves Reynor would be a monster if he was an actual protoss. His build orders are not tight and he doesn't have the experience to play that way, yet he can still win.
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
Reasonable to have opinions on the topic. But when Reynor is doing something we've never seen before that seems pretty relevant to the conversation, it sure seems like balance whining when people pretend it doesn't matter.
Race picking on specific maps has been banned in starleagues since BW in the early 2000s otherwise we definitely would have seen what Reynors currently doing in the KR scene at some point. It was likely banned because it would have the potential to create very silly situations where we are watching two players off race against each other with no prep because they planned a snipe build.
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On December 22 2023 02:07 Herringbone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2023 01:49 darklycid wrote:On December 22 2023 01:28 Herringbone wrote:
It's a very strange opinion to discount or disregard what Reynor is doing regarding this topic.
In THEORY, the best way to understand the true balance of the races would be to observe someone with identical skills at all three races play against others at the elite level. Obviously this is impossible, but what Reynor is doing is the closest thing we will see.
1. His Play. Facts are (1) he is better at zerg than he is protoss, (2) he would be better at protoss if he had been playing it as his main race over his career instead of zerg, (3) he and other pro's have said he doesn't have a great understanding of the complexity of the protoss race and actual builds as others playing protoss at this level. My opinions are he would have won a similar number of premier tournaments if he had choosen protoss instead of zerg and he is showing it's primarily a skill gap in players why we're not seeing protoss tournament wins.
Discounting his wins are bizarre. "It was the map". What a stupid thing to say. I'd love to see protoss (or really anyone else) practice some zerg and take on Maru because the map is a zerg map. "Winning a single map isn't that special". It's freaking Serral. His career record against protoss is insane. Harstem is not top level, but he frequently states that he hasn't taken a map off serral in a tournament since 2017 I believe. "Timing attack is a more "pure" skill indicator". In one way, but this is exactly the point that proves Reynor would be a monster if he was an actual protoss. His build orders are not tight and he doesn't have the experience to play that way, yet he can still win.
2. What he is telling us. This is probably the most important thing and I don't see it brought up. Reynor knows the game better than everyone on this form. He is making the active choice to play protoss instead of z v z against elite players in big tournaments with real money on the line. He's telling us that he doesn't think Protoss is unable to win at the highest levels. If a race, that he is worse at, was unplayable at this level he wouldn't be playing it when the alternative is playing as a top 3 in the world zerg. Believe someone's actions over their words. This is way more relevant than the "Ghosts/Carriers/Banelings OP" noise that originates in bias.
Reasonable to have opinions on the topic. But when Reynor is doing something we've never seen before that seems pretty relevant to the conversation, it sure seems like balance whining when people pretend it doesn't matter. What he is telling is that He doesnt Like zvz understandably so, and the map was very good for protoss, otherwise this is a bunch of nonsense in a Post. Also it would be more comparable to a toss Training zerg and swapping to it vs another toss on a heavy zerg favored map to avoid PvP and Not the hurr Durr lets See a toss winning a zvt vs Maru. Sorry. Have it your way. Let's see Classic win a z v p vs Hero or vice versa in a tournament with real money on the line.
you mean a map? I mean none of the kr tosses are really playing offrace like reynor is so prob wont happen but could easily happen if they would do i bet (but they'd need to hate pvp like reynor does zvz).
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MaxPax not playing lans also hurts toss's results in general
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On December 22 2023 02:47 Locutus_ wrote:
MaxPax not playing lans also hurts toss's results in general
Imagine if Clem didnt play, and Maxpax played instead. Or if Serral didnt, and Maxpax played instead. We would surely be seeing more green and less of some other color painted in semifinals, at least, for sure.
Reynor also choosing to play toss some times tells something about balance
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EPT
