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honestly on ladder it seems i play 6protoss 3 terrans and maybe 1 zerg player (once in a while), it kinda getting ridiciouless with the amount of whine we are getting from toss, while 5k+ you are facing pretty much only toss and terran...
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On December 28 2023 15:33 dph114 wrote:
honestly on ladder it seems i play 6protoss 3 terrans and maybe 1 zerg player (once in a while), it kinda getting ridiciouless with the amount of whine we are getting from toss, while 5k+ you are facing pretty much only toss and terran...
So you would agree that with the large amounts of Protoss players, we should see a similar overrepresentation of Protoss at the very top if the game was perfectly balanced.
I know that you want to play the "Protoss is so strong, everyone can climb to my MMR with them, the best players are just worse and thus cannot win tournaments" card, but that is such an incredibly stupid argument that I am going to humor you in assuming that this is not what you were going for.
On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different.
Would it, though?
If we remove the 3 Protoss players with the best results in the last 4 years, we would be looking at exactly 0 Protoss Premier tournament victories outside of the NA regional tournaments. The same cannot be said about Zerg or Terran.
Similarly, if we remove the 3 best players of every race, the top 5 players would look like this:
Protoss: Showtime, Creator, Astrea, Nightmare, Skillous
Terran: Cure, Oliveira, Heromarine, Gumiho, Bunny
Zerg: Reynor, Shin, Lambo, Elazer, DRG
That is with the ranking taken off Aligulac. You could swap any of Dark/Reynor/Solar around to determine your top 3 Zerg alongside Serral, but it wouldn't make much of a difference. You could also swap out any of the Terrans for Spirit or Ryung, for example. Again, it wouldn't make much of a difference because you simply cannot do the same for Protoss.
Do you seriously think that in such an environment, Showtime and Creator would suddenly start winning Premier tournaments left and right?
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Maybe most casuals don't play Zerg because droning and massing Queens to victory isn't at all fun...
(At least BW Zerg has knife-edge moments that gives us off some thrills and chills even in imba matchups like ZvP)
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On December 28 2023 18:19 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 15:33 dph114 wrote:
honestly on ladder it seems i play 6protoss 3 terrans and maybe 1 zerg player (once in a while), it kinda getting ridiciouless with the amount of whine we are getting from toss, while 5k+ you are facing pretty much only toss and terran... So you would agree that with the large amounts of Protoss players, we should see a similar overrepresentation of Protoss at the very top if the game was perfectly balanced. I know that you want to play the "Protoss is so strong, everyone can climb to my MMR with them, the best players are just worse and thus cannot win tournaments" card, but that is such an incredibly stupid argument that I am going to humor you in assuming that this is not what you were going for.
Never said that, but there are far more terrans than tosses overall on ladder, so based on your claim that more of one race should produce more high level players, yet for some reason thats not the case and mid level pro play is dominated by toss.
To me personally it looks like the actual top level is dominated by few players, that are so far ahead of everyone else, that it literally doesnt matter how much you are going to buff the of races. Serral and Clem are miles ahead (rn) of everyone else and it doesnt matter what race they are playing.
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On December 29 2023 00:47 dph114 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 18:19 Nezgar wrote:On December 28 2023 15:33 dph114 wrote:
honestly on ladder it seems i play 6protoss 3 terrans and maybe 1 zerg player (once in a while), it kinda getting ridiciouless with the amount of whine we are getting from toss, while 5k+ you are facing pretty much only toss and terran... So you would agree that with the large amounts of Protoss players, we should see a similar overrepresentation of Protoss at the very top if the game was perfectly balanced. I know that you want to play the "Protoss is so strong, everyone can climb to my MMR with them, the best players are just worse and thus cannot win tournaments" card, but that is such an incredibly stupid argument that I am going to humor you in assuming that this is not what you were going for. Never said that, but there are far more terrans than tosses overall on ladder, so based on your claim that more of one race should produce more high level players, yet for some reason thats not the case and mid level pro play is dominated by toss. To me personally it looks like the actual top level is dominated by few players, that are so far ahead of everyone else, that it literally doesnt matter how much you are going to buff the of races. Serral and Clem are miles ahead (rn) of everyone else and it doesnt matter what race they are playing.
I do still think Protoss has low lows and not very high highs, and that it's a fragile and very punishing race at the top level, BUT -
I also do think that Protoss at a theoretical top top level, a level that's nearly unrealistic to achieve without someone with Serral/Maru mechanics and play as well as genius play like sOs, would be the strongest race. I think this because of the high potential of Protoss units, aggro/rush builds, as well as macro play, and that it's mainly limited by being too unrealistic to master everything (I feel you can be a top Zerg or Terran without mastering everything like you would have to as Protoss). And i think this even more after seeing someone with Reynor's skill and particularly high level of mechanics be able to play PvZ as good as he does. Like he isn't a protoss player, so yes sometimes he can make critical flubs like blinking his 12 stalkers down to try to pick off a muta vs Solar and losing them all, but aside from that his play is top level. So imagine if he did practice Protoss as his main race, what Protoss could be like. It was amazing watching him control 2 armies vs Serral on Radhuset, especially because Protoss armies already have SO many different units/abilities that it's hard to split and control each one so well.
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On December 28 2023 18:27 RKC wrote:
Maybe most casuals don't play Zerg because droning and massing Queens to victory isn't at all fun...
(At least BW Zerg has knife-edge moments that gives us off some thrills and chills even in imba matchups like ZvP)
More like understanding when you need to drone/scout/creep isn't always fun when you don't have thousands of games under your belt or Serral/Reynor level mechanics. And then dying to random ladder builds or death-balls because you read the game wrong. But sure, what you said--that accounts for the tremendous ladder imbalance.
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On December 29 2023 07:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 00:47 dph114 wrote:On December 28 2023 18:19 Nezgar wrote:On December 28 2023 15:33 dph114 wrote:
honestly on ladder it seems i play 6protoss 3 terrans and maybe 1 zerg player (once in a while), it kinda getting ridiciouless with the amount of whine we are getting from toss, while 5k+ you are facing pretty much only toss and terran... So you would agree that with the large amounts of Protoss players, we should see a similar overrepresentation of Protoss at the very top if the game was perfectly balanced. I know that you want to play the "Protoss is so strong, everyone can climb to my MMR with them, the best players are just worse and thus cannot win tournaments" card, but that is such an incredibly stupid argument that I am going to humor you in assuming that this is not what you were going for. Never said that, but there are far more terrans than tosses overall on ladder, so based on your claim that more of one race should produce more high level players, yet for some reason thats not the case and mid level pro play is dominated by toss. To me personally it looks like the actual top level is dominated by few players, that are so far ahead of everyone else, that it literally doesnt matter how much you are going to buff the of races. Serral and Clem are miles ahead (rn) of everyone else and it doesnt matter what race they are playing. I do still think Protoss has low lows and not very high highs, and that it's a fragile and very punishing race at the top level, BUT - I also do think that Protoss at a theoretical top top level, a level that's nearly unrealistic to achieve without someone with Serral/Maru mechanics and play as well as genius play like sOs, would be the strongest race. I think this because of the high potential of Protoss units, aggro/rush builds, as well as macro play, and that it's mainly limited by being too unrealistic to master everything (I feel you can be a top Zerg or Terran without mastering everything like you would have to as Protoss). And i think this even more after seeing someone with Reynor's skill and particularly high level of mechanics be able to play PvZ as good as he does. Like he isn't a protoss player, so yes sometimes he can make critical flubs like blinking his 12 stalkers down to try to pick off a muta vs Solar and losing them all, but aside from that his play is top level. So imagine if he did practice Protoss as his main race, what Protoss could be like. It was amazing watching him control 2 armies vs Serral on Radhuset, especially because Protoss armies already have SO many different units/abilities that it's hard to split and control each one so well.
This is an interesting take. In terms of innovative game play, the last major shift was when herO discovered and utilised 'Zerg Protoss' (Pure probing + rapidly expanding whilst relying on only gateway units to posture against Z and T). Fascinatingly enough he exhibited this style right after his military service and had decent success with it - quite an accomplishment!
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess.
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You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys.
To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck.
Diverse race always means less balance.
This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness.
Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.
On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess.
AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks.
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Some of the issues for Protoss that makes it hard to win is
1) chrono boost has diminished returns as the game goes on. Absolutely useless in the late game. While as injects/scan/mules are op in comparison in the late stages
2) once Protoss suffers any economy damage the game is pretty much over. Whereas is the Zergs or terrans loses 20-30 workers they are still in the game
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On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks.
We are having fun discussing serious matters 
Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss?
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On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss?
good question. inertia perhaps?
AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up.
If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there.
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On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there.
It might be because AlphaStar's transition was into blink stalker micro in a ~270 degree arc in a space that took at least three screens to cover, and human players can't do that.
More realistically, its strategy space was limited to the PvP mirror, and iirc constrained to playing only against other AlphaStar lines during its learning process. So I don't know that it ever had to try its weird mass probe opening against something like a Dark Templar rush. And it definitely wasn't tested against early pool builds from Zerg.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different.
Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course!
On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there.
AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted.
It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players.
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United States1907 Posts
On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players.
2017-18 Stats was great (top 15 all time), but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago.
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On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great, but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago.
Yeah but Rain had already declined a bit by the end of HotS. You of all people should know this as you wrote this Rain was long past his initial peak era of 2012-2013, when he became the first KeSPA elephant to truly master and start the Association's conquest of the SC2 scene. After a dominant stretch where he won the OSL and WCS Asia, he had a far less impressive 2014 where he only managed a few top-four finishes at best. in the Maru vs Rain game analysis post. So it's far from guaranteed he'd have made a significant difference if he sticked with sc2.
Also small correction, Inno also made a 3rd finals (vs Soulkey) and Classic also won 2 korean leagues during that period (gsl/ssl).
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United States1907 Posts
On December 31 2023 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great, but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago. Yeah but Rain had already declined a bit by the end of HotS. You of all people should know this as you wrote this Show nested quote +Rain was long past his initial peak era of 2012-2013, when he became the first KeSPA elephant to truly master and start the Association's conquest of the SC2 scene. After a dominant stretch where he won the OSL and WCS Asia, he had a far less impressive 2014 where he only managed a few top-four finishes at best. in the Maru vs Rain game analysis post. So it's far from guaranteed he'd have made a significant difference if he sticked with sc2. Also small correction, Inno also made a 3rd finals (vs Soulkey) and Classic also won 2 korean leagues during that period (gsl/ssl).
In the six months before the end of hots, Rain won gsl, made the seminfinals of ssl (lost 3-4 to herO) and won HSC (whatever that means to you). Rain surely would have beaten ByuL again if he had advanced, so i see no reason why you got that impression.
And you are correct with the Classic/inno updates. writing posts about 10 year old sc2 ten minutes after waking up not ideal.
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On December 31 2023 23:20 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great, but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago. Yeah but Rain had already declined a bit by the end of HotS. You of all people should know this as you wrote this Rain was long past his initial peak era of 2012-2013, when he became the first KeSPA elephant to truly master and start the Association's conquest of the SC2 scene. After a dominant stretch where he won the OSL and WCS Asia, he had a far less impressive 2014 where he only managed a few top-four finishes at best. in the Maru vs Rain game analysis post. So it's far from guaranteed he'd have made a significant difference if he sticked with sc2. Also small correction, Inno also made a 3rd finals (vs Soulkey) and Classic also won 2 korean leagues during that period (gsl/ssl). In the six months before the end of hots, Rain won gsl, made the seminfinals of ssl (lost 3-4 to herO) and won HSC (whatever that means to you). Rain surely would have beaten ByuL again if he had advanced, so i see no reason why you got that impression. And you are correct with the Classic/inno updates. writing posts about 10 year old sc2 ten minutes after waking up not ideal.
Yeah, Rain was great for sure, but if Zest and Classic struggled to replicate their HotS success in LotV I'm not sure I would have given Rain significantly higher chances. They all seemed to be at around the same level in HotS
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great (top 15 all time), but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago.
Oh I don’t forget :p I’m intrigued what he would have done in a parallel universe where Kespa BW continued as he’s a tremendous talent.
He usually gets my vote for a greatest StarCraft player across both titles, having won titles in both, but also in some style. Flash is a bit underrated as an SC2 player, he was still a top player just he was never going to be well, Flash and I feel people overlook him for not hitting those heights.
I wouldn’t doubt Rain’s abiiity, I just frankly feel Toss has often been quite weak in Legacy and hasn’t always suited his style either. SoS, with a completely different style didn’t hit the same heights either.
You’d probably see Protoss being more competitive at the top end if he had stayed, although nothing as occasionally dominant as a Mary or a Serral type
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United States1907 Posts
On December 31 2023 23:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2023 23:08 Mizenhauer wrote:On December 31 2023 02:59 WombaT wrote:On December 28 2023 05:36 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
I do wonder how different all of this would be if Rain had stuck with SC2 -- he seemed like he was on his way to being a GOAT candidate as a well-rounded, macro Protoss. I think one of the general points here, that 1-2 absolute outlier humans like a Serral or a Maru can make discussing overall racial balance tricky, is absolutely valid. Pull the top 3 players from every race and the scene would look WILDLY different. Rain was a monster but I don’t think he was considerably better at that style than Stats in his pomp. An extra player of that calibre would help of course! On December 31 2023 01:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 30 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote:On December 30 2023 00:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:You guys are so serious. Take a break and have a laugh guys. To me, the perspective here is all wrong. Attempting to Make a living on this game via winning pro events is less viable every quarter of every year. Relax , and just have fun. Treat the game as its creators originally intended in 1998. It is a never-perfectly-balanced fuster cluck. Diverse race always means less balance. This is how you have fun with an old game with a 25+ year history of greatness. Silly Stupid, Giggly Fun.On December 29 2023 21:36 AxiomB wrote:
Which makes me wonder - are there other highly effective styles of Protoss not yet discovered? Styles/ play patterns that could increase Protoss' winrate in majors? It is possible I guess. AlphaStar proved there are undiscovered styles. Its fast expand Protoss would be vulnerable to early attack. The AIs seemingly totally bizarre way of defending and mass accelerated probe building actually worked. The AI always lost a few probes to early aggression but still ended up with more probes and a better economy even DURING the attacks. We are having fun discussing serious matters Why do you think the top level players do not copy the fast expansion style of AlphaStar with Protoss? good question. inertia perhaps? AlphaStar was over building probes on 1 base and long distance mining before its 2nd base was up. If AlphaStar were still being funded it'd be finding new strats. There are new undiscovered strats out there. AlphaStar did some pretty nifty things can’t deny it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted. It did seem to have most of its successes via inhuman precision and calculus, or being extremely off-meta which is maybe why we didn’t see much adoption of its play styles by even the best human players. 2017-18 Stats was great (top 15 all time), but Rain won gsl, osl and reached the finals of another osl in less than four years. Only Inno and maru won 2 korean leagues (gsl/gsl and osl/ssl) respectively during that period (neither made a third finals). Rain also went over to BW post casting/surgery and almost immediately became a top tier player (including winning asl). He's one of the greatest natural talents in rts history, but people forget this when the games happened 10 years ago. Oh I don’t forget :p I’m intrigued what he would have done in a parallel universe where Kespa BW continued as he’s a tremendous talent. He usually gets my vote for a greatest StarCraft player across both titles, having won titles in both, but also in some style. Flash is a bit underrated as an SC2 player, he was still a top player just he was never going to be well, Flash and I feel people overlook him for not hitting those heights. I wouldn’t doubt Rain’s abiiity, I just frankly feel Toss has often been quite weak in Legacy and hasn’t always suited his style either. SoS, with a completely different style didn’t hit the same heights either. You’d probably see Protoss being more competitive at the top end if he had stayed, although nothing as occasionally dominant as a Mary or a Serral type
I agree with the general sentiment that Toss has been awful in Lotv. 2016-2018 Stats has to rank among the highest peaks of all time and it's only gotten worse since. I think Rain's versatility would have given him a shot at reaching those heights. He won OSL five months after making his SC2 debut and didn't waste much time winning ASL when he went back to BW.
On a separate note, a lot of Rain's wins are terrible games (because they are so one sided). He's right up there alongside Inno and Mvp when it comes to players who were so much better than their peers when at their best.
Lastly, sOs was never a particularly strong player mechanically. His fingers worked well at HotS speed, but he was pretty exposed in Lotv once things really started speeding up in 2017/18. Doesn't take away from his incredible achievements, but Lotv has done a similar thing to lots of players who relied on brains rather than dexterity.
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