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On February 13 2024 23:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Regarding Vipers and the Mothership in general. I've felt for a long time that the answer to the Mothership problem is to simply replace it with Arbiters. Scale down their abilities a bit and give Protoss a smaller version that is cheaper but also able to be produced in larger numbers.
This does 2 things. 1. It limits the hard counter capability of vipers to just eliminate the cloaking capability of the Mothership with one yank. Vipers would still be counters to Arbiters but it would require killing off more than one to completely disable the cloaking field.
2. It opens up Protoss late game by allowing you to use Recall with Arbiters like they had in Brood War. This ability would obviously require balancing, since it would be MUCH more powerful tactically on multiple Arbiters rather than one big Mothership. It should cost more energy and have a smaller effective radius.
Protoss' biggest main problem in late game scenarios is their over dependence on having a single deathball army. The Mothership exacerbates this problem to a hilarious degree, to the point where in the current state of the game it's simply a meme of a unit. We should be at least TRYING to open up options for Protoss to be able to operate smaller and self sufficient groups of units. Replacing the Mothership with Arbiters would do that, without giving Protoss anything new that they can abuse in the early game.
I agree with everything you said. Ideally Protoss should be redesigned to try to avoid the over reliance on one deathball army. Amazingly and somewhat frustratingly, BW has solved the same problem 25 years ago with Arbiters. A lot of SC2's attempt at deviating from BW often ended up backfiring, this is just one of them.
I just think at the very least Mothership is a very cool unit in concept, and it suits Protoss' style in world building. If they want to keep it at least they should try to keep and explore its uniqueness. Allowing the gigantic ultimate air unit to be pulled away by a tiny tentacle is just too comical and ridiculous I never understand how they refuse to fix it.
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Just revert the stalkers and let them 3 shot marines or revert the chargelot nerf. Those itself will help a lot in PVT which has been heavily terran favoured for years
Reduce the cost of immortal and prism so we have another opinion to threaten the Zerg. Or buff the carriers back
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On February 13 2024 23:42 jpg06051992 wrote:
PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
Both of these are very good changes.
Also wish FF required 2 Corrosive Biles to knock them down.
I agree with Viper not pulling MS. I haven't heard a good reason still for why it's so important for Zergs to be able to do that. I've heard some pros explain it but i still don't get it. At least make it so that if pulling a Heroic unit, it only pulls half distance.
I think Protoss doesn't need a full redesign, just some slight buffs would already go a huge way and probably be enough:
PvZ:
-Vipers can't pull MS, or pulls half distance. If pushing this further, then make it so Abduct pulls Massive units half distance, but possibly buff the energy slightly or buff it in some way to make up for it
-Neural Parasite duration is only half when used on Massive unit. You can rebalance the energy cost or compensate in some way.
-Ravagers need 2 Bile to break 1 FF 1 Bile cannot break more than 1 FF. Your Forcefields will naturally touch each other in order to create a wall, and Bile is AOE. 1 Bile should not be able to break 2 FFs at once by aiming for the edge.
If taking this further, make it so that when used on buildings, it only hits 1 building at a time... OR the next change:
-FF can be used to shield a building from a Bile. This way you have a way to protect your Batteries and Overcharge a little if from not being insta sniped by Bile.
-Possibly, nerf Baneling building damage from 80 to 70 or something. I think it's kinda of whack that the natural counter to banelings is walling and static defense, but it has an alternate attack that is specifically strong against clumped buildings. This makes it harder to defend vs cracklings running around lategame.
PvT:
Even though I play Terran i have the least ideas here lol.
-Maybe you can buff Overcharge to last 1-2 seconds longer, since it got straight up nerfed because Terrans were whining that they should be able to just force their all-in and attack in without having to pull back and wait 10 secs.
(Even though it's pretty much always better and more worth it to wait it out vs the old stronger Overcharge if you can't snipe it...)
So if the reasoning is that Terrans felt they should be able to out-DPS the healing rate of Overcharge, then doesn't it makes sense to compensate for it in another way, like letting it last 1-2 seconds longer?
I know the balance council tried to compensate by doing things like giving Stasis Ward more sight range, slightly faster Observer and HT and Sentry movement, etc., but it still doesn't fill the gap in defense enough.
General:
-QoL AI change for Shield Battery: If there is a Overcharged Battery and another Battery, the Overcharged Battery should take priority in healing units so it doesn't get wasted. I've seen this happen pretty commonly in pro games where a vital unit would have lived, but didn't because the normal Battery started healing it thus not allowing the Overcharge Battery to heal it without manually stopping the normal Battery (and what pro has ever managed to do that?).
-Sentry damage reverted from 6 to 8. This is a tiny change and will slightly help Gateway armies. The reason it was nerfed way back in WoL is because at the time, it was believed by some pros that mutas were too weak vs sentries and lost vs them (lol). Well with the current form of Muta, Protoss is having a lot of trouble vs them. A couple extra damage will not really solve anything but it also won't hurt anything it shouldn't, so why not? It also makes them slightly more useful even if they get EMP'd.
-Buff Glaive in a way that makes Adepts scale a little more past early/mid game. Adept based comps like in PvT are cool and unique and we should encourage unique tactics and comps (using the phase shift to splash tanks or force them to unsiege and stuff). Previously, Adepts were nerfed because all-ins they were too strong vs Terran. Now that the Terran has the new Cyclone which is very easily accessible and also hard counters Adepts, there is no worry in buffing Glaives. Also, Glaive pushes are known to not be particularly threatening to Zerg anyways, and a failed push can lead to a Zerg still coming back from a 25 vs 45 worker deficit to launch an all-in and win. Pretty wild if you ask me.
Maybe Glaive can also give +1 range or +10 HP or shield or something.
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Northern Ireland25089 Posts
On February 14 2024 00:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 23:42 jpg06051992 wrote:
PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
Both of these are very good changes.
Also wish FF required 2 Corrosive Biles to knock them down. I agree with Viper not pulling MS. I haven't heard a good reason still for why it's so important for Zergs to be able to do that. I've heard some pros explain it but i still don't get it. At least make it so that if pulling a Heroic unit, it only pulls half distance. I think Protoss doesn't need a full redesign, just some slight buffs would already go a huge way and probably be enough: PvZ: -Vipers can't pull MS, or pulls half distance. If pushing this further, then make it so Abduct pulls Massive units half distance, but possibly buff the energy slightly or buff it in some way to make up for it -Neural Parasite duration is only half when used on Massive unit. You can rebalance the energy cost or compensate in some way. - Ravagers need 2 Bile to break 1 FF 1 Bile cannot break more than 1 FF. Your Forcefields will naturally touch each other in order to create a wall, and Bile is AOE. 1 Bile should not be able to break 2 FFs at once by aiming for the edge. If taking this further, make it so that when used on buildings, it only hits 1 building at a time... OR the next change: -FF can be used to shield a building from a Bile. This way you have a way to protect your Batteries and Overcharge a little if from not being insta sniped by Bile. -Possibly, nerf Baneling building damage from 80 to 70 or something. I think it's kinda of whack that the natural counter to banelings is walling and static defense, but it has an alternate attack that is specifically strong against clumped buildings. This makes it harder to defend vs cracklings running around lategame. PvT: Even though I play Terran i have the least ideas here lol. -Maybe you can buff Overcharge to last 1-2 seconds longer, since it got straight up nerfed because Terrans were whining that they should be able to just force their all-in and attack in without having to pull back and wait 10 secs. (Even though it's pretty much always better and more worth it to wait it out vs the old stronger Overcharge if you can't snipe it...) So if the reasoning is that Terrans felt they should be able to out-DPS the healing rate of Overcharge, then doesn't it makes sense to compensate for it in another way, like letting it last 1-2 seconds longer? I know the balance council tried to compensate by doing things like giving Stasis Ward more sight range, slightly faster Observer and HT and Sentry movement, etc., but it still doesn't fill the gap in defense enough. General: -QoL AI change for Shield Battery: If there is a Overcharged Battery and another Battery, the Overcharged Battery should take priority in healing units so it doesn't get wasted. I've seen this happen pretty commonly in pro games where a vital unit would have lived, but didn't because the normal Battery started healing it thus not allowing the Overcharge Battery to heal it without manually stopping the normal Battery (and what pro has ever managed to do that?). -Sentry damage reverted from 6 to 8. This is a tiny change and will slightly help Gateway armies. The reason it was nerfed way back in WoL is because at the time, it was believed by some pros that mutas were too weak vs sentries and lost vs them (lol). Well with the current form of Muta, Protoss is having a lot of trouble vs them. A couple extra damage will not really solve anything but it also won't hurt anything it shouldn't, so why not? It also makes them slightly more useful even if they get EMP'd. -Buff Glaive in a way that makes Adepts scale a little more past early/mid game. Adept based comps like in PvT are cool and unique and we should encourage unique tactics and comps (using the phase shift to splash tanks or force them to unsiege and stuff). Previously, Adepts were nerfed because all-ins they were too strong vs Terran. Now that the Terran has the new Cyclone which is very easily accessible and also hard counters Adepts, there is no worry in buffing Glaives. Also, Glaive pushes are known to not be particularly threatening to Zerg anyways, and a failed push can lead to a Zerg still coming back from a 25 vs 45 worker deficit to launch an all-in and win. Pretty wild if you ask me. Maybe Glaive can also give +1 range or +10 HP or shield or something.
Agree with a bunch here, I especially like the idea that FF can bolster a building’s defence
Especially considering sentries are way less obligatory than they used to be, I can’t see this pushing the needle too much
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On February 14 2024 00:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 23:42 jpg06051992 wrote:
PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
Both of these are very good changes.
Also wish FF required 2 Corrosive Biles to knock them down. I agree with Viper not pulling MS. I haven't heard a good reason still for why it's so important for Zergs to be able to do that. I've heard some pros explain it but i still don't get it. At least make it so that if pulling a Heroic unit, it only pulls half distance. I think Protoss doesn't need a full redesign, just some slight buffs would already go a huge way and probably be enough: PvZ: -Vipers can't pull MS, or pulls half distance. If pushing this further, then make it so Abduct pulls Massive units half distance, but possibly buff the energy slightly or buff it in some way to make up for it -Neural Parasite duration is only half when used on Massive unit. You can rebalance the energy cost or compensate in some way. - Ravagers need 2 Bile to break 1 FF 1 Bile cannot break more than 1 FF. Your Forcefields will naturally touch each other in order to create a wall, and Bile is AOE. 1 Bile should not be able to break 2 FFs at once by aiming for the edge. If taking this further, make it so that when used on buildings, it only hits 1 building at a time... OR the next change: -FF can be used to shield a building from a Bile. This way you have a way to protect your Batteries and Overcharge a little if from not being insta sniped by Bile. -Possibly, nerf Baneling building damage from 80 to 70 or something. I think it's kinda of whack that the natural counter to banelings is walling and static defense, but it has an alternate attack that is specifically strong against clumped buildings. This makes it harder to defend vs cracklings running around lategame. PvT: Even though I play Terran i have the least ideas here lol. -Maybe you can buff Overcharge to last 1-2 seconds longer, since it got straight up nerfed because Terrans were whining that they should be able to just force their all-in and attack in without having to pull back and wait 10 secs. (Even though it's pretty much always better and more worth it to wait it out vs the old stronger Overcharge if you can't snipe it...) So if the reasoning is that Terrans felt they should be able to out-DPS the healing rate of Overcharge, then doesn't it makes sense to compensate for it in another way, like letting it last 1-2 seconds longer? I know the balance council tried to compensate by doing things like giving Stasis Ward more sight range, slightly faster Observer and HT and Sentry movement, etc., but it still doesn't fill the gap in defense enough. General: -QoL AI change for Shield Battery: If there is a Overcharged Battery and another Battery, the Overcharged Battery should take priority in healing units so it doesn't get wasted. I've seen this happen pretty commonly in pro games where a vital unit would have lived, but didn't because the normal Battery started healing it thus not allowing the Overcharge Battery to heal it without manually stopping the normal Battery (and what pro has ever managed to do that?). -Sentry damage reverted from 6 to 8. This is a tiny change and will slightly help Gateway armies. The reason it was nerfed way back in WoL is because at the time, it was believed by some pros that mutas were too weak vs sentries and lost vs them (lol). Well with the current form of Muta, Protoss is having a lot of trouble vs them. A couple extra damage will not really solve anything but it also won't hurt anything it shouldn't, so why not? It also makes them slightly more useful even if they get EMP'd. -Buff Glaive in a way that makes Adepts scale a little more past early/mid game. Adept based comps like in PvT are cool and unique and we should encourage unique tactics and comps (using the phase shift to splash tanks or force them to unsiege and stuff). Previously, Adepts were nerfed because all-ins they were too strong vs Terran. Now that the Terran has the new Cyclone which is very easily accessible and also hard counters Adepts, there is no worry in buffing Glaives. Also, Glaive pushes are known to not be particularly threatening to Zerg anyways, and a failed push can lead to a Zerg still coming back from a 25 vs 45 worker deficit to launch an all-in and win. Pretty wild if you ask me. Maybe Glaive can also give +1 range or +10 HP or shield or something.
Some difficult things here. The FF / Bile interaction should stay as it is. Otherwise one pixel to the left/ right can decide games. Not instinctive.
FF buildings... I don't know. Don't see that changing anything.
Adepts/ Glaive: Can't really buff that straight up without making Adept all-ins vs Zerg OP. Can only maybe get a second upgrade in Templar Archives or DT Shrine for adepts?
All in all I doubt we'll see any changes at all here to be honest. Not sure how interested Microsoft is to keep SC2 alive. On the other hand there was recently a patch to Heroes of the Storm which was "dead" for 5+ years. Maybe Microsoft somehow sees a potential where Blizz saw none.
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Northern Ireland25089 Posts
On February 14 2024 18:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 00:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 13 2024 23:42 jpg06051992 wrote:
PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
Both of these are very good changes.
Also wish FF required 2 Corrosive Biles to knock them down. I agree with Viper not pulling MS. I haven't heard a good reason still for why it's so important for Zergs to be able to do that. I've heard some pros explain it but i still don't get it. At least make it so that if pulling a Heroic unit, it only pulls half distance. I think Protoss doesn't need a full redesign, just some slight buffs would already go a huge way and probably be enough: PvZ: -Vipers can't pull MS, or pulls half distance. If pushing this further, then make it so Abduct pulls Massive units half distance, but possibly buff the energy slightly or buff it in some way to make up for it -Neural Parasite duration is only half when used on Massive unit. You can rebalance the energy cost or compensate in some way. - Ravagers need 2 Bile to break 1 FF 1 Bile cannot break more than 1 FF. Your Forcefields will naturally touch each other in order to create a wall, and Bile is AOE. 1 Bile should not be able to break 2 FFs at once by aiming for the edge. If taking this further, make it so that when used on buildings, it only hits 1 building at a time... OR the next change: -FF can be used to shield a building from a Bile. This way you have a way to protect your Batteries and Overcharge a little if from not being insta sniped by Bile. -Possibly, nerf Baneling building damage from 80 to 70 or something. I think it's kinda of whack that the natural counter to banelings is walling and static defense, but it has an alternate attack that is specifically strong against clumped buildings. This makes it harder to defend vs cracklings running around lategame. PvT: Even though I play Terran i have the least ideas here lol. -Maybe you can buff Overcharge to last 1-2 seconds longer, since it got straight up nerfed because Terrans were whining that they should be able to just force their all-in and attack in without having to pull back and wait 10 secs. (Even though it's pretty much always better and more worth it to wait it out vs the old stronger Overcharge if you can't snipe it...) So if the reasoning is that Terrans felt they should be able to out-DPS the healing rate of Overcharge, then doesn't it makes sense to compensate for it in another way, like letting it last 1-2 seconds longer? I know the balance council tried to compensate by doing things like giving Stasis Ward more sight range, slightly faster Observer and HT and Sentry movement, etc., but it still doesn't fill the gap in defense enough. General: -QoL AI change for Shield Battery: If there is a Overcharged Battery and another Battery, the Overcharged Battery should take priority in healing units so it doesn't get wasted. I've seen this happen pretty commonly in pro games where a vital unit would have lived, but didn't because the normal Battery started healing it thus not allowing the Overcharge Battery to heal it without manually stopping the normal Battery (and what pro has ever managed to do that?). -Sentry damage reverted from 6 to 8. This is a tiny change and will slightly help Gateway armies. The reason it was nerfed way back in WoL is because at the time, it was believed by some pros that mutas were too weak vs sentries and lost vs them (lol). Well with the current form of Muta, Protoss is having a lot of trouble vs them. A couple extra damage will not really solve anything but it also won't hurt anything it shouldn't, so why not? It also makes them slightly more useful even if they get EMP'd. -Buff Glaive in a way that makes Adepts scale a little more past early/mid game. Adept based comps like in PvT are cool and unique and we should encourage unique tactics and comps (using the phase shift to splash tanks or force them to unsiege and stuff). Previously, Adepts were nerfed because all-ins they were too strong vs Terran. Now that the Terran has the new Cyclone which is very easily accessible and also hard counters Adepts, there is no worry in buffing Glaives. Also, Glaive pushes are known to not be particularly threatening to Zerg anyways, and a failed push can lead to a Zerg still coming back from a 25 vs 45 worker deficit to launch an all-in and win. Pretty wild if you ask me. Maybe Glaive can also give +1 range or +10 HP or shield or something. Some difficult things here. The FF / Bile interaction should stay as it is. Otherwise one pixel to the left/ right can decide games. Not instinctive. FF buildings... I don't know. Don't see that changing anything. Adepts/ Glaive: Can't really buff that straight up without making Adept all-ins vs Zerg OP. Can only maybe get a second upgrade in Templar Archives or DT Shrine for adepts? All in all I doubt we'll see any changes at all here to be honest. Not sure how interested Microsoft is to keep SC2 alive. On the other hand there was recently a patch to Heroes of the Storm which was "dead" for 5+ years. Maybe Microsoft somehow sees a potential where Blizz saw none.
Hopefully we still get some scraps at least. But I’d long viewed StarCraft’s support as coming from two places, the passion of people in Blizzard for the game, and maintaining goodwill and Blizzard standards, not purely out of goodness of the heart but in cultivating a positive image.
Well one those folks aren’t there anymore, and two Blizzard have basically destroyed their reputation these last few years, continued SC support (or not) isn’t going to rehabilitate that
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On December 21 2023 01:52 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2023 21:44 Charoisaur wrote:Honestly at this point I don't get what you guys want to actually happen. Let me ask everyone this question honestly. Who do you think SHOULD be winning these tournaments that plays Protoss currently. Honestly, who do you think is good enough to win these tournaments?
the Korean Protoss players can't beat Dark. They've proven that for years and years and years now. Dark just eats them and if Dark won't Serral will. Do you think this kind of one sided dominance is because of racial balance? Honestly. Do you think the only reason herO and Classic can't beat Dark and Serral is because their race is weaker?
Sure Maru has been showing some weaknesses lately due to his injury (and perhaps other issues) but does anyone think that an in shape Maru or Cure or Clem should lose to herO and Classic in a Bo7 and the only reason it isn't happening is because of racial balance? Classic: 5 time premier tournament champion herO: 8 time premier tournament champion Why are you so certain that these players are just worse than Cure, Maru, Dark etc? The only argument for that would be their performance in the last few years but those has been affected by balance (actually herO even showed last year that he has the skill to win tournaments LOL). Historical precedent definitely indicates they should be competing for championships Oh and what happened about 5 years ago that changed everything? Oh yea, SERRAL happened. Ever since Serral came to prominence and changed the way that pros played Zerg, Protoss stopped winning. You think balance shifted? What I saw was the skill cap of the pros kept going up and up thanks in large part to the rise of Serral and the reaction of the Koreans to counter what he was doing and when that happened Protoss got largely left behind. Protoss got largely left behind because Protoss is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed in its design to keep it from competing at THAT high of a skill ceiling. You can't fix that with a balance patch. You can't. You need much larger redesigns to the core of how the race works, and that isn't going to happen at this stage in the game's development. You guys might want to call this a balance problem. I don't. I call it the pros skill level just finally got high enough that the fundamental problems in Protoss design that have been there from the start are impossible to ignore any longer. But we're also at the point where it's both too late to do anything about them because Blizzard abandoned SC2 proper, and there's still a large contingent of Protoss players in the community that are in denial about what needs to happen.
What happened 5 years ago was patch 4.0.
Protoss:
- Colossus rework (nerf against non light, buffed against light)
- Carrier nerf
- Stalker rework (less dps but more damage)
- Oracle big nerf (most important unit for Protoss at the time)
- Adept nerf
Zerg:
Infestor buff
Viper buff
Lurker big buff
SH nerf
Terran:
Raven rework (mech sustain + matrix)
Liberator nerf
Ghost big buff
Mech big buff
Mine nerf
Serral was already really strong at that point but the fact Neeb who was the number 1 foreigner protoss at the time fell down and Serral blew up isn't only because they've gotten better/worse.
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On February 14 2024 22:02 imData wrote:
Serral was already really strong at that point but the fact Neeb who was the number 1 foreigner protoss at the time fell down and Serral blew up isn't only because they've gotten better/worse.
On a more macro level, this is also the moment when it was made clear that nobody would stand for protoss. If a patch made Serral lose his status as top player, the community would react strongly against that, because he is so deserving. When Neeb got patched out, absolutely no one cared.
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On February 14 2024 22:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 22:02 imData wrote:
Serral was already really strong at that point but the fact Neeb who was the number 1 foreigner protoss at the time fell down and Serral blew up isn't only because they've gotten better/worse. On a more macro level, this is also the moment when it was made clear that nobody would stand for protoss. If a patch made Serral lose his status as top player, the community would react strongly against that, because he is so deserving. When Neeb got patched out, absolutely no one cared. I've said this over and over again in a lot of threads, but the core Starcraft community carried over a lot of really ingrained antipathy towards Protoss and Protoss players and that totally fucked Protoss in early Wings of Liberty, when Blizzard was patching to address both balance and perception of balance. From basically Day One, Blizzard was kind of treating Protoss like an unwanted stepchild, usually being fast and aggressive with nerfs when Protoss was strong and slow and hesitant with nerfs when Protoss was struggling.
EDIT: There's probably a very interesting sociology/psychology study to be done on the differences in group behavior (and the reasons for those differences) of players who identify as players of a specific race in Starcraft. Because back when Blizzard nerfed Observer speed because they felt Terrans were too frustrated by Observers barely escaping scans, Protoss players grumbled, but I don't think many expected anything. If Blizzard had nerfed scan radius because Protoss players were too frustrated by Observers barely dying at the edges of scans, Terran players would have fucking rioted.
On February 13 2024 23:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Protoss' biggest main problem in late game scenarios is their over dependence on having a single deathball army. The Mothership exacerbates this problem to a hilarious degree, to the point where in the current state of the game it's simply a meme of a unit. We should be at least TRYING to open up options for Protoss to be able to operate smaller and self sufficient groups of units. Replacing the Mothership with Arbiters would do that, without giving Protoss anything new that they can abuse in the early game. Arbiters would not fix this. They would be used in combination with warp prisms to evacuate offensive warp-ins and generally avoid fights.
Fundamentally, Protoss cannot operate with smaller and self-sufficient groups of units until there are compositions of small groups of units that don't get absolutely bodied by comparable small groups of units from Terran or Zerg. The fact of the matter is that Zealots, Stalkers, and Archons simply do not have stat numbers in the right sizes and right proportions to allow them to fight Marines, Marauders, Zerglings, Roaches, Ravagers, Hydralisks, Banelings, etc., and mixing in Sentries and Adepts does not change anything. Protoss don't win "even" engagements without having a significant presence of splash damage support units, and the ones they do have all get significantly worse as the size of the engagement decreases.
Terran can roam the map with a Medivac and some 8 supply mix of Marines and Marauders, or 2 Medivacs and 16 supply of bio, and that's a threat that can go in, kill things, and get out without many losses.
Zerg can run around the map with Zerglings, or Roaches, etc., etc.
Protoss, if they're walking around the map with 2 High Templar or a Disruptor and 16 supply of Zealots and Stalkers isn't doing anything with that. The tech units there are just juicy targets insufficiently protected by the Zealots and Stalkers, while also not being effective. Two storms or one Purification Nova against ~20 supply or Terran or Zerg is a lot easier for the opponent to dodge without taking significant damage or losses, and then it's just a handful of Zealots and Stalkers being donated to the superior combat abilities of the low tech Terran or Zerg units.
The only way Protoss gets to roam the map with small, independent squads of units is if they have units that can more or less be a-moved into equally a-moved bio or low tech zerg and expect to trade evenly. And that will never happen, because at this point if you give Protoss players anything vaguely strong, they're going to forsake all of their inefficient, finicky, fragile options for heavy commitment into the thing that is actually good, usually in the form of an all in. And then the community will be outraged because Protoss will have a 48% winrate but mostly off of an all-in, and the thing gets nerfed.
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Arbiters would not fix this. They would be used in combination with warp prisms to evacuate offensive warp-ins and generally avoid fights.
You're right. Arbiters alone would not fix this. If I had my way, Arbiters being reintroduced would go along with fundamental changes to how Warp Gate operates as well as a rebalancing of Protoss Gateway units to compensate for Warp Gate being reworked.
I do think however that since the Warp Gate changes that I want are such a divisive topic, that the Arbiter change would not be. I don't see why anyone at this stage of the game should be against replacing the Mothership with Arbiters. Does it fix everything that's wrong with Protoss? No. Is it a noticeable step in the right direction? I think so.
You can't balance the Mothership. At this point that should be obvious to everybody, it's a relic of a long since abandoned philosphy that every race needed a hero unit that was present back in early SC2 development. When the Thor's original hero concept was scrapped the Mothership's needed to follow but Blizzard stuck with it because "rule of cool." It's a failed concept. Get rid of it and give Protoss an actual unit that isn't so easily countered by a single spell.
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On February 16 2024 09:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +Arbiters would not fix this. They would be used in combination with warp prisms to evacuate offensive warp-ins and generally avoid fights. You're right. Arbiters alone would not fix this. If I had my way, Arbiters being reintroduced would go along with fundamental changes to how Warp Gate operates as well as a rebalancing of Protoss Gateway units to compensate for Warp Gate being reworked. I do think however that since the Warp Gate changes that I want are such a divisive topic, that the Arbiter change would not be. I don't see why anyone at this stage of the game should be against replacing the Mothership with Arbiters. Does it fix everything that's wrong with Protoss? No. Is it a noticeable step in the right direction? I think so. You can't balance the Mothership. At this point that should be obvious to everybody, it's a relic of a long since abandoned philosphy that every race needed a hero unit that was present back in early SC2 development. When the Thor's original hero concept was scrapped the Mothership's needed to follow but Blizzard stuck with it because "rule of cool." It's a failed concept. Get rid of it and give Protoss an actual unit that isn't so easily countered by a single spell. Oh, I absolutely did not mean to give the impression that I was against trading the Mothership for the Arbiter. The Mothership being a one-of hero unit only made sense to any extent back in the pre-beta when it was demoed with the Planet Cracker ability to obliterate ground units and the Black Hole just instantly killed all air units in the area of effect.
Arbiters being reintroduced with Recall, a cloaking field, and some CC ability would do a lot for helping Protoss in the late game, but a lot of the problems the race currently faces preclude surviving to late game without already being terminally behind.
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On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years?
I really don't think it's that true. Yes, at the moment we only have a few players (okay, maybe one player) who are contending at the very top level, but the issue imo is less that a Protoss player isn't beating Serral in a Bo7 than that high-level tournaments see so little Protoss representation period.
There are plenty of up-and-coming Protoss players out there (arguably Protoss has the best player pool at the moment when it comes to freshness and potential), and the argument that, e.g. Showtime or Astrea or Skillous or Stats or Harstem or Classic or Creator are just in absolute terms worse than the kinds of Terran players who make Ro8s or Ro4s or even finals, the Bunnies and Heromarines and SHINs and Gumihos and Oliveiras of this world, is I think actually quite weak. High-level Starcraft is just a game by its nature with a lot of variation, and the skill level below the very top I think tends to be much closer than it's ever been to the point.
The goal, then, isn't necessarily to get Astrea to always beat Serral in a Bo3. The goal is to increase representation overall and let that play itself out in terms of who wins tournaments. If we buff Protoss to the point where consistent "second-tier" Protoss are actually consistently making deeper runs, then not only will that increase the chances of someone like herO winning a tournament here and there, but it will naturally have a series of carry-over effects that are much greater down the line. If there are consistently 4-5 Protoss in a Ro16, then that makes it more likely for there to be consistently 2 or 3 Protosses in the Ro8, which in turn makes it more likely that we'll see a Protoss in the finals which in turn makes it more likely we'll see a Protoss win a larger tournament. The last one may take a while, but fundamentally for me the balance problem is a viewer/ESPORTs problem, which is that it's not good for the game to not see any Protoss matchups deeper in tournaments.
Players have great unexpected runs all the time, and lots of second tier players have made the jump to tier one after getting some good luck or pulling things together at a tournament. The problem with Protoss atm imo is how consistently that doesn't happen with Protoss while it happens regularly with the other races. When is the last time we had a HeroMarine or SHIN or Gumihoesque tear by a Protoss player at a big tournament? When is the last time we had a Cure-like Protoss take a clear step up to the big leagues?
This, I think, is where balance becomes the obvious problem and/or answer. If Protoss is currently significantly more fragile, if smaller mistakes are punished much harder, then that goes a long way to explaining why we don't see these kinds of step-ups and miracle runs with Protoss players. Or even more clearly, such tears did happen with Protoss up until a few years ago, and then stopped very suddenly after a few balance changes. Even now, Protoss players do step up at tournaments and go on limited tears (see e.g. Showtime at many tournaments), but even when they do, they can't maintain the consistency needed to actually transfer that into a great run and/or placement. Hell, while Oliveira's miracle run is obviously the most radical kind of outlier, it's very hard to impossible to imagine a Protoss player going on a similar run, thanks to the current balance of the race.
So I really don't think the situation is at all hopeless or necessarily calls for much more than a series of calculated balance changes to reduce variability and fragility. But that should be our drumbeat and our goal, not the idea of buffing Toss until Harstem always beats Serral in Bo7s.
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On February 15 2024 08:02 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 22:26 Nebuchad wrote:On February 14 2024 22:02 imData wrote:
Serral was already really strong at that point but the fact Neeb who was the number 1 foreigner protoss at the time fell down and Serral blew up isn't only because they've gotten better/worse. On a more macro level, this is also the moment when it was made clear that nobody would stand for protoss. If a patch made Serral lose his status as top player, the community would react strongly against that, because he is so deserving. When Neeb got patched out, absolutely no one cared. I've said this over and over again in a lot of threads, but the core Starcraft community carried over a lot of really ingrained antipathy towards Protoss and Protoss players and that totally fucked Protoss in early Wings of Liberty, when Blizzard was patching to address both balance and perception of balance. From basically Day One, Blizzard was kind of treating Protoss like an unwanted stepchild, usually being fast and aggressive with nerfs when Protoss was strong and slow and hesitant with nerfs when Protoss was struggling. EDIT: There's probably a very interesting sociology/psychology study to be done on the differences in group behavior (and the reasons for those differences) of players who identify as players of a specific race in Starcraft. Because back when Blizzard nerfed Observer speed because they felt Terrans were too frustrated by Observers barely escaping scans, Protoss players grumbled, but I don't think many expected anything. If Blizzard had nerfed scan radius because Protoss players were too frustrated by Observers barely dying at the edges of scans, Terran players would have fucking rioted. Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 23:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Protoss' biggest main problem in late game scenarios is their over dependence on having a single deathball army. The Mothership exacerbates this problem to a hilarious degree, to the point where in the current state of the game it's simply a meme of a unit. We should be at least TRYING to open up options for Protoss to be able to operate smaller and self sufficient groups of units. Replacing the Mothership with Arbiters would do that, without giving Protoss anything new that they can abuse in the early game. Arbiters would not fix this. They would be used in combination with warp prisms to evacuate offensive warp-ins and generally avoid fights. Fundamentally, Protoss cannot operate with smaller and self-sufficient groups of units until there are compositions of small groups of units that don't get absolutely bodied by comparable small groups of units from Terran or Zerg. The fact of the matter is that Zealots, Stalkers, and Archons simply do not have stat numbers in the right sizes and right proportions to allow them to fight Marines, Marauders, Zerglings, Roaches, Ravagers, Hydralisks, Banelings, etc., and mixing in Sentries and Adepts does not change anything. Protoss don't win "even" engagements without having a significant presence of splash damage support units, and the ones they do have all get significantly worse as the size of the engagement decreases. Terran can roam the map with a Medivac and some 8 supply mix of Marines and Marauders, or 2 Medivacs and 16 supply of bio, and that's a threat that can go in, kill things, and get out without many losses. Zerg can run around the map with Zerglings, or Roaches, etc., etc. Protoss, if they're walking around the map with 2 High Templar or a Disruptor and 16 supply of Zealots and Stalkers isn't doing anything with that. The tech units there are just juicy targets insufficiently protected by the Zealots and Stalkers, while also not being effective. Two storms or one Purification Nova against ~20 supply or Terran or Zerg is a lot easier for the opponent to dodge without taking significant damage or losses, and then it's just a handful of Zealots and Stalkers being donated to the superior combat abilities of the low tech Terran or Zerg units. The only way Protoss gets to roam the map with small, independent squads of units is if they have units that can more or less be a-moved into equally a-moved bio or low tech zerg and expect to trade evenly. And that will never happen, because at this point if you give Protoss players anything vaguely strong, they're going to forsake all of their inefficient, finicky, fragile options for heavy commitment into the thing that is actually good, usually in the form of an all in. And then the community will be outraged because Protoss will have a 48% winrate but mostly off of an all-in, and the thing gets nerfed.
Right, it seems like there's general agreement that a big part of the issue is the weakness of Gateway units leading to a reliance at key stages of the game on a few finicky counter-able tech units leading to Protoss just falling apart if those units die at critical moments.
I'm honestly not convinced that at this stage of the game it would really break anything to just straight up give small buffs to Stalkers or Zealots. LotV economy makes Protoss all-ins just massively weaker in general, as do the the Warp Gate changes that were already made. I don't really see Protoss all-ins being hugely stronger than comparable Terran and Zerg all-ins that no one seems to have a problem with. Inasmuch as Protoss players are still "cheesier" on average, I don't think it's because the all-ins are so much stronger relative to other races; I think it's because defensive play is so much weaker.
If we're worried about all-ins, though, there are ways to deal with that built into the game, such as buffing via upgrades rather than base stats. A lot of Gateway units scale significantly worse than comparable Toss and Terran units in the later game, and I'm not quite sure why. Indeed, given just how well base Terran and Zerg units scale into the late game, I don't really see what the problem would be with making Stalkers or Zealots even significantly stronger in those phases of the game.
Even if that's considered too dangerous, there are ways to maintain Toss' current design while giving buffs that mainly affect gateway units. One that's been frequently discussed over the years is a Sentry buff, either via a buff to Guardian Shield or some kind of later-game ability that increases the sustain of Gateway units in particular. Sentries are slow and clumsy and having snipeable sentries still maintains the basic Protoss vulnerability, but a Sentry is much cheaper and easier to replace than a Robo unit and pairs more naturally with Gateway units.
A more radical and probably broken idea that occurs to me is to simply make it easier to have more Warp Prisms active on the map at once. The Warp Prism plays an interesting role in dramatically strengthening the threat potential of even small groups of units via pickup micro and instant reinforce, and is biased toward Gateway units by its very nature. Even something as radical as moving the Warp Gate to the Stargate from the Robo (while probably increasing its cost) doesn't seem too crazy to me. While Warp Prisms are cost for cost more valuable than Medivacs, it's striking how little we see Protoss players having more than one Warp Prism for key chunks of the game, as opposed to the swarms of Medivacs dropping in different locations and making the main army just straight-up stronger. The reason of course isn't the cost or stats of the Warp Prism, but it being locked in the Robo along with all other important tech units. While there's a potential huge problem with strengthening Protoss all-ins there, it seems like in the mid to late game it would certainly help increase Protoss redundancy and micro-ability quite a bit.
That last one is probably a bad idea, but the point is once again just that there are options here, even with the current state of Protoss design.
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Northern Ireland25089 Posts
On February 16 2024 22:38 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years? I really don't think it's that true. Yes, at the moment we only have a few players (okay, maybe one player) who are contending at the very top level, but the issue imo is less that a Protoss player isn't beating Serral in a Bo7 than that high-level tournaments see so little Protoss representation period. There are plenty of up-and-coming Protoss players out there (arguably Protoss has the best player pool at the moment when it comes to freshness and potential), and the argument that, e.g. Showtime or Astrea or Skillous or Stats or Harstem or Classic or Creator are just in absolute terms worse than the kinds of Terran players who make Ro8s or Ro4s or even finals, the Bunnies and Heromarines and SHINs and Gumihos and Oliveiras of this world, is I think actually quite weak. High-level Starcraft is just a game by its nature with a lot of variation, and the skill level below the very top I think tends to be much closer than it's ever been to the point. The goal, then, isn't necessarily to get Astrea to always beat Serral in a Bo3. The goal is to increase representation overall and let that play itself out in terms of who wins tournaments. If we buff Protoss to the point where consistent "second-tier" Protoss are actually consistently making deeper runs, then not only will that increase the chances of someone like herO winning a tournament here and there, but it will naturally have a series of carry-over effects that are much greater down the line. If there are consistently 4-5 Protoss in a Ro16, then that makes it more likely for there to be consistently 2 or 3 Protosses in the Ro8, which in turn makes it more likely that we'll see a Protoss in the finals which in turn makes it more likely we'll see a Protoss win a larger tournament. The last one may take a while, but fundamentally for me the balance problem is a viewer/ESPORTs problem, which is that it's not good for the game to not see any Protoss matchups deeper in tournaments. Players have great unexpected runs all the time, and lots of second tier players have made the jump to tier one after getting some good luck or pulling things together at a tournament. The problem with Protoss atm imo is how consistently that doesn't happen with Protoss while it happens regularly with the other races. When is the last time we had a HeroMarine or SHIN or Gumihoesque tear by a Protoss player at a big tournament? When is the last time we had a Cure-like Protoss take a clear step up to the big leagues? This, I think, is where balance becomes the obvious problem and/or answer. If Protoss is currently significantly more fragile, if smaller mistakes are punished much harder, then that goes a long way to explaining why we don't see these kinds of step-ups and miracle runs with Protoss players. Or even more clearly, such tears did happen with Protoss up until a few years ago, and then stopped very suddenly after a few balance changes. Even now, Protoss players do step up at tournaments and go on limited tears (see e.g. Showtime at many tournaments), but even when they do, they can't maintain the consistency needed to actually transfer that into a great run and/or placement. Hell, while Oliveira's miracle run is obviously the most radical kind of outlier, it's very hard to impossible to imagine a Protoss player going on a similar run, thanks to the current balance of the race. So I really don't think the situation is at all hopeless or necessarily calls for much more than a series of calculated balance changes to reduce variability and fragility. But that should be our drumbeat and our goal, not the idea of buffing Toss until Harstem always beats Serral in Bo7s.
Yeah well said man, can’t disagree with almost any of that really.
Especially when we consider that Toss has been very strong in GM representation for forever.
Of course there’s a gap to pro play, but Protoss players can’t simultaneously be worse to account for a lack of deep tournament runs, but not better and that accounts for their GM overrepresentation.
It’s something else, and I’d wager, and have long wagered that it’s relatively easier to get a high ranking a bit below the top, when you’re playing a bunch of Bo1 games. When players are that bit better, and you’re in series play, that’s when we see it tailing off.
Folks will point out that the likes of Trap, Parting etc aren’t around, and yeah they’re not. But the picture wasn’t all that much better then, a bit but not hugely. And people made the ‘Protoss players aren’t as good’ argument then, but after the fact point to departures as evidence that the Toss pool is diminished. I mean it is, but it’s kicking the ball down the road. Guys like Trap and Parting just aren’t as good as their equivalents, then it’s ’oh the players just aren’t as good, if only you had Trap and Parting still playing’. And so one and so forth.
My number one word for Protoss currently is fragile. You’re really playing on a knife edge, your offensive gambits aren’t really that potent anymore with years of patches and collective knowledge improvement. And playing defensively it’s hard to not just get outgrown, or to die to a big push, or take crippling damage from a drop or a runby.
It’s possible, but it’s considerably easier to live on the knife edge for the odd game, versus staying there for series after series in succession.
A relatively recent problem, but Protoss is kind of bad in both directions now.
Versus Zerg you were outmatched in defensive/reactionary growth games, and long have been. But you had a lot of potent builds and strategems to try to slow, or outright kill the Zerg. Through patching, and mostly player improvement, so much of those plays are either figured out or patched out and aren’t that effective.
Versus Terran it would swing a bit, sometimes you’d have aggressive metas, sometimes defensive. But usually Toss would be better than Terran in one of those areas. Now I’d argue it’s neither, and this is what sees Toss living on the edge in this matchup particularly. Terran is relatively free to power as Protoss lack tools to really slow that down, which also means Terran tends to outgrow Toss and frequently, frequently just kill them in that window before a 3rd or 4th base kicks in.
When Trap or Parting were in form a few years ago, you’d see very potent blink pressure builds, that sometimes would just shift to outright kill moves, mixed in with games where Toss would outgrow Terran by a base or two, and flooding outlying bases with Zealots, or DTs
I mean it’s not like Toss was winning every game, but they had better options. They could outgrow a Terran to the degree that they’d be reliably in the phase of the game where a positional mistake would lead to a disadvantage and openings for the opponent, rather than just outright death.
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On February 16 2024 22:38 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years? I really don't think it's that true. Yes, at the moment we only have a few players (okay, maybe one player) who are contending at the very top level, but the issue imo is less that a Protoss player isn't beating Serral in a Bo7 than that high-level tournaments see so little Protoss representation period. There are plenty of up-and-coming Protoss players out there (arguably Protoss has the best player pool at the moment when it comes to freshness and potential), and the argument that, e.g. Showtime or Astrea or Skillous or Stats or Harstem or Classic or Creator are just in absolute terms worse than the kinds of Terran players who make Ro8s or Ro4s or even finals, the Bunnies and Heromarines and SHINs and Gumihos and Oliveiras of this world, is I think actually quite weak. High-level Starcraft is just a game by its nature with a lot of variation, and the skill level below the very top I think tends to be much closer than it's ever been to the point. The goal, then, isn't necessarily to get Astrea to always beat Serral in a Bo3. The goal is to increase representation overall and let that play itself out in terms of who wins tournaments. If we buff Protoss to the point where consistent "second-tier" Protoss are actually consistently making deeper runs, then not only will that increase the chances of someone like herO winning a tournament here and there, but it will naturally have a series of carry-over effects that are much greater down the line. If there are consistently 4-5 Protoss in a Ro16, then that makes it more likely for there to be consistently 2 or 3 Protosses in the Ro8, which in turn makes it more likely that we'll see a Protoss in the finals which in turn makes it more likely we'll see a Protoss win a larger tournament. The last one may take a while, but fundamentally for me the balance problem is a viewer/ESPORTs problem, which is that it's not good for the game to not see any Protoss matchups deeper in tournaments. Players have great unexpected runs all the time, and lots of second tier players have made the jump to tier one after getting some good luck or pulling things together at a tournament. The problem with Protoss atm imo is how consistently that doesn't happen with Protoss while it happens regularly with the other races. When is the last time we had a HeroMarine or SHIN or Gumihoesque tear by a Protoss player at a big tournament? When is the last time we had a Cure-like Protoss take a clear step up to the big leagues? This, I think, is where balance becomes the obvious problem and/or answer. If Protoss is currently significantly more fragile, if smaller mistakes are punished much harder, then that goes a long way to explaining why we don't see these kinds of step-ups and miracle runs with Protoss players. Or even more clearly, such tears did happen with Protoss up until a few years ago, and then stopped very suddenly after a few balance changes. Even now, Protoss players do step up at tournaments and go on limited tears (see e.g. Showtime at many tournaments), but even when they do, they can't maintain the consistency needed to actually transfer that into a great run and/or placement. Hell, while Oliveira's miracle run is obviously the most radical kind of outlier, it's very hard to impossible to imagine a Protoss player going on a similar run, thanks to the current balance of the race. So I really don't think the situation is at all hopeless or necessarily calls for much more than a series of calculated balance changes to reduce variability and fragility. But that should be our drumbeat and our goal, not the idea of buffing Toss until Harstem always beats Serral in Bo7s.
I agree with the logic of your post. Which is why I generally don't think that Protoss really needs much in the way of "balancing." Revert the nerfs that Protoss has gotten in the last few patch cycles sure, bring them back to where they were when Trap was making his runs and I think that combined with the nerfs that Zerg and Terran have gotten since then should be enough for a Protoss like herO to stand a chance of making the top 4 or even a finals appearance.
I just don't think that's going to stop the Protoss crying though. I think people are still going to complain about Protoss losing until we see a multiple time GSL champ or world champ Protoss take the scene and I just don't see that happening without A: a massive breakout from a new player ala Clem or Reynor. B: massive buffs to Protoss to allow lower tier Protoss to compete with the best Terrans and Zergs or C: a fundamental redesign to Protoss to make it more rewarding to high skill in a macro game.
A: I don't think is likely, but it's possible. Maxpax could start playing offlines finally and he turns out to be worth the hype he gets on aligulac in a real tournament setting. B: is what I don't want to happen, but what I think is the most likely to get the Protoss crying to stop. C: is the outcome I want, and is the outcome I have wanted since WoL. C is the outcome I think is best for the game in the long term, because even if A happens, I don't think we'll get a consistent tournament winner, I think we'll get a flash in the pan moment for a tournament like what we used to get from Zest before the meta figures out whatever new innovation he comes up with and we go back to Protoss not winning. That's been the pattern of Protoss success that we have seen since WoL. That's the result of how Protoss is designed, and that's the main reason I want to see them redesigned.
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Northern Ireland25089 Posts
Yeah 100% in agreement there Vindi
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Ive offered the "Automated Vespene Gaysers" as the solution, so basically what it means is, an upgrade, then you pay for each gayser, then it would cost 1 food permanently (till the gayser is empty), and work like in the campaign where the geysers get extracted from Orbit, you can think of the 1 food, the remote probe operator extracting the gayser.
You would say this is OP, and why ?... Its basically to prevent or somehow reduce the effect of losing mass probes to zergling or drops. Having to do 4 less works per base. And with each vespene upgrade this way costing 150 minerals, its basically the same 3 probes cost, just that they'd be "protected, and require only 2 food", this free some extra suppy for zealot runbys etc, For deathball airtoss, you can also get 200 supply airtoss already with everything already mined
Also frees a tiny bit more for endgame. But not much, as to be fair when i get Deathball i already mined everything and have already no probes or gas left to mine.
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Allowing the gigantic ultimate air unit to be pulled away by a tiny tentacle is just too comical and ridiculous I never understand how they refuse to fix it.
Yeah if anything the Mothership already has "hero unit" label as it is the only unit in the game that can not be Neural Parasited.
It would be extremely easy to make it invulnerable to VIpers. It is just ridiculous. Also the latest changes suck, i would have double down on the mothership being strong, 8 food, more cost, and maybe its Wings Of Liberty Skills back, like the Black Hole ....
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If the results of Protoss players at Katowice:
106 games played by Protoss with only 38 wins
only 2 Protoss in the round of 12
no Protoss past the round of 12
does not influence the balance team to address Protoss, nothing will.
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On February 18 2024 18:25 AxiomB wrote:
If the results of Protoss players at Katowice:
106 games played by Protoss with only 38 wins
only 2 Protoss in the round of 12
no Protoss past the round of 12
does not influence the balance team to address Protoss, nothing will.
This is a bunch of bullshit without context though.
There were 8 Protoss at IEM Katowice.
Astrea, Skillous, Showtime, Trigger, herO, Stats, Firefly and Cyan.
Let's look at how each of them did individually.
Trigger went 3-9 in Group A. He lost to HeroMarine, Solar, Gumiho, Scarlett and beat Spirit. Did Trigger lose to any player in this group that he should have beaten? No.
Stats went 2-10 in Group of Death #1(B) where he took maps off of Cure and Oliveira. Stats had an EXTREMELY difficult group but Stats is also just coming back from the Korean army, so it's not a surprise to anyone that actually watched that he didn't do any better.
Astrea, Firefly and Skillous were all in the same group (C). So realistically all 3 of them could have advanced from this group except there was a problem. SERRAL was in this group. So was Byun who managed to beat all of them. Does anyone realistically think that Serral or Byun should have lost their advancing spot to one of these 3 Protoss? Collectively these 3 Protoss all scored 5 wins a piece (15-21 overall) but most of these wins were in PvP against each other so their win/loss record doesn't matter since they all lost to Serral and Byun. All 3 of these Protoss players defeated the last place finisher of this group Kelazhur who dropped out 1-10 from this group.
Group of Death #2 (D) had herO, Cyan and Showtime in it, but it also had Dark and Maru in it. Maru actually dropped a series here to Cyan in probably the biggest upset in the tournament, but went nearly undefeated (dropping 1 map to herO) against everyone else so it didn't matter. Just like group C. The win/loss of the Protoss in this group, doesn't really matter since most of the matches they played were against each other. But even still Protoss did manage to knock out Reynor in this group with Showtime playing better than I've seen of him in years. But it wasn't enough when he was probably the 5th weakest player in this group when he would have been the third strongest player in Group C or the 4th strongest player in Group A.
Had Katowice spread the Protoss out more evenly so that instead of there being 6 Protoss in Groups C and D only 2 in A or B there would have been more opportunities for Protoss to upset weaker Zergs and Terrans to claim more spots in the final rounds. But unfortunately due to the retarded groupings that we ended up with, 6/8 Protoss players got put in the same groups as 3/4 of our final 4 players with only Cure being the exception. Now you could make the argument that having 6/8 Protoss in the same 2 groups increased the likelihood that we'd have SOME Protoss in the Ro12 instead of none, and maybe there's some truth to that, but it also all but guaranteed that we'd get Protoss players eliminating each other in PvP games instead of actually seeing matches that would showcase balance issues.
As lopsided as the overall stats are, it doesn't take much effort at all to see WHY it happened and why it doesn't have anything to do with balance. Protoss was NEVER going to do well at Katowice. The result we got was actually pretty good all things considered.
I'm not saying that there isn't a balance problem. There obviously is, but trying to use Katowice as some kind of evidence to support that Protoss is struggling is invalid. Having watched the entire tournament, I can easily easily say that the reason Protoss got its ass kicked at this tournament wasn't because of balance. It was because they had much weaker players in unfairly stacked groups. A balance patch wouldn't have done anything here to change the result.
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EPT
