Semi-standard Protoss Crying Post - Page 12

On February 18 2024 04:21 CerebrateHector wrote:


Yeah if anything the Mothership already has "hero unit" label as it is the only unit in the game that can not be Neural Parasited.

It would be extremely easy to make it invulnerable to VIpers. It is just ridiculous. Also the latest changes suck, i would have double down on the mothership being strong, 8 food, more cost, and maybe its Wings Of Liberty Skills back, like the Black Hole ....

On February 19 2024 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote:


This is a bunch of bullshit without context though.

There were 8 Protoss at IEM Katowice.

Astrea, Skillous, Showtime, Trigger, herO, Stats, Firefly and Cyan.

Let's look at how each of them did individually.

Trigger went 3-9 in Group A. He lost to HeroMarine, Solar, Gumiho, Scarlett and beat Spirit. Did Trigger lose to any player in this group that he should have beaten? No.

Stats went 2-10 in Group of Death #1(B) where he took maps off of Cure and Oliveira. Stats had an EXTREMELY difficult group but Stats is also just coming back from the Korean army, so it's not a surprise to anyone that actually watched that he didn't do any better.

Astrea, Firefly and Skillous were all in the same group (C). So realistically all 3 of them could have advanced from this group except there was a problem. SERRAL was in this group. So was Byun who managed to beat all of them. Does anyone realistically think that Serral or Byun should have lost their advancing spot to one of these 3 Protoss? Collectively these 3 Protoss all scored 5 wins a piece (15-21 overall) but most of these wins were in PvP against each other so their win/loss record doesn't matter since they all lost to Serral and Byun. All 3 of these Protoss players defeated the last place finisher of this group Kelazhur who dropped out 1-10 from this group.

Group of Death #2 (D) had herO, Cyan and Showtime in it, but it also had Dark and Maru in it. Maru actually dropped a series here to Cyan in probably the biggest upset in the tournament, but went nearly undefeated (dropping 1 map to herO) against everyone else so it didn't matter. Just like group C. The win/loss of the Protoss in this group, doesn't really matter since most of the matches they played were against each other. But even still Protoss did manage to knock out Reynor in this group with Showtime playing better than I've seen of him in years. But it wasn't enough when he was probably the 5th weakest player in this group when he would have been the third strongest player in Group C or the 4th strongest player in Group A.

Had Katowice spread the Protoss out more evenly so that instead of there being 6 Protoss in Groups C and D only 2 in A or B there would have been more opportunities for Protoss to upset weaker Zergs and Terrans to claim more spots in the final rounds. But unfortunately due to the retarded groupings that we ended up with, 6/8 Protoss players got put in the same groups as 3/4 of our final 4 players with only Cure being the exception. Now you could make the argument that having 6/8 Protoss in the same 2 groups increased the likelihood that we'd have SOME Protoss in the Ro12 instead of none, and maybe there's some truth to that, but it also all but guaranteed that we'd get Protoss players eliminating each other in PvP games instead of actually seeing matches that would showcase balance issues.

As lopsided as the overall stats are, it doesn't take much effort at all to see WHY it happened and why it doesn't have anything to do with balance. Protoss was NEVER going to do well at Katowice. The result we got was actually pretty good all things considered.

I'm not saying that there isn't a balance problem. There obviously is, but trying to use Katowice as some kind of evidence to support that Protoss is struggling is invalid. Having watched the entire tournament, I can easily easily say that the reason Protoss got its ass kicked at this tournament wasn't because of balance. It was because they had much weaker players in unfairly stacked groups. A balance patch wouldn't have done anything here to change the result.

On February 19 2024 20:39 AxiomB wrote:


This is a fair post to recognise the few P players in the round of 12. Well put. I propose the Katowice results are not black and white evidence but the cherry on top of the cumulative evidence that P needs a tiny tiny buff at the elite level.

Every time you say things like "Does anyone think that X should have lost to Y", it is a reflexion of what happened in the past. You think that Serral and Byun should easily beat the protosses that they play because you have watched Serral and Byun play before and they were beating the protosses that they played. It is an argument that stems from balance, it's not separated from it.

On February 19 2024 23:02 CerebrateHector wrote:


I disagree for some reasons..

If you see Serral play, how often you feel he is the best Zerg, and how often do you feel he does mistakes ?, If you see him play you see a player the closest to perfection.

Now, how often do you see that on Protosses ?, ive only seen Classic sometimes, but other times he plays like crap...

On February 20 2024 04:10 Vindicare605 wrote:


Oh come off of it.

Do you really think that Skillous would have stood any better of a chance against Dark if Disruptors and Shield Overcharge was unnerfed? Do you think it would have made a lick of difference if Serral couldn't abduct Motherships with Vipers like this thread keeps talking about? Do you really think these Protoss would have beaten him otherwise?

This is what I meant when I said a few pages back, about what it's going to take for the Protoss crying to stop. You guys want to completely ignore the OBVIOUS lack of high quality Protoss players compared to what Terran and Zerg have, and want to just buff Protoss so much that guys with no career accomplishments can hang with the GOATS of Starcraft 2 just for the sake of it.

If that's what you want just come out and say that's what you want. You want to rig the game so that Protoss wins and you don't care if you break the game's balance to do it. Stop it with this disingenous argument that Protoss is losing these tournaments because their players with no career accomplishments never had any because the race is always imbalanced.

On February 20 2024 05:44 Vindicare605 wrote:


You're hopeless man. If this is actually what you consider logic, then there's no point in trying to discuss anything with yo on this topic.

The games are DIFFERENT. TOO DIFFERENT for you to EVER try and make comparisons between skill levels of the players involved.

It's like saying that if Lebron James switched to Soccer he'd be the best player in the game there, or vice versa because both games involve putting a ball in a net.

We had the Brood War pros swap over to SC2, and guess what? The goats of SC2 are all players that never played Brood War professionally. Want to know why that is? Because Brood War and SC2 are DIFFERENT games. Stormgate and SC2 are DIFFERENT games.

On February 20 2024 05:44 Vindicare605 wrote:


You're hopeless man. If this is actually what you consider logic, then there's no point in trying to discuss anything with you on this topic.

The games are DIFFERENT. TOO DIFFERENT for you to EVER try and make comparisons between skill levels of the players involved.

It's like saying that if Lebron James switched to Soccer he'd be the best player in the game there, or vice versa because both games involve putting a ball in a net.

We had the Brood War pros swap over to SC2, and guess what? The goats of SC2 are all players that never played Brood War professionally. Want to know why that is? Because Brood War and SC2 are DIFFERENT games. Stormgate and SC2 are DIFFERENT games.

On February 20 2024 07:25 ejozl wrote:
It could be that we're not seeing the full power of PartinG, sOs, Stats etc. because it's better worth it to go and win a stormgate tournament instead of struggling to get into code S, because the race is simply worse.

It's very important that there at least is a hope of a chance for Protoss. Pretty much since 2019 I've been jaded about Protoss doing anything in GSL. And I think the herO win was an absolute miracle run, in a similar vein to Oliveiras run in Katowce, and funnily enough they both required a Maru choking in the finals.

On February 20 2024 06:54 Vindicare605 wrote:


Like I've been saying. I definitely agree that Protoss should have most if not all of its nerfs from the last couple patch cycles rolled back. I also think that in the 2024-2025 season, TLMC needs to make a firm commitment to changing the map pool so that it favors Protoss and starts disadvantaging Zerg. We've had 5 consecutive years of Zergs winning the most of any of the 3 races and it doesn't make any sense that outrageously rigged maps like Radhuset Station keep finding their way into the Premier map tournament pools when anybody with even the slightest bit of game experience can tell you it's a blatantly Zerg favored map.

I want these changes to happen because I think Protoss does need a little bit of help.

But I want people, especially Protoss fans to be realistic about what these buffs are going to do the tournament winrate: very little. It MIGHT give herO and Classic the boost they need to make a finals appearance, or even win a tournament if Maru and Serral get upset in previous rounds. It would help Stats a LOT if he could play his defensive macro style on maps where it wasn't so fucking hard for Protoss to hold a third base. But it won't give Protoss a positive winrate if the same 8 players from IEM Katowice are the ones that are going to keep qualifying for tournaments in the future, because players like Skillous, Astrea and Firefly, even though they are way better at the game than I can ever hope to be, are not players that are going to be a serious threat to Code S champions and multiple time world champion players like Dark, Serral, Maru, Reynor or Solar. We can give them a slight handicap in maps or even patch balance, but it won't shake things up that much.

On February 20 2024 07:28 Vindicare605 wrote:


Wombat you know already how I'm going to respond to this.

THEN LETS FIX THE ACTUAL FUCKING PROBLEMS WITH PROTOSS THEN!

Stop fucking around with unit tweaks and numbers balancing when the core problem with the race is in its fundamental design. I've been saying that for 11 years!

Either accept that Protoss is broken at a fundamental design level (which requires overhauling the entire race to fix) or accept that Protoss in its current state is not going to consistently win unless they get blatantly favored balance changes that artificially inflate their winrate to a point where lower tier Protoss players can beat SC2 GOATS.

I said this several pages ago that this is where we are, and the same conclusion is the same as its ever been. This isn't a problem you're going to fix with a balance patch.You're either going to replace the problem with another one, or you're going to make small changes that don't change much in the grand scheme of things.