EPTHow do we measure GOATs without Korean SC2?
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luxon
United States43 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15065 Posts
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Poopi
France11823 Posts
It’s Rogue or Maru depending on your criterion and what happens next is not really relevant given the recent news (+ KR scene has become really small anyways with the military services etc) | ||
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dysenterymd
821 Posts
Barring something truly incredible the GOAT discussion is basically frozen once the Korean scene is dead though. If someone went on a truly dominant tear (suppose Serral/Reynor won every major tournament for 3 years in a row or something) maybe we could consider that, but even with a smaller scene I doubt we'll see that level of dominance by any one player. The other scenario where the GOAT discussion is reopened is if SC2, while remaining dead in Korea, enjoys a massive rennaissance in the rest of the world, but that's major hopium. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States468 Posts
On February 24 2023 08:38 Poopi wrote: There is not enough of a scene for GOAT conversations anymore. It’s Rogue or Maru depending on your criterion and what happens next is not really relevant given the recent news (+ KR scene has become really small anyways with the military services etc) uh... hello? serral? | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2135 Posts
Serral in not top 3 definitely, but in top 5 or top 10. It has been discussed before. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3960 Posts
On February 24 2023 15:58 swarminfestor wrote: Serral in not top 3 definitely, but in top 5 or top 10. It has been discussed before. Many times in the past but he has continued amassing achievements. After winning Katowice, Serral definitely has a shot at the GOAT title and definitely is not merely top 5 or even top 10. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany5358 Posts
On February 24 2023 05:25 luxon wrote: With the forced retirement of korean players (pre-tax 1st place winnings wouldn't even cover rent until the next tournament/paycheck), I wonder how much titles and and winnings will count towards a player's legacy. HeroMarine famously said on stream that if Serral, Clem, Reynor didn't exist he would win every Dreamhack Europe. This is essentially doing that, but for the koreans. If you take the top 10 players of each race in sc2 history, probably 26-27 out of 30 of them would be korean. If sc2 goes on for another decade, all these championships will be picked up by foreigners who never have to face anywhere near the caliber players 2015-2022 did. Can we still weigh them the same if the scene is permanently changed? I don't get that "uhhh they are killing specifically the Korean scene on purpose" Sc2 is an old game which is slowly coming to an end. That's it. EVERYONE will be making less money off of Starcraft. And by the way, the price pools for the ESL Masters are available for the Koreans as well. They are GLOBAL tournaments. INCLUDING the Koreans. This is getting ridiculous... | ||
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Balnazza
207 Posts
That being said: Just look towards other games. WC3 still has an active scene, got even a bit bigger after Reforged (the one really good thing it did actually), but even though Happy is wildly considered as the best player for years by now, you wouldn't really put him into the GOAT discussion. Moon, Sky, Grubby or Lyn for sure, but Happy? Not really. Depending how this year goes, you could still take this year for full-value or not, but I'm sure the next years will see a transition. As a random example: If most koreans would retire and so would Serral and Reynor, which leads to Heromarine, Clem and MaxPax dominating the remaining scene for years, you still wouldn't consider either of them as a GOAT-candidate - even with Reynors impressive world championship resume so far. | ||
Waxangel
United States31781 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland18332 Posts
On February 24 2023 21:30 Balnazza wrote: Serral or Rogue take the cake, Maru without a WC-title is still not even close. That being said: Just look towards other games. WC3 still has an active scene, got even a bit bigger after Reforged (the one really good thing it did actually), but even though Happy is wildly considered as the best player for years by now, you wouldn't really put him into the GOAT discussion. Moon, Sky, Grubby or Lyn for sure, but Happy? Not really. Depending how this year goes, you could still take this year for full-value or not, but I'm sure the next years will see a transition. As a random example: If most koreans would retire and so would Serral and Reynor, which leads to Heromarine, Clem and MaxPax dominating the remaining scene for years, you still wouldn't consider either of them as a GOAT-candidate - even with Reynors impressive world championship resume so far. I’d always said there’s so much variance between eras comparisons get super tricky, so it is with this. In the absence of a Flash level player, I guess you’re just aiming to be in the conversation. And now if some hypothetical Flash player emerged into this scene, would the depth be there for them to stake that claim? | ||
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Mutaller
United States906 Posts
Greatest SC2 player of all time (includes wol to lotv, all tournaments early GSL to current), or Greatest Blizzard Era Player (WoL to LotV Blizzard funded SC2 high prize pool tournaments), Greatest LotV player of all time (LotV inception to current). Do you really want to say early WoL counts for GOAT, but 2023 tournaments don't when the current tournaments even with diminished prize pools and retirements are played at a higher level than then. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8259 Posts
Just a reminder that in 2022 there were 18 players that made minimum wage in prize money playing SC2. (Minimum wage where I live is 15$/h). There were 21 koreans players that made more 5000$ all year and 6 of them are now retired. This is not 2012 BW that had 150 full time progamer living in teamhouses. We are already in a scene half full of part time player and old timer that cruise on their skills developped a decade earlier. If we wanted to stop the goat conversation when the scene fell off then that moment was like half a decade ago. Next year a player will still have the opportunity to earn probably arround 200 k$ if they dominate the scene. Plenty of money to keep on practicing. I'm not saying the cut are not important but it will probably mean that instead of 18 players making minimum wage it's gonna be like 9 or 10 people. Or that there will probably only be like a dozen or less Korean making 5000$/year. But like, as a whole it's not like the overall logic of the scene will change that much. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1721 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2519 Posts
But it's Serral. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13618 Posts
On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote: Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom. But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8839 Posts
"Greatness" cares about context - it NEEDS context otherwise it wouldn't be a remotely interesting designation or discussion. If you're an above average player in an era of mediocre play, anyone that knows anything about the history of the game wouldn't even put them in the same room as a more mediocre player who was playing in an era of the utmost, highest skill level. So, I don't really see this being an issue if global competition changes or sucks - the skill ceiling is really obvious in a game like Starcraft. You'll notice that for that reason, players from early WOL aren't typically brought up in the GOAT conversation despite being crazy during their era (thinking of players like MVP, or MC). It may wind up being the same for players in this next era of the game's life depending on the level of competition we get. There is a reason that there is a debate around Lebron or Jordan being the GOAT. | ||
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TossHeroes
183 Posts
Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place | ||
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Shinokuki
United States770 Posts
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Blargh
United States2006 Posts
But I think Maru is the most appropriate "GOAT", given how he's basically been a top 5-10 player for over a decade, all the way from 2012. No other player has the same longevity and ranking to compete, even if Rogue and Serral were more dominant in their peaks. | ||
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