EPTComparing MVP with Serral in whole SC2 is like comparing Fruitdealer with MVP in WOL.
How do we measure GOATs without Korean SC2? - Page 10
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Comparing MVP with Serral in whole SC2 is like comparing Fruitdealer with MVP in WOL. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
So even though the game has evolved, it is easier to compare across eras. In SC2, not only did the last expansióon came out like 6 years later, but the game changed so much with Lotv with the faster game and changes to the economy, that is literally impossible to conpare with WoL. And thats without taking into account all the patches in between (queen buffs, infestor rework, mothership core, etc). So honestly. LotV might as well be a completely different game than Sc2 WoL (and no, the level of skill wasnt lower then). | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On March 09 2023 07:59 [Phantom] wrote: I do think that many dont consider that in sc1 all the professional scene was playyed in BW. And that BW was literally released the same year as the base game. So even though the game has evolved, it is easier to compare across eras. In SC2, not only did the last expansióon came out like 6 years later, but the game changed so much with Lotv with the faster game and changes to the economy, that is literally impossible to conpare with WoL. And thats without taking into account all the patches in between (queen buffs, infestor rework, mothership core, etc). So honestly. LotV might as well be a completely different game than Sc2 WoL (and no, the level of skill wasnt lower then). Watch MVP vs Nestea G2 on Shakuras Plateau at Blizzcon. And how hard Nestea fumbles all his tactics/harass at the end, eventually doing a terrible yolo play, and A move with his army not attacking together. You don't think the level of skill was lower then? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On March 09 2023 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Watch MVP vs Nestea G2 on Shakuras Plateau at Blizzcon. And how hard Nestea fumbles all his tactics/harass at the end, eventually doing a terrible yolo play, and A move with his army not attacking together. You don't think the level of skill was lower then? Watch Maru fly his first Medivac drop straight over the opponents natural where it dies to a Cyclone  players today also make huge blunders sometimes | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On March 09 2023 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: Watch Maru fly his first Medivac drop straight over the opponents natural where it dies to a Cyclone players today also make huge blunders sometimes That's true, but the rate they make them at is much lower, and to a much smaller degree. Army control and micro for example is at a whole new level now than back then, especially with things like WP micro, and Parting's blink micro that kills players off just a 4 gate blink opener. Players actually split units up, poke ahead, prespread, etc. For example splitting a few marauders ahead of your army to pressure a base, to mitigate the strength of Storm or banelings. Back then they thought just clumping and A moving was the best way to engage. Nestea just didn't know what to do in that game, he needed to have concluded that the map is not winnable lategame if Terran splits it up, and either keep throwing waves of units at him to wittle him down and try to mine more bases, or play the efficiency game lategame if he feels he can do that. Instead he tried to do some drops and harass, they fail, he's actually still doing totally fine at this point since he has 2 more bases than MVP, but then he falls completely apart and does a random attack with everything, and even though he wasn't in a rush he couldn't even spend a few seconds making sure he got his army together before engaging. It was a whole nother level of mess. Another thing to consider is that over time, players got better at defending and shutting down most harass early game. And patches had to keep buffing harass more and more to try to maintain some level of viable harass. I think that's a very concrete example of player skill improving comparatively overtime. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On March 09 2023 19:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That's true, but the rate they make them at is much lower, and to a much smaller degree. Army control and micro for example is at a whole new level now than back then, especially with things like WP micro, and Parting's blink micro that kills players off just a 4 gate blink opener. Players actually split units up, poke ahead, prespread, etc. For example splitting a few marauders ahead of your army to pressure a base, to mitigate the strength of Storm or banelings. Back then they thought just clumping and A moving was the best way to engage. Nestea just didn't know what to do in that game, he needed to have concluded that the map is not winnable lategame if Terran splits it up, and either keep throwing waves of units at him to wittle him down and try to mine more bases, or play the efficiency game lategame if he feels he can do that. Instead he tried to do some drops and harass, they fail, he's actually still doing totally fine at this point since he has 2 more bases than MVP, but then he falls completely apart and does a random attack with everything, and even though he wasn't in a rush he couldn't even spend a few seconds making sure he got his army together before engaging. It was a whole nother level of mess. Another thing to consider is that over time, players got better at defending and shutting down most harass early game. And patches had to keep buffing harass more and more to try to maintain some level of viable harass. I think that's a very concrete example of player skill improving comparatively overtime. I definitely agree that players have gotten better since 2011. However, it has to be noted that the changes to the game also made the things you mention easier to do. Warpprism Micro is easier with pickup range, drop multitasking is easier with medivac boost, splitting your army up is easier with remove army from controlgroup hotkey, managing your economy is easier with visible worker counts, you can stack injects, less minerals per base means you have to expand faster which gives the opponent more openings to do damage etc. In WoL the players were definitely worse as the players were just figuring out how to play the game, but the question whether players are better now vs in 2014 for example is not as easy to answer. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On March 09 2023 21:10 Charoisaur wrote: I definitely agree that players have gotten better since 2011. However, it has to be noted that the changes to the game also made the things you mention easier to do. Warpprism Micro is easier with pickup range, drop multitasking is easier with medivac boost, splitting your army up is easier with remove army from controlgroup hotkey, managing your economy is easier with visible worker counts, you can stack injects, less minerals per base means you have to expand faster which gives the opponent more openings to do damage etc. In WoL the players were definitely worse as the players were just figuring out how to play the game, but the question whether players are better now vs in 2014 for example is not as easy to answer. That's true, there were a lot of QoL and balance changes to make it easier to play the game and control things. Yeah, when there were still teams and coaches, 2014-2016 is harder for me to say if I think they're worse than players in 2017-2022. I think they've still gotten better, but while i see many things i think are done better, there are also harder things to see that are probably done worse (things like game sense, mentality, build choices, etc.). When I see players like Serral dominating in 2018-2019, or Rogue at his peak, or Creator in GSL 2022 S1, that felt like it's better than back then. I felt like Creator was doing so many ambitious things and little things that other Protoss don't. But clearly he also still had a lot of areas lacking, like herO's defense and game sense was still overall better. Admittedly I also didn't watch a ton of SC2 during 2014-2016. I guess they are probably roughly about the same, since im sure there are things done both worse and better. | ||
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Xamo
Spain874 Posts
Now it is Maru or Serral or Rogue forever and ever. Answering OP's question, there is no way any new (downscaled) tournament win closes this discussion. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8907 Posts
On March 09 2023 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: Watch Maru fly his first Medivac drop straight over the opponents natural where it dies to a Cyclone players today also make huge blunders sometimes i think that it's a misnomer that "# of mistakes" = "overall skill" when we're referring to the skill level of starcraft eras. what should be measured is skill floor and skill ceiling. the skill ceiling in current day sc2 is much higher than season 1&2 of the GSL where Steppes of War was in the map pool and played in a grand final. hell, we were still learning how to use all of the units. burrowed banelings were still catching people off guard. inCa was winning with just void rays. broodlord infestor was the peak endgame. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On March 15 2023 07:22 BluemoonSC wrote: i think that it's a misnomer that "# of mistakes" = "overall skill" when we're referring to the skill level of starcraft eras. what should be measured is skill floor and skill ceiling. the skill ceiling in current day sc2 is much higher than season 1&2 of the GSL where Steppes of War was in the map pool and played in a grand final. hell, we were still learning how to use all of the units. burrowed banelings were still catching people off guard. inCa was winning with just void rays. broodlord infestor was the peak endgame. Yep and it wasn't until the 2nd half of HotS that people realized that mass raven (with bio or mech support) was OP in TvZ. And this is considering that in HotS, Raven already got nerfed a few times, and they already had Viper Abduct to at least pick off Ravens here and there. BL Infestor wouldn't have stood a chance against a fleet of Raven/Viking with some ground support. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On March 15 2023 08:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yep and it wasn't until the 2nd half of HotS that people realized that mass raven (with bio or mech support) was OP in TvZ. And this is considering that in HotS, Raven already got nerfed a few times, and they already had Viper Abduct to at least pick off Ravens here and there. BL Infestor wouldn't have stood a chance against a fleet of Raven/Viking with some ground support. Raven sucked in WoL because seeker missile required 125 energy (in HotS 75 which is why they started to get used) | ||
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JJH777
United States4376 Posts
On March 15 2023 08:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yep and it wasn't until the 2nd half of HotS that people realized that mass raven (with bio or mech support) was OP in TvZ. And this is considering that in HotS, Raven already got nerfed a few times, and they already had Viper Abduct to at least pick off Ravens here and there. BL Infestor wouldn't have stood a chance against a fleet of Raven/Viking with some ground support. Zerg apologists now not just defending the current era but also 2012/2013 Bl/Infestor? Crazy | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On March 15 2023 09:38 JJH777 wrote: Zerg apologists now not just defending the current era but also 2012/2013 Bl/Infestor? Crazy I'm anything but a zerg apologist, I'm just saying that people in WoL were bad and were still learning a lot of basic things. And that just cus people thought BL/Infestor was the strongest unit comp in WoL doesn't mean it was true, cus mass raven comps were definitely stronger, especially when PDD used to last 3 mins, 4 mins if upgraded, and zerg didn't have vipers. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary457 Posts
On March 12 2023 23:53 Xamo wrote: The funny thing for me is that this year there was a true opportunity to close the GOAT discussion at IEM. Had Maru won those finals, the answer would have been clear, at least for non-fanboys. But our SC2 gods (or deamons) did not want that to happen, and blessed Oliveira instead. Now it is Maru or Serral or Rogue forever and ever. Answering OP's question, there is no way any new (downscaled) tournament win closes this discussion. As a neutral, i think its clear that Rogue is the "goat". Maru won his 5th GSL in the absence of Rogue, he lacks the Blizzcon/IEM win. In fact not only lacks, but he had very disappointing blizzcon runs again and again and again. Getting eliminated in matches we expected him to win. Rogue also has more weekend type tournament titles. Yes, Serral has won 2 world championships, but he hasn't won anything in Korea. Had he won at least one GSL, it would have been a different discussion, be he hasn't. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23663 Posts
On March 05 2023 15:19 Monochromatic wrote: Early SC2 was a different beast. Strategies came and went incredibly quickly, and with them certain players. It was not uncommon for someone to dominate and then suddenly vanish as the meta evolved. Inca made the GSL finals with dark templars, a blue flame hellion opening just straight up won a tournament, and patches changed things incredibly quickly. During this time it was incredibly rare to be consistent. MVP was the only exception. There was a GomTvT era, and MVP's rise came after it. In fact, during his period of domination, Terran would be nerfed regularly. He was significantly ahead of other top Terrans, like MMA or Bomber. His greatest strength is his ability to innovate and execute: he always found a way to victory. This is something that is incredibly overlooked in the current game, since everything is figured out. MVP basically invented Terran. He used everything and anything and somehow he was able to win. If you combined SoS and Rogue, MVP would be the result. I will always remember his GSL final against Squirtle as one of the best Starcraft matches. He built battlecruisers in g5 and was going to win with them until an archon toilet turned the tides. At that time battlecruisers were an awful unit - TotalBiscuit had a series going where he would try to win them because they were so terribly bad. I think the modern equivalent would be using HTs normal attack to try to kill someone - it's such a dumb idea that you wouldn't even try. But MVP not only made it work, he used a never before seen build in a GSL final. His career was cut short due to a wrist injury. Saying he had a lack of effort or will is just ignorant. He won WCS EU despite this injury - by completely remaking his playstyle to be less micro intensive. He also greatly reduced his practice schedule, meaning that for MVP playing below standard was still enough to win a premier tournament during a period where competition was at its peak. MVP is underrated in the GOAT discussion. GOAT isn't a question of most tournament wins or the most prize money. It's rather a question of who's greatest. MVP is undisputedly the king of wings, while no one else is considered the king of their era. His star may have shined briefly, but it was brighter than any other. Well said, and a neat encapsulation of why I consider ‘greatest’ and ‘the best’ to be two very different things | ||
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Comedy
451 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23663 Posts
On May 20 2023 07:36 Comedy wrote: you can't exclude the 'eye test'. Serral has titles, sure, but considering how good he is, you would expect him to have more. He is the best. Talking at their absolute peaks. Serral is excellent at almost everything, rarely gets flustered into mistakes, rarely makes anything but the right strategic or tactical call. He’s rarely had a weak matchup either, probably his worst period (after he’d hit his current form) was a time where he maybe struggled in ZvZ against Reynor and a few other top ZvZers. Maru has more holes in his game, he does make mistakes and bad decisions more frequently. Purely relatively speaking of course! On the flipside he’s bulletproof mechanically and he can basically pull stuff off that nobody else can. He can make holds and pushes work he has no right to. Plus while he may make more mistakes, allied to his mechanical chops he has a great eye for making the kind of moves an opponent has discounted as a possibility. ‘Damn why did I give up that position, he shouldn’t have that much stuff, and moved it into a great position after I cleaned up that attack he just did’. Plus his legendary super lategame They’re both definitely up there in my eye test, for slightly different reasons. Serral is just a relentless winning machine at his best, unflappable and he’ll play a game straight out the textbook more often than not. Maru in full flight can be a thing of beauty, a watch full of ‘holy shit what did I just see?’ exclamations Privilege to watch these two and some of the other great players we’ve seen over the years | ||
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tigera6
3191 Posts
Maru is fully capable of doing the exact same thing, but he just doesnt want to, and rather to stick to stuff that Byun-like every once in a while, or proxying thats rewarding if it works but punishing if it doesnt. If he put his mind into doing just the basic stuff and let his mechanical skill carry him, he would be a much more consistent player, but also less interesting to watch. They are like 2 sides a coin in term of style, but both are extremely strong mechanically, has great vision and excel in pretty much any stage of the game. | ||
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JJH777
United States4376 Posts
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