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On March 06 2023 04:47 Pandain wrote:
People who think GSLs are more important than world championships are making completely losing arguments. When we talk about Byun do we talk about his 2016 GSL win (during kespa!!) or his world championship win? Obviously the latter. And any single player would gladly trade a GSL win for a world championship win.
You can debate the ratios (e.g. two GSLs vs one world championship) but anyone who tries to make a one to one comparison or even GSL more important is just plain out wrong. No player would think that.
Last point: everyone loves Mvp but he was never as dominant as people who came after (2013 inno, 2018 maru/serral, etc.). I'm not even really sure he was ever "dominant" - he was just the best player but not in a overpowering way. Also he played in a time when we literally had 9-10 GSLs a year. If that had kept up Maru would have like 20 GSLs by now, if not more. And in those days there were weekend tournaments literally every week. You can't just abstractly point to his tournament wins without that huge caveat.
That's true - often people say that the scene had more players back then, so it was harder to win. But there were also way more GSLs and tournaments going on, with players spread out. So, it might roughly balance out.
I'm really curious, since you guys are bringing up a lot of great arguments and interesting perspectives.
If World Championship is worth more than a GSL, then is sOs above MVP? They won almost the same # of tournies, MVP slightly more, but sOs has 3 World Champs compared to 3 GSLs, and sOs also has many 2nd places at GSL/Supers. Even if sOs did not win any GSL/Super, he did win a GSL Hot6ix cup, and his many 2nd places at GSL/Supers may support that he IS a top GSL player, and that World Championships are still harder than GSL.
MVP has won 3 GSLs, a WCS EU, an IEM Cologne, an MLG Anaheim, and the weakest GSL vs the World ever. The MLG tourny was especially memorable because of things like Idra vs Slayers, the Slayers BFH drop build dominatnig, mech and hellions dominating TvT, all of the great TvT matches between MVP and all the rising Slayers Terrans, etc. I think you could say that tourny was highly competitive from a "feeling" as a spectator, though the prize pool was tiny, $5000 compared to the DH's that Serral are winning $20k at.
sOs has won 2 IEM World Championships, a WCS World championship. He won an IEM Taipei. He also won a 2014 Hot6ix Cup, which is less than a GSL, but maybe around a GSL Super as it did have a $18k prize for 1st place. He also got a few 2nd places at GSL/Super/WCS, and a few 3rd/4th places at GSL/Super. Even if he did not win those, people value soO for being able to get many 2nd places, so I think all those 4-5 2nd places do count for something for sOs.
I would say sOs's 3 World Championships are at least equal or more valuable than MVP's 3 GSL wins.
sOs's IEM Taipei is about equal to MVP's IEM Cologne, and sOs's GSL Hot6ix cup win is equal to maybe MVP's WCS EU win or the GSL vs the World.
However, I had put MVP 1 spot higher on my own list, because I felt most people also valued those early GSLs more than those World Championships. However, now I'm not sure if I feel that way anymore, since I do think that sOs's wins in 2012-2017 was more competitive and "legit" than WoL in 2011-2012.
It makes me think, because if am to put Serral above Innovation/Life due to his World Championships weighing more than a GSL, then maybe I should also be putting sOs above MVP to be consistent.
However, if you guys think MVP should be above sOs because of the strength of a GSL win, then maybe I would put Serral on the same tier as Innovation/Life, because even if Serral did win many international premieres like DH/HSC/TSL where there were Koreans and pretty good $10-20k 1st place prizes, maybe those tournament wins just weren't as "great" as Innovation winning 1 Starleague, 3 GSL, 1 GSL vs the World, 1 WCS season, 2 IEM regionals, a WESG, etc.
I count Starleague and WCS season to be pretty much like GSLs, so that's as if he won 5 GSLs, a GSL vs the World, a weak World Championship (WESG), and a few other international premieres.
However, due to the sheer number of tournies Serral has won - 2 World Championships, 2 GSL vs the Worlds, several DH/HSC/TSLs with KRs attending, and a bunch of WCS EU regionals even if the competition is weak, I would put him slightly above, but now I'm rethinking if I'd bump Serral down to Innovation/Life tier than Maru/Rogue tier. Maybe Innovation's 1 WCS season win for example is equivalent to as many as 3 of Serral's DH/HSC/TSL wins.
But also, it is interesting that the value between GSL and World Championships has changed over time. At first, I'm sure most would agree GSL is worth more than those very early and small World Championships. In 2012-2017, maybe they're roughly equivalent, though most would probably say a World Championship is worth more. But in 2018-2022? Since the foreigner scene has caught up with Koreans and are very competitive, perhaps a World Championship is cleanly above a GSL's value, in which case I would put Serral above Innovation, and up there with Maru/Rogue.
Also, Serral did win 2 more recent GSL vs the Worlds, and perhaps you could say the gap in value between a GSL vs the World and a regular GSL is closer than back then, with foreigners being stronger.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals.
sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius.
I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016
In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory.
Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him.
But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't.
I still think MVP is the best in WoL
Life the best in host.
Maru-serral-rogue in lotv.
Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl
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On March 06 2023 04:47 Pandain wrote:
People who think GSLs are more important than world championships are making completely losing arguments. When we talk about Byun do we talk about his 2016 GSL win (during kespa!!) or his world championship win? Obviously the latter. And any single player would gladly trade a GSL win for a world championship win.
You can debate the ratios (e.g. two GSLs vs one world championship) but anyone who tries to make a one to one comparison or even GSL more important is just plain out wrong. No player would think that.
Last point: everyone loves Mvp but he was never as dominant as people who came after (2013 inno, 2018 maru/serral, etc.). I'm not even really sure he was ever "dominant" - he was just the best player but not in a overpowering way. Also he played in a time when we literally had 9-10 GSLs a year. If that had kept up Maru would have like 20 GSLs by now, if not more. And in those days there were weekend tournaments literally every week. You can't just abstractly point to his tournament wins without that huge caveat.
MVP was dominant in WoL. his only glaring loss was to Bomber in Code A
it was only until Life's emergence that would end his GSL run at the end of WoL
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On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 Show nested quote +In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl
I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me.
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On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me.
Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody
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On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody
I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT
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On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 Show nested quote +In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl
True, though I guess I didn't really count Blizzcon and WCG for anything much. It only had 2 players from KR, so it was either going to be MVP or Nestea's win. At the time KRs were the only really competitive players, with foreigners like Naniwa and Sen having a chance to beat mid level KR players, but not MVP/Nestea tier, and in the end Naniwa and Sen faced each other to advance.
And the maps/rules were not fair or competitive, it was Bo3 and they had maps like Shattered Temple despite them having been rotated out of the competitive map pool already. So, the maps were extremely Terran favored. I remember how painful it was watching Nestea play MVP on that map pool, because he definitely could have won otherwise.
I love WCG in BW, but in SC2 it seems to mean almost nothing. MVP won 1st place and Xigua was 2nd, MKP and Supernova were the only other 2 KRs there, and Supernova was only a low Code S player who surprisingly qualified over other GSL players that year.
I guess you do have to count them for something though, maybe close-ish to a IEM premiere or MLG premiere just cus of the prizepool, but I count them as much less just because they aren't as competitive from a rules + participants stand point. I feel like that Blizzcon was more of a fun showmatch than any serious tourny, which is why they went with Shattered Temple because Lost Temple is a classic that people are familiar with.
Regarding Taeja, I do think people have forgotten him, he's still at ~#12 on my list, his major weakpoint is that he hasn't done well in any GSL events, but he did really well at weekend events. That said, I remember there was an article that actually gave Taeja the #1 GOAT position above life, and I do remember disagreeing with it pretty strongly, feeling like it had a bit of TL bias in it, though article aren't all serious business and nothing wrong with giving a bit of home team love, so I didn't mind it too much.
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On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT
The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals
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The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse.
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On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse.
So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it!
On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals
Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that.
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On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that.
Life was generally a poor Proleague player compared to his performance in individual tournaments
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On March 07 2023 23:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that. Life was generally a poor Proleague player compared to his performance in individual tournaments
True...though I was curious and looked it up: The last matches he played he failed to qualify for SSL S1, maybe that's the slumb I remembered
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Life did have a slump after he joined KT. He was adapting to the changes they wanted to implement into his playstyle, or at least thats what was being said at the time. And yeah he was never super great in Proleague.
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On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that.
That's an extreme take, I'm just suggesting that the era after Kespa guys came over until the Korean scene started to decline due to several retirements and general decline in the game's popularity.
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On March 08 2023 05:16 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that. That's an extreme take, I'm just suggesting that the era after Kespa guys came over until the Korean scene started to decline due to several retirements and general decline in the game's popularity.
This is an age-old debate that I already had to endure in WC3: When exactly was the peak of the game?
For SC2, it is rather simple for me: The peak was probably between 2016-19. Ironically also the time we finally got a great eco-system, giving foreigners the breathing room they needed to catch up to Korea.
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On March 08 2023 07:22 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 05:16 lorestarcraft wrote:On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that. That's an extreme take, I'm just suggesting that the era after Kespa guys came over until the Korean scene started to decline due to several retirements and general decline in the game's popularity. This is an age-old debate that I already had to endure in WC3: When exactly was the peak of the game? For SC2, it is rather simple for me: The peak was probably between 2016-19. Ironically also the time we finally got a great eco-system, giving foreigners the breathing room they needed to catch up to Korea.
By what metric was that the peak of the game? 2013-2016 had more pro players, more top level pro players and a more professional training environment (coaches etc.).
I don't the 2 high level foreigners we got in 2016-2019 make up for that.
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On March 08 2023 07:22 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 05:16 lorestarcraft wrote:On March 07 2023 22:04 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 21:54 lorestarcraft wrote:
The real GOAT would have to be a Korean that played before Europeans started winning international events, because European players didn't suddenly get better, Koreans got worse. So FruitDealer as the first GSL champ is the GOAT, because no one ever got better, he got only worse. Got it! On March 07 2023 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 07:53 Balnazza wrote:On March 07 2023 05:25 Charoisaur wrote:On March 07 2023 03:44 Glorfindelio wrote:On March 07 2023 02:33 [Phantom] wrote:Mvp also won a blizzcon and a WCG world finals. sOs is great but IDK if I would put him above Mvp. Though sOs is definitely underated, and disrespected due to his weird strategies, but I have no doubt the guy is a strategic genius. I was looking at old TL.net powerrankings, They had this to say about Maru in 2016 In terms of sustained peak consistency, there is no one else on this list that can match Maru. From the day he won OSL in 2013 to now, he has always been a Top 3 player in his race (and at points top 1). This is not something you can say for any other player on this list (Even INnoVation had a drop off in the early half of 2014). If I had to describe Maru, he most reminds me of Life. He doesn’t have the crazy peaks of domination where he kills everyone, but he has an incredible consistency, one that has lasted three years with Maru just wailing on his opponents with constant aggression. Among the Terrans, he is probably the best there ever was at taking initiative in a game and snowballing that into a victory. Do, IMO that is proof of how great maru is, there is no other player in the history of the game as consistent as him. But, again I don't think you can say there is a GOAT in sc2. Maybe if maru had won the world championship this year but he didn't. I still think MVP is the best in WoL Life the best in host. Maru-serral-rogue in lotv. Funnily enough I found a post here in TL where there was a powerank of the best HotS player, and the player they had in #2 after Life was.... Taeja. Which, yikes, rofl I'm pretty sure Life is the most talented player I ever watched in SC2. Still blows my mind he did what he did--even worse than Savior, to me. Yeah if Life didn't matchfix I'm 100% sure this thread wouldn't exist. He had won 10 premier tournaments at the age of 18. Serral at the same age was a nobody I think he already was in a bit of a slumb before the scandal (though that might just have been the pressure?) and I think he never really got to show himself in LotV, so I wouldn't go for 100%. But if he had kept himself clean and on a somewhat comparable level as before...you are probably right, he would have been the GOAT The last premier tournament he played was Blizzcon 2015 where he reached the finals Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the scandal become public right after he transfered back from KT to ST/SBENU and he had a really poor Proleague Stage before that? You are right, it wasn't a major slumb, but I feel like remembering people where like "huh, maybe he gets his groove back at his old team" or something like that. That's an extreme take, I'm just suggesting that the era after Kespa guys came over until the Korean scene started to decline due to several retirements and general decline in the game's popularity. This is an age-old debate that I already had to endure in WC3: When exactly was the peak of the game? For SC2, it is rather simple for me: The peak was probably between 2016-19. Ironically also the time we finally got a great eco-system, giving foreigners the breathing room they needed to catch up to Korea.
That might have been peak LotV, but I definitely think the SC2 scene was richest in that merged Kespa era, early HotS. It may seem like it sucked for foreigners, but Blizz gave them tons of opportunities, and eventually even fully region-locked it for them. I wouldn't say the scene was bad because of that though. It was so exciting watching Proleague, OSL, SSL, GSL, etc. I'm not even sure if there were any team leagues of relevance in LotV until these Chinese WTL one started in 2020, a bit of a shame.
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EPT
