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On May 20 2023 12:27 tigera6 wrote:
What Serral does better than Maru is that, he ALWAYS stick to his standard build, especially against lower level opponent. He will just do what he does carefully and just slowly win the game like its just another day at the work. Outside of ZvZ, that has been Serral best feature, is that he doesnt lose because hes making poor decision, you have to beat him down.
Maru is fully capable of doing the exact same thing, but he just doesnt want to, and rather to stick to stuff that Byun-like every once in a while, or proxying thats rewarding if it works but punishing if it doesnt. If he put his mind into doing just the basic stuff and let his mechanical skill carry him, he would be a much more consistent player, but also less interesting to watch.
They are like 2 sides a coin in term of style, but both are extremely strong mechanically, has great vision and excel in pretty much any stage of the game.
Not sure this is a strength of Serral seeing as multiple players have abused this predictability like Zest at IEM Katowice.
And yeah, the reactive style isn't as solid for the other races, for example Clem who's mechanically as good as Serral but also very predictable gets this predictability abused over and over by Dark, Rogue etc. which is why he's never won an international title
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I think the predictability of Serral is overstated, in 2018 he was pretty much just a reactive player but since then he's mixed cheese into most of his big series. He's still more predictable than most top players though.
A T/P can't play as reactively as a Zerg, but I also think there's a difference between normal build rotation/aggressive plays and builds that are downright reckless. Playing aggressively/decisively against a player worse than you is fine, but if you're the top dog you should still avoid builds that your opponent can shut down simply if scouted. Maru is at times guilty of this.
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On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp
He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see
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On March 01 2023 16:45 tlnetuser108 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 21:30 Balnazza wrote:
Serral or Rogue take the cake, Maru without a WC-title is still not even close.
That being said: Just look towards other games. WC3 still has an active scene, got even a bit bigger after Reforged (the one really good thing it did actually), but even though Happy is wildly considered as the best player for years by now, you wouldn't really put him into the GOAT discussion. Moon, Sky, Grubby or Lyn for sure, but Happy? Not really.
Depending how this year goes, you could still take this year for full-value or not, but I'm sure the next years will see a transition. As a random example: If most koreans would retire and so would Serral and Reynor, which leads to Heromarine, Clem and MaxPax dominating the remaining scene for years, you still wouldn't consider either of them as a GOAT-candidate - even with Reynors impressive world championship resume so far. Hard disagree. The GSL is way more prestigious than any world championship. Preparation style tournaments are inherently more difficult and require infinitely more skill than weekenders like Katowice. This is why Reynor, despite winning less than Serral, is more of a contender for GOAT than Serral is. At least he tried. Beating GSL players outside of GSL is totally different than beating GSL players inside of GSL
Stop it what’s the difference between beating a player in gsl or the same player outside gsl when we’re talking about the goat you either get it done or you don’t no excuses and serral has beaten everyone more than they’ve beaten him period. Serral is the goat anyone saying otherwise is kididng themselves
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Isn't chess like the only somewhat relevant sport that uses a "you can prepare for one specific opponent"-kind of thing and they only do it for the World Champion match, nowhere else? In any other sport or esport, it is always a bracket, always very fast pace rounds. The best Esports otherwise has to offer is maybe LoL where you have days or even a week between the playoff rounds, but anywhere else?
Chess doesn't need any mechanical skills, that is why the emphasize on preparation is awesome. But in SC2? I would say a fast-pace weekender says much more about your skill and your ability to adapt then "can I figure out my opponent better than he can figure out me in a week(s)-long preparation?"
Which again underlines: World Championship > GSL in that regard
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On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see
Rogue actually has winning record in games and split equally with Serral in Bo3+ 1v1 match. I guess you just never bother to fact check whatever you saying?
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Jesus Christ can we stop with these GOAT conversations already? It's dumb in every sport, it's dumb in StarCraft. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's necessarily incorrect to say that e.g. Flash is the greatest BW player ever (although I'm not saying that a statement like that is true by default), but when you need to have these extended comparisons of titles (i.e. when the margins are noticeably more slim), you're just in for a never-ending circlejerk of fans of said players all making separate cases for their own favorite to be the most worthy. I mean for crying out loud, you can't even measure normal athletes from different eras properly and they play in the same teams, tournaments and formats year after year, decade after decade. But somehow StarCraft 2, a game with a 13 year history with 3 different expansions and countless balance patches, tournament structure, amount as well as format changes are supposed to make me believe that you can compare these top players of the game with each other in any comprehensive way.
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Northern Ireland27148 Posts
On May 21 2023 19:43 Balnazza wrote:
Isn't chess like the only somewhat relevant sport that uses a "you can prepare for one specific opponent"-kind of thing and they only do it for the World Champion match, nowhere else? In any other sport or esport, it is always a bracket, always very fast pace rounds. The best Esports otherwise has to offer is maybe LoL where you have days or even a week between the playoff rounds, but anywhere else?
Chess doesn't need any mechanical skills, that is why the emphasize on preparation is awesome. But in SC2? I would say a fast-pace weekender says much more about your skill and your ability to adapt then "can I figure out my opponent better than he can figure out me in a week(s)-long preparation?"
Which again underlines: World Championship > GSL in that regard
They both have their merits. More thinking on your feet in a weekender in general, but more generic strats. More funky stuff in a prep tournament and one may have to adapt to a build you’ve never seen before or will see again. Being able to adapt if your plan A you’ve been working on for a good week+ isn’t viable, there’s on-the-fly adaptation there too.
I dig them both personally as formats and they benefit from slightly different skill sets, albeit I think it’s more interesting in BW again as its maps are more varied.
There is the element of having a team or a set of practice partners in doing that prep though. Better partners, hey that cool build you brought to the table maybe wasn’t even your build, which I think people do neglect to mention a bit.
I’d have the WC as above a single Code S just because it’s the WC, more rare and more money, not because of the format though
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The prep time GSL offers isn't even used the way critics of that style think aside from rare occasions from players like Rogue. it's certainly not used that way by Maru of all players. GSL prep time is used to prepare optimized builds and get yourself in prime condition for the matchup you'll be playing. Finding holes in another person's play is secondary and unrealistic in most cases.
GSL just gives players the opportunity to play at their theoretical peak. Whereas in weekend tournaments players do the best they can given the circumstances but it will never be the their peak play. I'm far more interested in peak vs peak than what players offer in weekend tournaments.
For prestige I'd still give the edge to world championships in the modern era. Too many top players are missing from GSL now and the prize money decrease hurts. Before we actually got some good non Koreans though Korean leagues were definitely way harder to win than world championships. There were basically 8 charity slots at every world championship back then. Even 2018 was 7 charity slots. 2019 forward is where I'd say world championships overtook starleagues in terms of difficulty.
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On May 21 2023 21:07 Akio wrote:
Jesus Christ can we stop with these GOAT conversations already? It's dumb in every sport, it's dumb in StarCraft. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's necessarily incorrect to say that e.g. Flash is the greatest BW player ever (although I'm not saying that a statement like that is true by default), but when you need to have these extended comparisons of titles (i.e. when the margins are noticeably more slim), you're just in for a never-ending circlejerk of fans of said players all making separate cases for their own favorite to be the most worthy. I mean for crying out loud, you can't even measure normal athletes from different eras properly and they play in the same teams, tournaments and formats year after year, decade after decade. But somehow StarCraft 2, a game with a 13 year history with 3 different expansions and countless balance patches, tournament structure, amount as well as format changes are supposed to make me believe that you can compare these top players of the game with each other in any comprehensive way.
Totally agreed, but really maru is obviously the goat.
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On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see
This logic is so flawed; I don't agree with MVP at the very least, but if we are using h2h, then you might as well check his stats against Happy or Vortix
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Serral proves once again he is the GOAT
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On May 22 2023 05:50 uselless wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see This logic is so flawed; I don't agree with MVP at the very least, but if we are using h2h, then you might as well check his stats against Happy or Vortix
But are happy and vortix in the goat convo? No
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On March 01 2023 14:55 Blargh wrote:
I would actually say starting about now is when you could determine the definitive SC2 GOAT because everything here onward carries so little weight that even if someone was super dominant for the next 5 years, it'd never compare to the last 10 years.
But I think Maru is the most appropriate "GOAT", given how he's basically been a top 5-10 player for over a decade, all the way from 2012. No other player has the same longevity and ranking to compete, even if Rogue and Serral were more dominant in their peaks.
Youve got a point. But Serral has been top Zerg since 2018. Quite some time now. Though Maru's early Premier wins, regularity and specially dominance in GSL... I think Maru takes the GOAT title.
Maru and Serral Top 2 for sure, with Kelazhur trailing just after
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On May 22 2023 05:50 uselless wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see This logic is so flawed; I don't agree with MVP at the very least, but if we are using h2h, then you might as well check his stats against Happy or Vortix
Serral was a baby back then.
Serral vs Maru, and Serral vs Rogue reflects their peak h2h
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Northern Ireland27148 Posts
On May 22 2023 10:03 Itsxjoeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2023 05:50 uselless wrote:On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see This logic is so flawed; I don't agree with MVP at the very least, but if we are using h2h, then you might as well check his stats against Happy or Vortix But are happy and vortix in the goat convo? No
Happy is at least in that ballpark with WC3, which does have some tangential relevance to this discussion.
In a game that’s past its eSports peak, and has been pretty stable for quite some time, he’s achieved some preposterous feats by just executing a (relatively) figured out game like a monster.
He may be the best player in pure skill terms, but how do we judge that in terms of that more intangible ‘greatness’ against the innovators, or players that were taking home the big titles when WC3 was at its competitive peak?
Some parallels with SC2 given it’s had 2 expansions, a pre-Kespa era, a Kespa era and a post-Kespa era. Plus numerous shakeups of the overall global calendar, and latterly some stronger foreign players.
It’s bloomin difficult so it is! I think Serral (in a less pronounced way) has shown some of the best Starcraft we’ve seen, like Happy in WC3, but the Korean scene isn’t/wasn’t at the level of peak Kespa years. Maru’s won plenty of stuff and shown excellent Starcraft, but he’s played the entirety of the game and military didn’t intervene. Rogue brought home some big bacon, but he only started consistently taking home Code S titles in that weaker period. Mvp helped to invent modern Terran staples and was the best player of his era, but even if his wrists held up could he have kept up mechanically when Innovation and the Kespa players transitioned and figured out the game? What could a healthy Taeja or Rain have pulled off, or a scandal free Voldemort have done?
I mean I could go on, I do enjoy debating the finer points of the careers of all of these top players and it brings back a lot of good memories, good luck getting a definitive answer though
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On May 22 2023 10:32 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2023 05:50 uselless wrote:On May 21 2023 10:00 Itsxjoeyy wrote:On March 01 2023 10:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.
But it's Serral. Serral isn't above maru rogue or Mvp He’s def above them. Serral vs maru and rogue head to head is all you need to see This logic is so flawed; I don't agree with MVP at the very least, but if we are using h2h, then you might as well check his stats against Happy or Vortix Serral was a baby back then. Serral vs Maru, and Serral vs Rogue reflects their peak h2h
But people trying to argue that Maru has done a lot when he was literally a baby, against grown man, in a super competitive environment. And he keeps it going for a 10-year+ career which is very impressive.
Both Serral and Rogue start winning a lot around 2017 when there is a meta shift into the BLord Infestor. That doesnt de-value their achievement but some people like longevity excellence over peak dominance.
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I think the only way to end this is a best of 99 match between Maru and Serral with a lot of money on the line and throughout the year and a couple of patches
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On May 22 2023 20:38 Harris1st wrote:
I think the only way to end this is a best of 99 match between Maru and Serral with a lot of money on the line and throughout the year and a couple of patches
Make it a bo99 for each matchup, with every player playing both sides of it. Give them a year to practice all the races.
Someone produce this, i'll give away this spectacular idea for free.
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On May 21 2023 21:07 Akio wrote:
Jesus Christ can we stop with these GOAT conversations already? It's dumb in every sport, it's dumb in StarCraft. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's necessarily incorrect to say that e.g. Flash is the greatest BW player ever (although I'm not saying that a statement like that is true by default), but when you need to have these extended comparisons of titles (i.e. when the margins are noticeably more slim), you're just in for a never-ending circlejerk of fans of said players all making separate cases for their own favorite to be the most worthy. I mean for crying out loud, you can't even measure normal athletes from different eras properly and they play in the same teams, tournaments and formats year after year, decade after decade. But somehow StarCraft 2, a game with a 13 year history with 3 different expansions and countless balance patches, tournament structure, amount as well as format changes are supposed to make me believe that you can compare these top players of the game with each other in any comprehensive way.
I agree, but arguing about non-sensical rankings in sports is a much appreciated hobby for a LOT of people.
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EPT
