How do we measure GOATs without Korean SC2? - Page 2

Poopi

France12812 Posts

March 01 2023 07:11 GMT

#21

On March 01 2023 09:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Solution: don't measure GOATs. Means nothing. Boom.

But it's Serral.

Can’t even win in Europe despite a very low number of top players, could not win a single ZvZ series at the World Championship. I am not sure if people are trolling when they say Serral is the goat or if they genuinely believe it

tlnetuser108

83 Posts

March 01 2023 07:45 GMT

#22

On February 24 2023 21:30 Balnazza wrote:
Serral or Rogue take the cake, Maru without a WC-title is still not even close.

That being said: Just look towards other games. WC3 still has an active scene, got even a bit bigger after Reforged (the one really good thing it did actually), but even though Happy is wildly considered as the best player for years by now, you wouldn't really put him into the GOAT discussion. Moon, Sky, Grubby or Lyn for sure, but Happy? Not really.
Depending how this year goes, you could still take this year for full-value or not, but I'm sure the next years will see a transition. As a random example: If most koreans would retire and so would Serral and Reynor, which leads to Heromarine, Clem and MaxPax dominating the remaining scene for years, you still wouldn't consider either of them as a GOAT-candidate - even with Reynors impressive world championship resume so far.

Hard disagree. The GSL is way more prestigious than any world championship. Preparation style tournaments are inherently more difficult and require infinitely more skill than weekenders like Katowice. This is why Reynor, despite winning less than Serral, is more of a contender for GOAT than Serral is. At least he tried.

Beating GSL players outside of GSL is totally different than beating GSL players inside of GSL

Akio

Finland1838 Posts

March 01 2023 08:25 GMT

#23

On February 24 2023 08:38 Poopi wrote:
There is not enough of a scene for GOAT conversations anymore.
It’s Rogue or Maru depending on your criterion and what happens next is not really relevant given the recent news (+ KR scene has become really small anyways with the military services etc)

I think this is the case. And what makes these conversations difficult is the fact that most of these guys have been around for a long time; what is the cutoff where we can say that "ok the scene is too small for a tournament win to count towards someone's GOAT status". Like no one would discredit Maru's tournament victories from 2018 onwards because we already KNEW he was great, it just seems he found his stride during that time. But if let's say Oliveira now went and won everything there is to win in an insane streak, there would be people who say that on a historical basis, becoming truly great in an era with only a handful of contenders would not mean as much as, say, Mvp's dominance in WoL where the scene was more active. There's also the weird relationship of recency bias and the undeniable fact that pros get better all the time.

CicadaSC

United States1670 Posts

March 01 2023 08:48 GMT

#24

Imo it's serral. Would have loved to see him play in a season of gsl though

CicadaSC

United States1670 Posts

March 01 2023 08:50 GMT

#25

On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is no guarantee Maru or rogue would win every time either. The competition in eu is legitimate.

lechatnoir

386 Posts

March 01 2023 09:49 GMT

#26

GOAT conversations only exist to keep people like us busy during coffee breaks or this virtual pub that is a forum. ^^

We're not at THAT timespan yet but it's like, was the Murderer's Row baseball team of the 1920s the best ever? Who was a better player, Beckenbauer or Pele or C. Ronaldo?

From the, dunno, 10 players that are up for contention the goat is whoever you personally want it to be and the other guy is wrong.

Charoisaur

Germany15933 Posts

March 01 2023 11:06 GMT

#27

On March 01 2023 14:15 TossHeroes wrote:
Maru is already the cemented general consensus GOAT

Everyone else is just battling for 2nd place

Agreed

Charoisaur

Germany15933 Posts

March 01 2023 11:08 GMT

#28

On March 01 2023 17:50 CicadaSC wrote:

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There is no guarantee Maru or rogue would win every time either. The competition in eu is legitimate.

Maru has a way better record against Clem and Reynor than Serral

Xain0n

Italy3963 Posts

March 01 2023 12:03 GMT

#29

On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:

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Ridicolous take.

GOAT is about the achievements in one career, how could you think the winningnest(even leaving out his WCS/DH titles which indeed do have a weight) player in Sc2's history, the one with the best peak, the highest earner, the one with the best career win ratio, the most consistent in placements can't be taken into consideration when speaking of the greatest of all time?

You may say Serral can't be the GOAT because he has never played a Code S, I may counteract that never winning a World Championship in 13 years or winning big without any form of consistency also aren't signs of being the greatest.

dysenterymd

1211 Posts

March 01 2023 12:38 GMT

#30

On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:

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Online tournaments aren't an essential part of anyone's claim to GOATdom. And that second point is like saying Maru can't be the GOAT because he bombed out of IEM Katowice 2019 or Rogue can't be because the GOAT because he bombed out of a few GSLs, some bad results doesn't negate anyone's claim.

Anyways, I think Rogue is pretty clearly the GOAT at this point, he has the most complete resume (except for longevity, where Maru has him beat.) If competitive SC2 continues at a high level for a while longer Serral and Maru both might catch him, but sadly it doesn't look like we have that many great years left.

Drahkn

191 Posts

March 01 2023 12:50 GMT

#31

Maru is the GOAT, without question. His consistency over the years is unmatched, your Serral's and Rogues dominated typically in heavy zerg favored era's before they nerfed the living f out of the zerg race for quite a long time and they still remain the strongest performing race to this day.
If I recall correctly Maru won his first PREMIER Tournament in 2013..
Let that sink in for a moment.... now he has been a favorite to win any tournament he has been in ever since , rogue and serral don't even come REMOTELY close to achieving what Maru has achieved.

Earning's don't meet anything, it's about results and difficulty of tournaments you play in that determine what a player has achieved. Earning's are just a indicator.

Maru is to sc2 what Flash is to SC:BW

Gescom

Canada3374 Posts

March 01 2023 13:05 GMT

#32

>Maru is to sc2 what Flash is to SC:BW

Absolutely not. ;p
Flash is unshakeable. He's like a combination of Maru AND Serral.

Drahkn

191 Posts

March 01 2023 13:14 GMT

#33

On March 01 2023 22:05 Gescom wrote:
>Maru is to sc2 what Flash is to SC:BW

Absolutely not. ;p
Flash is unshakeable. He's like a combination of Maru AND Serral.

SC2 is way more volatile then SC:BW you can't compare it that way, anyway it does not matter. The point is Maru is the GOAT of SC2 just like Flash is the GOAT of SC:BW , why would you compare Flash and Maru skill they play 2 different games , like logic hello?

Poopi

France12812 Posts

March 01 2023 13:27 GMT

#34

On March 01 2023 22:05 Gescom wrote:
>Maru is to sc2 what Flash is to SC:BW

Absolutely not. ;p
Flash is unshakeable. He's like a combination of Maru AND Serral.

Flash could not do much in starcraft 2, and I would argue that INno would have become greater than Flash if they kept playing BW instead of switching to sc2.

CicadaSC

United States1670 Posts

March 01 2023 13:40 GMT

#35

On March 01 2023 22:27 Poopi wrote:

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Flash could not do much in starcraft 2, and I would argue that INno would have become greater than Flash if they kept playing BW instead of switching to sc2.

There's just no way to know that. Also inno is notorious for being lazy with his practice and just playing League. Unlikely.

Akio

Finland1838 Posts

March 01 2023 13:49 GMT

#36

On March 01 2023 18:49 lechatnoir wrote:
GOAT conversations only exist to keep people like us busy during coffee breaks or this virtual pub that is a forum. ^^

We're not at THAT timespan yet but it's like, was the Murderer's Row baseball team of the 1920s the best ever? Who was a better player, Beckenbauer or Pele or C. Ronaldo?

From the, dunno, 10 players that are up for contention the goat is whoever you personally want it to be and the other guy is wrong.

The thing with baseball is, at least you have weighted stats that take the era of play into consideration. When looking at hitting, the 1927 Yankees IS definitively the best team with 126 wRC+, which in simpler terms means they had a roughly 26% better offensive statline compared to the average team in 1927.

But with 1v1 games like StarCraft, it literally is all about winning or losing, because that's all that matters. In team sports you can measure individual success compared to team success, and average those individual numbers into a rough estimate of the team's expected performance. But with StarCraft it's like you can have the sickest micro in the world but if you lose that means you were lacking in some other department. The brutality is really charming, but then again it makes these, as you put it, coffee break conversations really frustrating because all you can really measure is the amount of winning they did in a vacuum.

Akio

Finland1838 Posts

March 01 2023 13:57 GMT

#37

On March 01 2023 21:50 Drahkn wrote:
Maru is to sc2 what Flash is to SC:BW

Can we stop these x is to SC2 what y is to BW points already? You can't even begin to compare performances of different players for these games because the other one gets balance patches. I'm the first one to admit I think Flash is incomparable with anyone in SC2 but the skillsets required are just so different in an ever-changing game vs a stable one.

Starcloud

137 Posts

March 01 2023 14:51 GMT

#38

On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:

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But Maru cant win anything outside of Korea, and people here actually consider him the goat ? Its pretty much a fight between Rogue and Serral, but since Rogues wins have been pretty sloppy and Serral has his number, its pretty obvious that the only right answer is ;

Serral

Pandain

United States12989 Posts

March 01 2023 15:39 GMT

#39

On March 01 2023 16:11 Poopi wrote:

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The case for Serral is that he looked absolutely untouchable from early 2018 to early 2019, and didn't lose a series for like 11 months?, two time world champion, and overall for probably 65% of LOTV has been the scariest player.

Maru is great and he's my GOAT, but failing to win a single (!!!) offline international tournament is an absolutely massive failure for any GOAT candidate. That's not something you can just ignore, and makes it almost impossible to consider him a a clear, no arguments GOAT.

Then there are obvious cases for Rogue and in my opinion even Innovation as the best player when competition was the fiercest.

Drahkn

191 Posts

March 01 2023 16:03 GMT

#40

On March 01 2023 22:57 Akio wrote:

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Why? It's a perfect example, both games will have 1 GOAT so why would you not use it as an example